WhatsApp Discussion Series 34: "KAAYAGNI" by Vd. Bharat Padher, Vd. Bhooshan Bhakkad, Dr. Dinesh Katoch, Prof. Deep Narayan Pandeya, Dr. Pankaj Chhayani, Dr. Pawan Madan, Vd. Radheshyam Soni, Vd. Rupesh Vadher, Dr. Raghuram Bhatta and others.

[3/7, 13:43] pawan madan Dr: 

Namaskaar all..

There is a discussion going on in another group.

There are few unanswered quesrions...

...क्या रक्ताग्नि  वृद्धि  से रक्त क्षय होना अवश्यम्भावी है ?

...क्या धात्वग्नि अपनी अपनी धातु पर कार्य करती है ?

या

जैसे रक्ताग्नि रसधातु पर कार्य करके  उसको  रक्त धातु मे परिवर्तित करती है ?

....धात्वग्नि की जानकारी होना चिकित्सा करने के लिये क्यु जरुरी है ?

Please give your opinions.

Deep Pandey sir

Pancholi sir

Surinder ji

and all respected members..

[3/7, 15:34] Dr L M Joshi:

 agree with you sir.

[3/7, 16:00] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey: 

Thank you Dr. Pawan Madaan ji, let me make an attempt to submit sequentially on your questions (with a caveat that as I do not practice chikitsa, you may wish to wait for the view of other colleagues) 

To begin with, Agni is responsible for conversion of food into energy, which finally serves vital functions of sharira. Dehagni is the cause of life, complexion, strength, health, nourishment, lusture, oja, teja and prana. 

(may kindly see,  च.चि. 15.3): 

*आयुर्वर्णो बलं स्वास्थ्यमुत्साहोपचयौ प्रभा|* 

*ओजस्तेजोऽग्नयः प्राणाश्चोक्ता देहाग्निहेतुकाः||*

[3/7, 16:00] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey: 

Once the agni becomes “shant” (i.e., after Agni ceases to function, the person becomes “shant” (i.e., dies). When the Agni of an individual is sama, the person should be healthy (provided other parameters as given by Acharya Sushrut in his definition of swasthya are also as required), and would lead a long, happy, healthy life. If, however, Agni is vitiated, the metabolism would be bad, and shall bring ill-health ill health and disease. Agni, therefore, is root of life. 

(may kindly see,  च.चि. 15.4): 

*शान्तेऽग्नौ म्रियते युक्ते चिरं जीवत्यनामयः|* 

*रोगी स्याद्विकृते मूलमग्निस्तस्मान्निरुच्यते||*

[3/7, 16:13] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey: 

Maharshi Charaka notes 13 Agnis: Jatharagni --1, Bhutagni -- 5, Dhatvagni -- 7. This division, to me seems to be based on the function of each Agni (i.e., 13 types as per function and the site of action). Jatharagni, 1, seated in the stomach and duodenum, Bhutagni, 5, in panchmahabhootas, Dhatwagni, 7, one each residing in seven dhatus.

[3/7, 16:16] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:

 Other Acharyas have differed in terms of numbers etc., which you are surely aware. So not getting in to that here, and will make an attempt to the questions you noted, above.

[3/7, 16:31] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:

 Jatharagni directly helps Dhatvagni in the metabolic processes of body cells, with Dhatu-Paka. Indeed, Dhatvagnis are dependent on good Jatharagni. In the event/situation of Teekshan or Manda Jatharagni it will have consequences for Dhatvagni accordingly. Thus, disturbed jatharagni = disturbed dhatvagni, and thus disorders. Jatharagni actually controls the function of all other Agnis. All Agnis are dependent on the state of affairs of the Jatharagni. 

(may kindly refer, च.चि. 15.39-40).

*अन्नस्य पक्ता सर्वेषां पक्तॄणामधिपो मतः|* 

*तन्मूलास्ते हि तद्वृद्धिक्षयवृद्धिक्षयात्मकाः||*

*तस्मात्तं विधिवद्युक्तैरन्नपानेन्धनैर्हितैः|* 

*पालयेत् प्रयतस्तस्य स्थितौ ह्यायुर्बलस्थितिः||*

[3/7, 17:00] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi: 

Well said

[3/7, 17:02] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey: 

7 Dhatus (7 tissues) have 7 Agnis to finally metabolize nutrients taken to them through their respective Srotas. Each Dhatvagni (we may call them bioenergy) present in each Dhatu actually synthesizes/transforms necessary Rasa Dhatu needed for that specific Dhatu, from the basic nutrients present in the anna rasa (obtained from the Ahara. Each Dhatvagni specializes in targeted synthesis and transformation of the constituents appropriate to its specific Dhatu (actually alike to them).

[3/7, 17:24] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:

 With the above description,  some of the questions are clear from the Ayurveda perspective (except the first one, also copied below):

...क्या रक्ताग्नि वृद्धि  से रक्त क्षय होना अवश्यम्भावी है ?

(मेरे विचार से नहीं)

...क्या धात्वग्नि अपनी अपनी धातु पर कार्य करती है ?

या

जैसे रक्ताग्नि रसधातु पर कार्य करके उसको  रक्त धातु मे परिवर्तित करती  है ?

(जैसा की ऊपर वर्णित है, सम्बंधित अग्नि, सम्बंधित धातु पर कार्य करते हुये, सम्बंधित धातु का संश्लेषण ही करती है)

....धात्वग्नि की जानकारी होना चिकित्सा करने के लिये क्यु जरुरी है?

(इसमें मेरा विचार भिन्न है--- पहली बात तो यह है कि जठराग्नि की ठोस जानकारी, आयुर्वेद के सिद्धांतों के अनुरूप, समझने और तदनुसार युक्तियुक्त चिकित्सा बेहद कारगर रहती है, क्योंकि सब की माई-बाप जठराग्नि ही है--जैसा कि ऊपर वर्णित है| दूसरी बात, मॉडर्न बायोमेडीकल साइंस के क्लिनिकल इन्वेस्टीगेशन अन्य मसलों में अधिक सटीक रहते हैं--हालाँकि मॉडर्न बायोमेडीकल साइंस जठराग्नि के मानदंडों को ठीक से समझ नहीं  पाया आजतक)

[3/7, 17:58] pawan madan Dr: 

अति धन्यवाद सर..

[3/7, 18:00] pawan madan Dr: 

This means respective dhatvagnis are an integral part of the respective dhaatus.

[3/7, 18:01] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:

 absolutely true, and yet they depend on jatharagni

[3/7, 18:06]  Dr. P.C. Mangal: 

In jatharagni HCl  play a major role for initiation of digestion.

[3/7, 18:22] Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik: 

चिकित्सा मे २ हि भाग/मार्ग है; कोष्ठ और शाखा मर्मास्थी संधी; इसलिये जब कोष्ठ का व्याधी न हो या कोष्ठ अच्छा हो गया हो तब धात्वग्नी और उनके आशय का ज्ञान बहोत जरूरी है !

[3/7, 18:23] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey: 

[3/7, 18:30] shekhar singh MP: 

धात्वग्नि की वृद्धि या क्षय, सम्बंधित धातु की क्षय/वृद्धि से अनुमान की जा सकती है। 

जैसे जठराग्नि का अनुमान पाचन शक्ति से किया जाता है।

[3/7, 19:46] S A Soni: 

[3/7, 19:46] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi: 

[3/7, 19:53] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Jatharagni is not a supreme Agni...Kayagni is supreme and other Agni are controlled by Kayagni... The aim of Kayachikitsa is to correct Kayagni not Jatharagni.  Kayagni is  neglected by Ayurved fraternity, although it is main among all Agni

[3/7, 19:59] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi: 

All types of agni can be controlled with 

Equilibrium of 

Aahar-- total intake of various type of meal

Vihar--- daily level of workout/ exertion

Nindra--- sound sleep or insomnia.

[3/7, 20:07] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:

 धन्यवाद डॉक्टर साहबl 

सन्दर्भ साझा करने हेतु आग्रह है

[3/7, 20:07] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey: 

[3/7, 20:09] Shivam Sinwar Gngangr: 

[3/7, 20:23] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Astang hriday sutra sthan ...

Kayagni shu ya ansha.....slok

[3/7, 20:27] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

In samhita no any word used as synonym to give literary aspect to samhita...every word has its own importance and meaning.

Knowledge gained by Direct reference is just gross knowledge. Actual in depth knowledge of samhita can be achieved by understanding and applying Tantran vidhi, tantrayukti, tachchhilya and Panch Avayava vakya which are the basic tools to understand and catch the deep and real meaning g of Sutra.

[3/7, 20:30] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Agni can be in normal condition only by Samyak Pragya..

[3/7, 20:30] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:

 Thank you again, and that indeed I am aware of, but have a different view. Let us hope we may meet some day to discuss about the issue

[3/7, 20:30] S A Soni: 

[3/7, 20:31] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Sure, sir...I will be very happy to meet u and discuss with u..

[3/7, 20:31] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:

 

[3/7, 20:44] S A Soni: 

Namaskaar all..

There is a discussion going on in another group.

There are few unanswered quesrions...

...क्या रक्ताग्नि वृद्धि  से रक्त क्षय होना अवश्यम्भावी है ?

*(It will depend on generalised Agni condition like hyperthyroidism, bhasmak not individual Raktagni only.* 

*My small understanding.)*

...क्या धात्वग्नि अपनी अपनी धातु पर कार्य करती है ?

या

जैसे रक्तग्नि रसधातु पर कार्य करके उसको  रक्त धातु मे परिवर्तित करती  है ?

*(Dhatwagni is act of normal sam-praman dhatu(karya-roop) to produce next dhatu.* 

*Swadhatu is 'karan' of dhatwagni.)*

....धात्वग्नि की जानकारी होना चिकित्सा करने के लिये क्यु जरुरी है?

*(कायो नाम अग्नि तस्य चिकित्सा काय चिकित्सा ।।))

*आदरणीय आचार्य पवन महोदय ।**

Great interpretation by Prof pandey Sir.

[3/7, 20:53] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey: 

Just sending two pages, from AH, for your consideration along with the टीका. 

It is always a pleasure to meet, not to prove anything, but to understand the reality. 

I have a deep respect for AH, and yet would first attempt finding truth within चरक and सुश्रुत. In both these Samhitas, as far as I have understood (but accept with humility that I continue to remain a student), kayagni has a different meaning even after passing through the great scruitney of Tantrayukti. 

But it would be great to meet even if we continue to disagree 

[3/7, 20:54] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:

  Thank you indeed Prof. S. A. Soni ji 

[3/7, 20:57] S A Soni: 

[3/7, 21:04] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

 Sir it is not the problem with u only ,it is a generalized problem for Ayurveda. Till now I was also not confirm that to whom   mieniers disease should be compared as per Ayurveda ? Now I became more confirm about my doubt that modern science is not a reliable one. They can deviate a lot from their own concept.

[3/7, 21:12] Bharat Padhar Vd:

 "Most the commentators of Ayurved Samhita were not vaidya practicing Ayurved...they were only Pandit. Commentators are not considered as a Apta purush..." are the auspicious words of my respected Guru HG Surani Sir.. He was the life time learner of Charak Samhita and Pure Ayurved practicener.. He once told me to explain that quote of Astang hruday and I explained him as commentators explained and argued with him to prove my self as correct as well as prove commentators correct. But after long discussion and so many reference he made me to realise his view and after that my sight of reading  samhita changed.. Now i always read samhita without help of tika , so that I can not get influenced by thinking of commentators.. what I understand, i try to put in practice and experience my self it's reliability..which give me more satisfaction of reading and understanding samhita.

[3/7, 21:14] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

It's very difficult by whatsapp to discuss Agni in detail.. but whenever we have to meet in future we will share our views with each other.

[3/7, 21:14] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:

  most welcome

[3/7, 21:17] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

As per references available in different texts and commentary, all states Kayagni as a Jatharagni.. but if so than what was the need of mentioning word Kayagni...?

[3/7, 21:18] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

If kay Agni considered as Jatharagni than the scope of Kayachikitsa will be limited up to Jatharagni. Then what's about Bhutagni and Dhatvagni ??

[3/7, 21:20] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:

 From one perspective, that the काया itself can be argued as अग्नि. 

Do you recall any direct reference of Kayagni in Charak or Sushrut in the text? Just making another attempt to understand 

[3/7, 21:22] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:

 And, with a great respect to the statement given by your Hon'ble Guru ji, चक्रपाणि was a great वैद्य indeed. 

[3/7, 21:27] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:

 *चक्रपाणि, who wrote टीका on चरक, as well as many other original works, including Chakradatta

[3/7, 21:44] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad: 

It seems true. Chakrapani was great Vaidya. Chakrapani is also Aapta,there is no doubt.

[3/7, 21:45] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:

 

[3/7, 22:00] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Sorry to stretching this issue regarding commentators and Kayagni with all learned persons, but I again want to say that it's not enough to write any book and  comment on any classics to be Apta and Pranabhisara Vaidya. So many misleading commentories by Chakrapani and other commentators which deviate the Ayurved learners from truth. My these words looks like exaggerated and expressing me Superior than these commentators, but I humbly believe it's not so. Whatever truth i understood and experienced in my practices before u. My opinion was not to prove my self right or any one wrong.  But I put a new way, if any one wants to search and find truth from that way and can follow it, otherwise every one have their own way to follow. It was a time when I was also strong supporter of Chakrapani and other commentators. When I heard about them that their opinions are not always true, i had so much to not believe that. But after a long journey of learning samhita i realised that the words of my Guru were 100% right.. i was not eligible at that time to understand him.

[3/7, 22:05] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:

 ज्ञान की सीमाएँ अनंत हैं, और 

न चैव ह्यस्ति सुतरमायुर्वेदस्यपारं..... 

Let us agree to disagree

[3/7, 22:05] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Whenever I start to teach my students i start my lecture from Kayagni, Bhutagni, Dhatvagni and Jatharagni. The difference between four type of Agni and their clinical utility. I also explain about the misinterpretation of slok by commentators. It requires minimum 3-4 hours to describe in detail to make palatable. Not possible to explain it in detail by text messages

[3/7, 22:06] S A Soni: 

उपपत्तिं दर्शयितुं सम्प्राप्तिरुच्यते। संसृष्टा इति युग्मभूताः। सन्निपतिता इति त्रयोऽपि मिलिताः। पक्तिमिति पक्तिहेतुतया जाठराग्निं ब्रूते। स्थानादिति ग्रहण्याः, ग्रहणी हि जाठराग्निस्थानम्। स्वेनेति दोषोष्मणा; तेनेति जाठराग्न्यूष्मणा। देहोष्मण इति सकलदेहचारिणः प्राकृतोष्मणः। वातश्लेष्मणोस्तु यद्यपि पित्तवदुष्मा नास्ति, तथाऽपि तयोर्भूतत्वेन ऊष्मा योऽस्ति, स इह ग्राह्यः; वक्तव्यं हि ग्रहण्यध्याये- भौमाप्याग्नेयवायव्याः पञ्चोष्माणः सनाभसाः (चि.अ.१५) इति। किंवा, तेनेत्यनेन दिव्यरूपज्वराधिष्ठानप्रभावकृतं दोषाणामूष्माणं ग्राहयति; किंवा, ज्वरसामान्यसम्प्राप्तिप्राप्तपित्तोष्माणं निदर्शयति॑ (अथवानिर्दिशति इति, निर्देशयति इति च पाठः !), सर्वत्र हि ज्वरे पित्तमवश्यं भवति; यदुक्तं- ऊष्मा पित्तादृते नास्ति ज्वरो नास्त्यूष्मणा विना (वा.चि.अ.१) इति। केवलमिति समस्तम्॥१२९-१३१॥

Dr Bharat

This may helpful.

चक्रपाणि on ch chi 3/129-131

[3/7, 22:09] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey: 

[3/7, 22:12] pawan madan Dr: 

Thank You sir.

But this seems not so simple.

[3/7, 22:13] pawan madan Dr:

 Agree. 

[3/7, 22:14] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad: 

Pawanji, its something like अंधगजन्याय

[3/7, 22:15] pawan madan Dr: 

New way of thinking.

Dr Anupama is a strong supporter of this way in our group.

Need to keep open our eyes.

We shouldnt believe blindly.

But then for this to accomplish sanskrit language in deep is must.

[3/7, 22:18] Dr. Dinesh Katoch sir: 

Interesting queries about Raktagni!.  In fact Raktagni acts on Raktotapadak ansh of aahar ras (adya dhatu ras not on poshya dhatu ras) to form Rakta dhatu. Here Ksheer- Dadhi Nyaye is applicable.  Raktagni vriddhi atipaak of raktotpadak (poshak rakta) ansh to cause kshaye of poshya  rakta dhatu. Here the principle of dhatgni vridhi leads to kshaye of that dhatu and dhatwagnimandya leads to vridhi (aprakrit or saam)    of that dhatu is applicable.  In modern medicine terms microcytic anemia and macrocytic -hypochromic anemia are equivalents of raktaagni vridhi and raktagni kshaye respectively.

[3/7, 22:24] Dr. Dinesh Katoch sir: 

Clear understanding of status of dhatwagni helps to hit the nail on head i.e right prescription of drugs and pathya-apathya to the  patients.

[3/7, 22:26] Dr. Dinesh Katoch sir: 

Eyes do not see what brain (mind) does not know. Holistic knowledge is required to explain a thought/idea clearly.

[3/7, 22:29] pawan madan Dr: 

Useful explantion.

One shankaa only...

Raktagni present in rakta dhaatu helps to transform poshak rakta dhaatu into poshya rakta dhaatu....

so if raktagni is more......it should speed up this conversion ......resulting in more formation of poshya rakta dhaatu......

It seems I am confused...

[3/7, 22:30] S A Soni: 

[3/7, 22:31] S A Soni:

Well interpretation Sir !!

[3/7, 22:31] pawan madan Dr: 

[3/7, 22:32] S A Soni: 

[3/7, 22:34] pawan madan Dr: 

Or

Vridha raktagni uses all the poshak rakta dhaatu to something else and poshya rasa dhaatu formation is spared.....!!!!!!!

[3/7, 22:35] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad: 

If Raktagni tranforms Rakta dhatu into Mansa dhatu, then its possible that Raktagni vriddhi leads Rakta dhatu Kshaya and Raktangni mandya leads Rakta dhatu vriddhi

[3/7, 22:35] pawan madan Dr: 

[3/7, 22:39] Dr. Dinesh Katoch sir: 

In Bhasmak Roga where Jathragni is tiksna (vriddh) what happens is more and fast digestion leading to kshaye of all dhatus not more poshan of dhatus. Same principle applies to dhatwagni.

[3/7, 22:40] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad:

  I think proper word is तिक्ष्णाग्नि. Charaka has not used Bhasmaka word.

[3/7, 22:41] pawan madan Dr: True sir.

Thats why I asked increased raktagni cause the increased metabolism of poshak rakta dhaatu and spares its own formation...

[3/7, 22:41] Radheshyam Soni  dr: 

कुछ तो संदेहास्पद है सर, इस तथ्य में

[3/7, 22:41] pawan madan Dr: 

[3/7, 22:43] Radheshyam Soni dr: 

रसाग्नि का कार्य यदि रस धातु का निर्माण है तो रसाग्नि की वृद्धि रस धातु का क्षय कैसे करेगी। हाँ उत्तरोत्तर धातु क्षय संभव है !

[3/7, 22:43] Dr. Dinesh Katoch sir: 

Must have clarity about Dhatu Nirman and Dhatu Poshan to understand Dhatwagni functioning and the outcomes.

[3/7, 22:44] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad: अत्यग्नि

[3/7, 22:44] pawan madan Dr: 

This is the question being raised by many in other group also.

[3/7, 22:48] Radheshyam Soni dr: 

अग्नि का कार्य सार किट्ट विभाजन है।

यदि रसाग्नि का कार्य देखें तो वो जठराग्नि के उत्पाद पे है ना कि रस धातु पर। 

रसाग्नि की क्रिया स्वरूप रस धातु निर्माण और किट्ट निर्माण होगा। 

अब प्रश्न यह है कि रसाग्नि की क्रिया से सम्पूर्ण जठराग्नि उत्पाद रस धातु और किट्ट में परिणत होता है, या इस का कोई अंश उत्तर धातु निर्माणार्थ अलग शेष रहेगा।

मेरी समझ में ये आता है कि पूर्ण रूप से ही परिणति होती है। क्षीर दधि न्यायानुसार।

और फिर प्राप्त रस धातु पर रक्ताग्नि की क्रिया से किट्ट और रक्त धातु का निर्माण भी क्षीर दधि न्यायानुसार ही होना चाहिए।

[3/7, 22:54] Dr. Dinesh Katoch sir:

Dhatwagni vridhi ya kshaye ka parinaam upadaan dhatu (poshak dhatu) ke parinaman mein kramsha poshya dhatu kshaye ya saam (aprakrit) vridhi ke rup mein parilakshit hota hai.

[3/7, 23:02] Shivam Sinwar Gngangr: 

[3/7, 23:12] Trivendra Sharma Jpr: 

Rasagni nahi jathragni aahar se ras dhatu ka Nirman karti hai  .

[3/7, 23:19] Radheshyam Soni dr:

 

जठराग्नि आहार पर क्रिया कर आद्य रस और किट्ट विभजन का कार्य करती है, और उस आद्य रस पर रसाग्नि की क्रिया से रस धातु का निर्माण होता है, ऐसा मुझे समझ आया।

[3/7, 23:42] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

The process of Dhatu poshan and formation is very complex, i try to explain in brief, 

Eg of raktdhatvagni do two function,

 1) it convert rakt poshan part of Adhya ras Dhatu into sthul rakt Dhatu 

2) it transform sthul rakt Dhatu into suksham - Saar rup rakt Dhatu...that sudden get caught by next dhatvagni mans dhatvagni and it convert that suksham rakt into sthayi mans Dhatu with help of sthul mansa and Shukra Dhatu.

If rakt dhatvagni become more dipt, conversation of rakt poshak ans of  ras into sthul rakt becomes fast and same way conversation of sthul rakt into suksham rakt become fast, so overall production of suksham rakt is more, but it get caught by next dhatvagni mans dhatvagni and utilise it to form manas Dhatu..resulting in net reduction of rakt. 

Contrary to it we can understand the process of Rakt dhatvagni mandhya and rakt vruddhi

[3/8, 00:15] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

Thank u dr Bharat for accepting this truth, which I always try to explain.

[3/8, 00:21] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

Thank u sir for quote me here. No doubt sanskrit language is essential but as per my understanding, practical thinking is more essential than this. One can take the help of sanskrit vidwaan to fulfil his or her deficiency but cannot take any help for practical realisation. One should experienced it himself or herself.

[3/8, 00:31] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

Ayurved theory is the ultimate and developed theory. Other theory may reach up to this but cannot exceed.

[3/8, 00:32] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

[3/8, 00:36] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

  very nice, elaborated and authentic explanations sir !

[3/8, 00:40] shekhar singh MP: 

Chakrapaani is Silent, when ever It's highly required to comment. 

ok, It's not possible to detail here, but could you please give some references regarding कायाग्नि 

[3/8, 00:51] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Already Prof. Deep Pandey sir have posted in group the references regarding Kayagni.

[3/8, 01:09] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Direct textual references are the primary knowledge delivery system while textural references + Tantran Vidhi is secondary knowledge delivery system which provide very fine knowledge. First one provide shabda bodh while second one gives tatva bodh. So it's not possible to provide exact reference for the information which produced with help of Tantran vidhi.

If u try to understand use Tantran vidhi, u will not ask for exact references. Exact textual reference is only possible for that knowledge which in form of Shabdarth not Tatvarth.

Tatva Ava bodh can make us  enable to practice Ayurved efficiently and confidently. Shabdarth can make us good pandit or sambhasaka not a Vaidhya

[3/8, 06:32] Manu Vats Dr Patiala:

  Thanks to Dr Pawan Madaan for opening debate on very fundamental principal of Ayurveda regarding physiology.....rather I would say APPLIED OR CLINICAL PHYSIOLOGY ...and other learned persons who provided their valuable inputs....

[3/8, 06:39] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey: 

[3/8, 06:44] Dr. Dinesh Katoch sir: 

Ayurveda is also like this, you can not realize what and how our ancestral Rishis conceptualized Ayurveda concepts, principles and theories. 

[3/8, 06:47] Manu Vats Dr Patiala: 

Very true

[3/8, 07:08] pawan madan Dr: 

Good mng....

Nothing for now sir.

But still things are processing. May come up later if any doudt comes.

[3/8, 07:09] pawan madan Dr: 

[3/8, 07:10] pawan madan Dr: 

But somehow we need to reach a little close to their understanding to *AYURVEDA IN PRACTICE*.

[3/8, 07:10] pawan madan Dr:

 *to do ayurveda in practice..

[3/8, 07:32] Radheshyam Soni dr:

  प्रातः कालीन अभिवादनोंपरांत मेरा कुछ निवेदन है,

1, यदि आद्य रस पर रक्ताग्नि की क्रिया मानी जाए तो फिर रसाग्नि का क्या कार्य है?

2, यदि हम रक्त पोषक और मांस पोषक रूप से आहार घटक को बांटेंगे तो फिर इस अवस्था में क्षीर दधि न्याय की अपेक्षा खले कपोतन्याय को ही प्रधानता देनी पड़ेगी क्योकि इस स्थिति में सर्वात्मना परिणति नहीं होगी।

3, धत्वग्नि वृद्धि से उत्तर धातु का क्षय होना चाहिये न की उसी धातु का

[3/8, 07:47] Trivendra Sharma Jpr: 

Ras k tej ya rasagni se to ras  se rakta banega.

[3/8, 07:59] Dr. Dinesh Katoch sir:

 Definitely clear understanding, not hypothetical conceptualization, is important to practice and apply original Ayurveda.

[3/8, 09:23] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Answer of questions 

1) functions of Rasagni can be understood as I mentioned for Rakt agni.

2) All 4 Dhatu poshan nyaya are functioning together not any single. All nyaya are correct and their combined effect is responsible for Dhatu poshan and Dhatu utpadan

[3/8, 09:47] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

All the concepts of Ayurved classics are applied. Theory of concept becomes apllied by Vidhya, Vitarka, Vigyan and Smruti, tatparata kriya. 

Any of above step is not there in person, concept remain theory for that individual. If we follow above steps every concepts we can apply.

[3/8, 09:50] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

When we feel that some concepts are more theoretical, it means we need to go in depth of that point and try to reach at the stage where we can able to see as apllied

[3/8, 10:46] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:

Brilliant! 

[3/8, 11:12] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey: 

विद्या वितर्को विज्ञानं स्मृतिः तत्परता क्रिया ।

यस्यैते षड्गुणास्तस्य नासाध्यमतिवर्तते ॥

विद्या, तर्कशक्ति, विज्ञान, स्मृतिशक्ति, तत्परता, और कार्यशीलता, ये छे जिसके पास हैं, उसके लिए कुछ भी असाध्य नहीं !

[3/8, 13:10] Dr. Dinesh Katoch sir: 

अग्नि ईन्धन को जलाकर खाद्य सामग्री का  पाक करती है। परन्तु उसी अग्नि के उग्र होने पर ईन्धन तो जलता है पर साथ में खाद्य सामग्री भी जलने लगती है, पकने नहीं । ऐसा ही धात्वग्नि के उग्र होने पर उस उस धातु का निर्माण और पोषण प्रभावित होता है। रसाग्नि के उग्र होने पर उपादान रस सामग्री (आहार रस) से स्थायी  (पोष्य) रसधातु  का क्षय होगा नकि अधिक रस निर्माण ।

[3/8, 13:49] pawan madan Dr: 

[3/8, 13:51] Radheshyam Soni dr: 

 बस 1 प्रश्न

फिर उपधातु निर्माण में क्या प्रक्रिया है?

[3/8, 14:12] shekhar singh MP: 

प्रसाद किट्ट विभाजन पश्चात,

 प्रसाद के दो भाग होते हैं, 

स्थूल भाग स्व पोषण करता है (इसी से उपधातु का निर्माण/पोषण होगा)

सूक्ष्म भाग पर उत्तर धातु की अग्नि की क्रिया होकर उत्तर धातु निर्माण होता है।

[3/8, 14:15] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad: 

[3/8, 14:17] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad:

Increased Raktagni➡ decrease Sthayi rakta

Decreased Raktagni➡increase Sthayi rakta

[3/8, 14:18] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad:

Sthayi= unchangeable

Asthayi= Changeable

[3/8, 14:42] Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik:

 Ahar ras - dhatu crk Su 28/4 khalekapot nyay

Ras-rakt- mans- so on crk chi 15/16 kedari kulya nyay

Dhatu- updhatu crk chi 15/17 kshir dadhi nyay.. 

Aur mal to Upar aa hi gye hai..

This is what I perspect Frm Samhita.. all 3 nyay work at a time.

[3/8, 17:22] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

[3/8, 17:51] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

As per my understanding kayagni cannot be separate one. It should be considered as a synonyms for jatharagni.

[3/8, 18:13] ayurmitra KSR Prasad Ay pith:

 How you have drawn this conclusion madam.?

[3/8, 18:53] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

As you wish madam. Everyone have freedom to think and believe independently.

[3/8, 18:57] shekhar singh MP: 

Please try to make others understand your view about कायाग्नि।

purpose of this group is to exchange thoughts.

[3/8, 19:01] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Agni which is responsible for Sharir, indriyas, Sarva  Atma Sanyoga is Kayagni. It's presents all over the body. When it do it's function in Jathar called Jatharagni, in Dhatu called Dhatvagni, in mahabhut called Mahabhut Agni, and in remaining parts it's known as only Kayagni.

[3/8, 19:02] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

4 chapters of swasthvrutta Chatusk  are aimed to maintain Jatharagni, Dhatvagni, Bhutagni and Kayagni in normal status respectively.

[3/8, 19:03] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

Dr Bharat perhaps u are telling as per this reference?

Please tell me the reference?

[3/8, 19:03] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Not..as per above reference..

[3/8, 19:05] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Please read my previously sent message about references:

Direct textual references are the primary knowledge delivery system while textural references + Tantran Vidhi is secondary knowledge delivery system which provide very fine knowledge. First one provide shabda bodh while second one gives tatva bodh. So it's not possible to provide exact reference for the information which produced with help of Tantran vidhi.

If u try to understand use Tantran vidhi, u will not ask for exact references. Exact textual reference is only possible for that knowledge which in form of Shabdarth not Tatvarth.

Tatva Ava bodh can make us  enable to practice Ayurved efficiently and confidently. Shabdarth can make us good pandit or sambhasaka not a Vaidhya

[3/8, 19:06] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

Is there anything left in the body except mahabhoot ?

[3/8, 19:06] Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik:

How many dhatus are there in human body?? 

Most of the ayurved scholars will ans 7 for this, which is not sufficient or partly correct. 

There are 24 dhatu in our body. Reference crk sharir.

Without mind, atma, panchtanmatra, etc all our body can't survive.

Dosh, 7 dhatus, mal are pancha mahabhut vikar only.. ayurved nd 24 dhatvatmk purush is above that.. 

Kayagni controller of whole 24 dhatvtmk purush.

[3/8, 19:06] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

19 things left

Which I m trying to point out

[3/8, 19:07] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

[3/8, 19:07] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

We are waiting

[3/8, 19:09] Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik: 

Ye to Bhot Thoda part hai.. panchmahabhut, atma to sab me hai.. Vo agni hi hai jo Hme Aur anya nirjiv logo se alg karata hai, kriyavan banata hai. Atma to nishkriy hai..

[3/8, 19:10] Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik: 

Ye 24 dhatuye madmji.. sharir sthan wali

[3/8, 19:11] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Avyakt, Mahat, ahankar, 11 indriyas, panch tanmatra and 5 mahabhut= 24

[3/8, 19:13] S A Soni: 

Very good Dr Bharat and Dr Bhooshan for your valuable interpretation.

Yesterday I gave you jwar samprati reference with chakra pani teeka , off course you may not agree with him but he commented very well on Jwar samprati described by Charak.

There is indication of  'kaayagni' given clearly by charak.

[3/8, 19:17] S A Soni: 

Literally you are correct but clinically these types of concepts make confusion.

Students need clear description. Again the other concept of 7 dhatus like individual agni, up dhatu, malas etc are not applicable as it is for 24.

Higher Philosophical level interpretation is ok.

[3/8, 19:18] Radheshyam Soni dr: 

[3/8, 19:19] Manu Vats Dr Patiala: 

Sir I have a query.....As per Sushrut sutra sthan ch14.....Dhatu defined as Dharan and poshan...which are 7 in number  whereas Sir updhatu can't be taken as Dhatu being property of only dharan not poshan.....and as also if we go through this chapter in details....concept of  Raktdhatu and raktagni comes out to be the Most important......your  comments Sir

[3/8, 19:21] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Confusion is first step towards new invention.

[3/8, 19:22] Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik:

 Crk also gives equal imp to rakt that's why in Yojna chatushk he placed vidhi shonitiy.

[3/8, 19:22] S A Soni: 

Just cared beginners.

I already said.

Some how clinical significance is very important as per time.

[3/8, 19:23] Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik:

Aur dhatu 24 hai Ye me khudse to nhi keh rha hu.. Ab mind k bina kisi ka dharan kaise ho sakta hai.. Jitna rakt imp hai utna mind, karm endriy, etc san b jaruri hai.

[3/8, 19:23] Radheshyam Soni dr:

 @डॉ भारत

चतुर्विंशती तत्व माने हैं चरक ने ना कि धातु।

शब्दों को बदल देने से संशय उत्पन्न हो जायेगा।

और आत्मा निष्क्रिय है किंतु मन उसे क्रिया देता है ना कि अग्नि।

कायाग्नि का जिक्र शब्दोत्पत्ति प्रक्रिया में मन के साथ आया है---

*मनः कायाग्निमाहन्ति स प्रेरयति मारुतः।।*------

[3/8, 19:24] Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik:

Kaha tatv hai sirji..?? Direct shabdo me dhatu to bola hai.

[3/8, 19:25] Bharat Padhar Vd:

Ya ... Sir u are absolutely right.. I should care for beginners so, i have tried to quit further detail discussion on Kayagni, but a group member make me initiate discussion on such topic.

[3/8, 19:26] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

[3/8, 19:26] Manu Vats Dr Patiala: 

Sir...but your initiative is eye opener for many ....including myself and may be many other silent members

[3/8, 19:27] Bharat Padhar Vd:

 if so, my efforts will be successful..

[3/8, 19:28] Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik:

But es way se clinical practice karne wale to Kafi vaidya mitra hai gujrat me.

[3/8, 19:32] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

What is sad dhatvak purush??

If u can understand it, u can get answer why 24 elements are called Dhatu.

[3/8, 19:34] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Dosh , Dhatu , mal etc bahot sthul and superficial entities hai.. Ayurved ko real me samajne k liye suruat Suksham sarir se karani chahie.

[3/8, 19:35] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Suksham sharir me hone vaale parivartan ka manifestation Dosh, Dhatu mal it yadi pe hota hai...mul pakado ... Rasta aasan ho jayega

[3/8, 19:37] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Bade dukh ki baat hai ki logo ne atma man indriyas ahankar it yadi ko philosophical aspect samaj kar practice me lane ka prayatn bandh kar diya... otherwise Ayurved ke din bahot achchhe hote.

[3/8, 19:42] S A Soni: 

Yes !!

 I know many vaidyas. But being admin I want a little clinical significance for all.

I completely agree about your view.

[3/8, 19:43] rupesh bhai dr: 

General practice or family physician ka view hai 

24 tatva or 6 dhatu or 7 dhatu .... Everything depends on 

*trividh shishya budhhi*

[3/8, 19:43] rupesh bhai dr: 

For moksh or local treatment.

[3/8, 19:46] S A Soni: 

It's not correct that all people ignored aatmaadi.

Discussion started with agni so whole group focused on that. 

Please don't take it in generalised manner.

Out Tridosh have sattvaadi gunda themselves, these atmadi are inseparable.

[3/8, 19:47] shekhar singh MP: 

As I have stated earlier, This is the beauty of Sanskrit Language, you can make many sanse of single word/sentence. 

And this makes Ayurveda Difficult to understand.

Till date, so many controversial things are there. 

Now, after Spending 22 years in Ayurveda, and Tought by one of  The best Samhita teachers (at NIA),

I will hv to start learning A new concept..

[3/8, 19:47] rupesh bhai dr: 

Clinical relief parameters are if different types 

चिकित्सा में पहले किया जाता है

*रुगुपशमन*

उसके बाद

*धातुसाम्य*

उसके बाद 

*स्वस्थवृत्त*

उसके बाद

*प्रकृति स्थापन*

उसके बाद 

*दीर्घ जीवन*

[3/8, 19:47] S A Soni: 

[3/8, 19:50] Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik: 

Everyone is student for life time sirji.. Vo Einstein wali story to pta hogi apko

[3/8, 19:53] Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik: 

Yes.. trividh budhi very imp

[3/8, 19:53] S A Soni: 

I am not saying to stop. I just put my view as it was stated that there are 24 dhatus , so I raised my query about various physical characters byproducts etc.

Just insisted on clear classification.... Or category

Like physical dhatus etc.

As dr bhooshan said confusion opens new way.

View expressed by both of you is truly valuable.

[3/8, 19:53] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad: 

भुतेभ्यो हि परं यस्मान्नास्ति चिंता चिकित्सते। -सुश्रुतजी कहते है।

While charaka corcern beyond Bhuta..

[3/8, 19:54] Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik: 

[3/8, 19:57] Manu Vats Dr Patiala: 

Rightly stated by you Sir.........we are witnessing different unique opinions....That's the point..

[3/8, 19:58] S A Soni:

 

Rasadi for daihik chikitsa

Atmadi for naishthiki

[3/8, 19:59] Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik: 

Sushrut also saying whole world produced Frm avyakt, nd so on 24 tatv.. in whole world I can take anything say stone, river, etc made up of  24 tatv. But in that purush / chetna makes live human.. which is g8 difference on tatv nd dhatu.. we teat dhatu or sachetan sharir not only tatva. 

so we doing successful practice say for long yrs too but may sometimes making confusn in some things or places.

[3/8, 19:59] S A Soni: 

[3/8, 19:59] Manu Vats Dr Patiala: 

Yes if clinical significance gets cleared then it will make a big sense and all will be benefited

[3/8, 20:00] Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik:

What can be said clinical??

[3/8, 20:01] S A Soni: 

भूतैचतुर्विधै:ससूक्ष्ममनोजवै:....

[3/8, 20:02] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad: 

आयु= शरिरेन्द्रियसत्वात्मसंयोगो

आयुवेँद= आयु का शास्त्र या ने इसमे शरीर(पंचमहाभूत), इन्द्रिय, सत्व, आत्मा आ ही जायेगा, तो ये कहना बिल्कुल गलत है कि सब इसको इग्नोर कर रह है।।

दुसरे ग्रुप मे इस टोपिक के शुरु मे ही बात हुइ थी- क्रियाघ्ना कमँजा रोगा..

[3/8, 20:04] S A Soni: 

Please carry on.

After many times we are on serious discussion.

We are proud that our young generation is so deep routed.

[3/8, 20:05] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

My aim was not to tell the every body is ignoring satva, Atma, etc. Most of students of Ayurved believe that these are philosophical aspect and believe that it has no clinical utility. So they don't give more emphasis on that topic..other wise  great vaidhya may be there who were practicing with these philosophical aspects with confidence.

[3/8, 20:06] S A Soni: Right

[3/8, 20:06] Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik: 

It is said that ur eyes can see only what ur mind knows.. so things pehle clear hogi then clinically aayegi.. clinical pehle pta chalega nd things badme aisa to Ulta nhi Hoga.

[3/8, 20:07] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad: 

As per my understanding Agni is one whether its outside of body or inside of body...

And we are not treating only Agni, we are treating the entity e.g. Purusha.

[3/8, 20:07] S A Soni: 

Yes

True

[3/8, 20:07] Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik: 

U As a teacher v can understand ur feelings Dr Bharat !

[3/8, 20:08] Janardan Hebbar Dr: 

Can you please give a brief note or a few lines about - how to use the knowledge of avyakta mahan and ahankara, clinically?

[3/8, 20:08] S A Soni: 

Same with me as a teacher.

[3/8, 20:08] rupesh bhai dr: 

[3/8, 20:09] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Yes bhushanji...

[3/8, 20:09] Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik: hmm Very true

Again my question remains as it is.. what is clinical?? 

Pradgyaparadh kaha hota hai ??

[3/8, 20:11] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

We all are practicing Ahankar, Mahat etc in clinical practice unknowingly.  If we practise it with awareness , outcomes will be sure.

[3/8, 20:12] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Satva jaya kaha kaam karta hai ??

[3/8, 20:12] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Counseling kya karata hai ??

[3/8, 20:13] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Yadi ye sab samaj ne ki koshis ki jaye to vishay pravesh aasan rahega.

[3/8, 20:13] Janardan  Dr: 

How ? Can you please explain in a few lines ?

[3/8, 20:13] Janardan  Dr: 

Clinical = interacting with patients.

[3/8, 20:13] Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik:

 Allopathic science me jo surgeon book me diye us Hisab se hi surgery karta hai use expert or Acha mana jata hai.. they proudly say that kya bookish or perfect surgery karta hai.. ayurved me Samhita me hi di gyi bat ham kare to clinical hai ya nhi Ye pucha jata hai, isn't it something strange?? 

Agr clinical nhi hoti to Samhita me aati hi nhi..

[3/8, 20:15] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Not possible in few lines..if few lines will be written, the next question will be same "how few lines". But as per my convenient time I will try to type long messeges to clarify as possible level.

[3/8, 20:15] Janardan Dr: Will wait.

[3/8, 20:16] Bharat Padhar Vd: Sure...

[3/8, 20:18] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Clinical utility is like solving complex puzzle with help of +,- ×, ÷ process. If all 4 process are clear then we can solve complex puzzle, so theoretical mastery should be there before going in understanding of clinical application.

[3/8, 20:18] Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik: 

Ab it depends on everyone's budhi.. 

Patient la pradgya apradh Dur ho Uske liye ham jo b Bate counselling karte Vo Uske mahat , etc sukshm level pe hi Kam karega na.. 

Nd jitni vaidya ki pradgnya shudh, pran Acha utne ache se patient will listen him.

Aisa bhi kayi bar hota hai ki ek vaidya se patient sunata nhi (Nidan parivarjn) hai but dusre k pass se sun leta hai.. 

Depends on pradgnya

[3/8, 20:21] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

[3/8, 20:23] Janardan Dr: 

Totally agreed. At some point those theoretical knowledge will meet clinical arena. We need to explore those meeting points more.

[3/8, 20:26] Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik: 

[3/8, 20:27] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad: 

All things work together, we can't say one thing dominates others..

अग्नि चिकित्सको(मरीची इ.) अग्नि को सेन्ट्रल मे रखके चिकित्सा करते, वैसे ही वायु चिकित्सको (वायोँविद) वायु को ही सेन्ट्ल रखते है।

[3/8, 20:28] Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik: 

Vo to hai hi, or else andh gaj nyay vat.

[3/8, 20:29] rupesh bhai dr: 

Lets see this 

इह खलु हेतुर्निमित्तमायतनं कर्ता कारणं प्रत्ययः समुत्थानं निदानमित्यनर्थान्तरम्|

तत्त्रिविधम्- असात्म्येन्द्रियार्थसंयोगः, प्रज्ञापराधः, परिणामश्चेति||३|| 

The above shlok is taken from Charaka Nidana first chapter (we all knows)

Chakrapani here told ...

यद्यपि च मूलभूतत्वेन प्रज्ञापराधः प्रधानं भवति, तथाऽपि प्रत्यासन्नकारणत्वेन तथाऽबुद्धिपूर्वकस्याप्युत्कटशब्दमिथ्यायोगादेरपि कारणत्वेनासात्म्येन्द्रियार्थसंयोगोऽपि प्रधानम् |

Here 

*pragyaparadha* is main and *ASIAS* is not given as much importance due to dominance of buddhi who takes all the decision rather than Indriya. 

So pragyaparadh is nothing but *bad judgement of mind* or *objection overruled by mind* 

(Indriya gives information about asatmyata) for example a boy is playing *video game* and his sense organs (hand, eye, stomach food reflex etc.) tell him to stop the action but superior to sense impulse *the mind* told not to stop the action. This is noting but *pragyaparadh* which is come after ASIAS. 

Like wise a patient work hard without caring his body is also ASIAS which further convert into pragyaparath. 

*So question was* where is the site of pragyaparadh

Level 1 .... ASIAS is at sense level or Indriya level

Leve 2 .... pragyaparadh is at MIND level or buddhi level

Thanks

[3/8, 20:32] S A Soni: 

च शा 5/10 

It may helpful further.

[3/8, 20:32] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad:

  whenever I see journal, students always write NAD in column of Pragyaparadha(dhee, dhriti, smriti vibhransh). Most of students don't care about these

[3/8, 20:33] S A Soni: 

[3/8, 20:34] S A Soni: 

[3/8, 20:35] rupesh bhai dr: 

Sir it require details of patients ... Long term examination of mind and thoughts ... Which student could not get ... 

They are right in their place.

[3/8, 20:37] Manu Vats Dr Patiala: 

No sir rather its pragyapradh of students.

[3/8, 20:38] rupesh bhai dr: 

Students ki buddhi ka vikas ho raha hota hai ... Tabhi to sikh rahe hai ... 

[3/8, 20:38] Manu Vats Dr Patiala: 

[3/8, 20:38] rupesh bhai dr: 

Itni jaldi ayurved sikh le aise to विरल vidhyarthi hi aate hai ayurved mein

[3/8, 20:41] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad:

Don't require. 

अम्लपित के आतुर को मालुम है कि तीखा खाने से समस्या बढती है, उसकी मतलब उसकी धी सही है।

वह बाजार मे पानी पुरी देखे और खीने वक्त याद आ जाये कि तीखा ऐसीडीटी करता है, तो इसकी स्मृति भी सही है, लेकिन फिरभी वो खा ले तो प्रोब्लेम धृति का है, जो ज्यादातर सब मेमिलता है।

बहोत सारे स्मोकर/गुटुखा खाने वाले मानते ही नही कि इससे केन्सर होता है, तो उसकी तो धी ही खराब है।

बस इतना करे तो भी बहोत है !

[3/8, 20:43] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad: 

Its not big things.

[3/8, 20:43] rupesh bhai dr: 

सत्य का रास्ता सीधा पर मुश्किल बहोत है 

सरजी 

[3/8, 20:44] rupesh bhai dr:

सभी रोगों के हेतु आवश्यक नही की ज्ञात हों और पालन किया ही जाय

वह तो प्रणाभीसर वैद्य ही होंता है जो रोगी को पथ्य पालन करवाता है 

[3/8, 20:45] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad: 

But nowadays problem is that most of students keep their blue tooth/WiFi off, then we can't transfer any things, even Lord Dhanvantari can't do any things.

Otherwise knowledge is everywhere.

[3/8, 20:46] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad: 

I see many pts on Railway station(last seen Pt of Phocomelia), its not necessary that pts are seen in hospital.

[3/8, 20:53] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad:

  निदानपरिवजँन के लिये हेतु जानना जरुरी है, वरना रोग फिर से होगा !

[3/8, 20:54] rupesh bhai dr: Yes sir 

[3/8, 20:54] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad:

[3/8, 20:55] rupesh bhai dr: 

[3/8, 21:07] Vd Ranga Prasad Ji Chennai:

Ex: A Google referring chronic patient approaches a physician and gives history of his ailment in technical language as if he is a physician, always counteracts with an input when the physician tries explaining the pathological sequence occurring in his body. 

The working level of ego in such patients never allows to accept things easily and starts doubting r

each and every step of the physician starting from his approach to clinical examination to prescription. 

Unless his working ahankaar is negated or countered, the chikitsa given is not going to be phaladayi. Because either the pt is not going to buy the prescribed medicines or he is not going to consume the dispensed medicine.

And in case, even if he consumes the medicine, he does it with an element of doubt created by his ahankara and that becomes a factor detrimental to the prakrti sthapana or samprati vighatan in not getting occurring. 

In such cases, the physician should wisely recognise the ahankar of the rugna and then apply countermeasures  to reduce his ahankara by taking a superior position by sidelining his intervening comments and make him listen to the clinical interpretation by making him understand who is the boss for treating the health aberrations. 

While adopting this process of making them understand who is the boss of the science, the words used should be like *inserting a needle into a unripened banana*, such that the person donot catch up easily that we are pricking their ego directly. 

The alpa satva and bahu satva people too is related to indriya-buddhi-mano-ahankar axis of vishaya grahan. !?

[3/8, 21:12] pawan madan Dr: 

Ohhhhh

What a brain stormingsession in the evening !!!!

Thanks Dr Bharat And Dr Bhushan for initiating a different twist in understanding Agni.

This led me to search many new things.

Thanks a lot.

[3/8, 21:20] pawan madan Dr: 

We can get a clue from Sushrut Sharir......where he says.......the first appearance of Agni in heart which he names Sadhakagni .....which then spreads like electricity in the while body with the help of Vaata and reaches to mastishk and interacts with Mana to further control Agni in all other parts of the body.

This is explaineed in Shrimad Bhagwat puraan skandh 10, chaper 2......

Charak calles this as Kayagni. Naming is purwly based on the function of the Agni and place in which it works.....otherwise.....same...

[3/8, 21:21] S A Soni: Perfect

[3/8, 21:43] pawan madan Dr: 

As per aushrut sharir...

Dhaatu is that which causes it own dhaaran in the Deha as well as it produces some other padaarrh in the Deha...

e.g....chetna is dhaatu.....as it does its own dhaaran as well as produces sadhakagni in the hridya...

Aisaa maine padhaa...

And upadhataa is which does its dhaaran in the Deha but doesnt produce other things in the Deha...

So dhaatu and upadhaatu may include many things as per the context...

Is that like this Dr Bharat ji..

This is like.....anything which has the abilty to cause Dooshan ....is Dosha...

Perhaps I am now understaning the things...

[3/8, 21:43] pawan madan Dr: 

True....

if we observe ourself....right..

[3/8, 21:43] pawan madan Dr: 

One reference says...

Agni of respective Dhaatu is the Ushma present in their respective srotas.

Srotas is tge place where new dhatua are formed and a *suitable* (i didnt find a better word for this) agni in that srotas is necessary for the formation of that respective dhaatu.

Like एक अन्कुर को स्फुटित होने के उचित तापमान चाहिये ना कम ना झ्यादा....

ऐसा ही सुबह कुछ डा कटोच सर ने ईन्गित किया था...

[3/8, 21:47] pawan madan Dr: 

Wonderful...

Perfect Ranga bro..

Experienced this many time.

[3/8, 21:56] Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik:

  very correct..many such patients came

[3/8, 22:02] Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik: 

Thoughts hamesha on rakhenge(Dimag ka wi fi)  nd Jada se Jada padhenge to thought process Aur clear hote jayegi, its a continuous process for all of us.

[3/8, 22:03] pawan madan Dr: 

[3/8, 22:15] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad:

 आतुर के अंतरात्मा मे प्रवेश करना पडता है।

[3/8, 22:17] Vd Ranga Prasad Ji Chennai:

Bilkul sahi kaha, aapne. 

And to achieve that, one should start practicing *so aham*. 

If that's not possible, atleast should be empathetically approaching the patients. 

[3/8, 22:20] Katoch sir:

  I am at a loss why there are perceptional differences about Agni, Dhatwagni etc- the basic concepts and theories of Ayurveda inspite of being graduates, postgraduates and postdoctorates among ourselves in the group. If the concepts and theories are not uniformly understood by us how we can make Ayurveda understandable to medical fraternity and others. It is obvious that prescription of an Ayurvedic practitioner for the same disease condition may differ from the others due to individualised diagnosis or choice of drugs. But it is never desirable that fundamentals of Ayurvedic system are interpreted differently and we continue to give varied explanations of the same subject.  There seems to be problem in our education & training or our failure to imbibe the knowledge uniformly.  Theories, Concepts and Basic Principles, if not interpreted and perceived in the same manner by the Ayurvedic fraternity then it is really unfortunate and shameful for us. This kind of ignorance and confusion is neither desirable nor acceptable  considering the Shaswat nature of Ayurveda.

[3/8, 22:22] ayurmitra KSR Prasad Ay pith:

 With same feeling I posted concept of agni in ayurveda.

[3/8, 22:23] pawan madan Dr: 

Sir u shaped the feelings into words which I am struggling from last two days.

[3/8, 22:23] rupesh bhai dr: 

Yes sir 

मुण्डे मुण्डे मतिर्भिन्ना !!

[3/8, 22:23] ayurmitra KSR Prasad Ay pith:

Further we may differ in contemplating with modern terminology but not to deviate from basic concepts of ayurveda.

[3/8, 22:24] rupesh bhai dr: 

Must be standard.

[3/8, 22:24] pawan madan Dr: 

Aisa hoga to....kaise chalegaa...

[3/8, 22:25] ayurmitra KSR Prasad Ay pith:

We have group and Mobile in the hand to write what our brain Say..

[3/8, 22:25] Katoch sir: 

We should leave Ayurveda otherwise Ayurveda will leave us if the situation continues.

[3/8, 22:25] ayurmitra KSR Prasad Ay pith:

I am sorry to accept my ignorance ... I could not follow some of postings on agni even.

[3/8, 22:27] ayurmitra KSR Prasad Ay pith:

If some body wish to dictate neoayurveda ... oops ... I have not good feeling.

[3/8, 22:28] Katoch sir: 

We want- Pinde Pinde Same Understanding, Same Clarity, Same Perception of Ayurvedic fundamentals.

[3/8, 22:28] Vd Ranga Prasad Ji Chennai: 

[3/8, 22:28] ayurmitra KSR Prasad Ay pith:

It shoups not mean any thing we talk.

[3/8, 22:28] pawan madan Dr: 

But I am.feeling all who are writing.....are experiencing this......

[3/8, 22:29] Vd Ranga Prasad Ji Chennai: 

Accepted. Hari .

[3/8, 22:30] ayurmitra KSR Prasad Ay pith:

True ... ten times we say a bit valid becomes valid as it is repeated for 10 times

[3/8, 22:31] pawan madan Dr: 

This is not anything we talk sir....

[3/8, 22:32] pawan madan Dr: 

[3/8, 22:33] ayurmitra KSR Prasad Ay pith:

The definitions on pachakagni pachakapitta kayagni kayagniamsha dhatwagni bhutagni even doshagni I heard from some of groups pretending to have ...

[3/8, 22:41] ayurmitra KSR Prasad Ay pith:

Another Best book for understanding agni is introduction to kayachikitsa.

[3/8, 22:49] Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik: 

I feel reason of this is we are going away from our system of learning. 

Pg, PhD only doesnt brings knowledge. Sirf padh k bhi kuch nhi hota, Indian science me kanthasth karne ki hi pratha hai, which is the proper way. Hame direct learn Karna chahiye to we hav something with us always when patients came. Kanthsth b ek shlok yha ka ek shlok dusri jagh ka kiya to linking nhi Hoga, adhisthan Tantra yukti nhi. Basic concepts k adhyay k adhyay (I m wrong here, we should learn every thing, but alp budhi k anusar keh rha hu) Agr kanthasth ho to between the lines samjane k liye Bhot Acha Hoga, jo opinion differences aate hai Vo.nhi ayenge. 

Education system me to prblm hai hi, no doubt but Ab aage badhna to hai hi. 

Tail budhi wale ko ek ved padhne achese se samjhne k liye 12 yrs lagte hai, only shankarachary ji ne jaldi padhe the. So Ab time to introspection ourselves.

Muze Kitne adhyay kanthasth hai ?? Aur Agr hai to Uske Upar quality time deke ham sab soche. Aur nhi hai kanthasth to chaliye kanthsth kare. Ek din ya 2-4 hrs me sab samj b nhi ayega Aur digest b nhi Hoga. Meko to nhi hota jab tak me khud uspe work n karu.

Its my opinion, Ab Kisiko Ye impractical, illogical lag b sakta hai, but this is the only way out i think.. 

Thanks, anyone pls dont take personallly pls

[3/8, 22:57] Sagar Bhide BVV:

 superb explanation 

[3/8, 23:23] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey: 

[3/8, 23:24] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Ayurved ke fundamental principal ka standardization tabhi sambhav hai jab samjane vaale sab ek saman buddhi ke star ke ho.... otherwise impossible.

[3/8, 23:28] shekhar singh MP: 

[3/8, 23:31] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Jab tak trividh buddhi shishya rahege tab tak Ayurved k siddhanto ko alag alag mod se samja jayega.

[3/8, 23:34] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Bahuso alpm jayet nyay ke anusaar, jinki bahu mati hogi vo apne mat ko standard manenge evam supporter support karenge.

Satyug me Pravar buddhi k log maximum the to unka mat manya raheta tha...Kalyug ki sthiti ham samaj sakate hai....

[3/8, 23:40] Vd Ranga Prasad Ji Chennai: 

[3/8, 23:41] pawan madan Dr: 

Respect ur thaughts but this is not a rule.

I know many who have kanthastha chapters and chapters but still not having clear basics.

On the other hand I have seen many successful practitioners using such basic concepts in practice.

Sharing just my experience.

[3/8, 23:43] pawan madan Dr: 

Other than this if the experts have the patience to hear each other and modify their thaoght processes they can easily make some standards for ayurveda basivs......as it happens in other scienves..........and in those scienves also.......there are also persons having different budhi....

[3/8, 23:45] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Absolutely right sir...

[3/9, 00:28] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

Sorry for very late response .

Sir ist of all we have a strong pramaan for every thing I.e aaptopadesha. As per this no separate kayagni have been mentioned in shastra. 

There is no any limitations of knowledge but there is some specific boundary for every different stream of knowledge. For ayurveda also some limitations have been given I.e. adhikaar.

Our adhikaar is up to karma purusha or chikitsya purusha it may be saddhatuj(panch mahabhoot and aatma) as per Sushrut and dridhatu or tridanda(satwa,atma ,sharira)as per charak samhita.

Sharira means panch mahabhoot vikaar. Aata prakriti(avyakt, mahaan , ahankaar, panch tanmatra)chikitsa ke adhikaar se bahar hai.

We can treat shodash vikaar only. For which agni is a main factor to treat. The main is kayagni or paachakagni  or jatharagni. 

Sir I will give my more explanation about this  later.

[3/9, 00:34] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi:

*कई सालों से BIMS GAMS और अब BAMS कुछ लोगो के लिये back door entry से allopathic या integrated doctor बनने का चोर दरवाजा है। जैसे MBBS के लिये physics, chemistry & bio जरूरी है, वैसे ही आयुर्वेद को जानने के लिये संस्कृत और भारतीय दर्शन का ज्ञान भी जरूरी है तभी हम आयुर्वेद के मौलिक सिद्धान्तों को जान सकते हैं।नही तो कितने लोग ऐसे है जो बचपन से ही तय कर लेते हैं कि मुझे वैद्य ही बनना है और भारतीय दर्शन और आध्यात्मिक ज्ञान  ज्यादातर स्कूलों में पढ़ाया ही नही गया*

*आयुर्वेद के ग्रन्थ जब लिखे गये तब सांख्य और वैशेषिक दर्शन का जोर था और आयुर्वेद के अपने मौलिक सिद्धान्तों पर इनकी छाप इसलिये है कि हमारे ऋषि मुनियों को भारतीय दर्शन का पूरा ज्ञान था तभी मूल प्रकृति,पंचमहाभूत, इन्द्रियां, तन्मात्रायें इनका वर्णन चिकित्सा के चतुष्पाद के संदर्भ में किया है*

*आयुर्वेद को जानने के लिये भारतीय दर्शन और आध्यात्मिक पक्ष का जानना जरूरी है क्योकि जिन्होने ये लिखे उन्हे इस पक्ष का ज्ञान था*

*insulin dependent diabetic रोगी को देखें तो history से पता चलता है b sugar बढ़ने के बाद भी उसका मन मधुर पदार्थ खाने से अपने को रोक नही पाता था, आलस्य उसे शारीरिक श्रम नही करने देता था और ज्ञान होने के बाद भी वह तनाव मुक्त नही रह पाता था तो उसके रोग का मूल कारण मीठा नही प्रज्ञापराध था*

*जब तक आयुर्वेद का दार्शनिक और आध्यात्मिक पक्ष नही जानेगें और Allopathic doctor का दिमाग रखकर आयुर्वेद को समझना चाहेगें, तब तक कई बाते समझना बहुत कठिन है*

*आयुर्वेद के मूल सिद्धान्तो के अनुसार जब हम चिकित्सा करते हैं तो धीरे धीरे सब प्रश्नो के उत्तर अपने अंदर से ही मिलने लगते है, एक अजीब से ज्ञान का अनुभव होने लगता है और आत्मविश्वास बढ़ने लगता है*

*आयुर्वेद आत्मिक स्तर तक जाने वाली वो ऋषि मुनियो की विद्या है जिसे technical या mechanical level पर नही जान सकते, इसके लिये तो रज और तम को त्याग कर सत्व में डूबना पड़ता है*

[3/9, 00:50] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

इस सन्दर्भ में में कुछ कहना चाहती हूँ। सर अवस्य आयुर्वेद को समझने के लिए ये सब जरुरी है पर उसका उसका भी limitations शास्त्र में कर दिया गया है। सर्व मत को लेकर अपना एक निर्णय दिया गया है।

जिन्होंने ये लिखे हैं उनको सबकुछ ज्ञान था इसलिए वो आप्त हैं। पर हम अल्पबुद्धि वाले हैं इसलिए उनके द्वारा बताए गए सरल ज्ञान को भी ठीक से समझने में असमर्थ हैं। अगर हम भी रज तम  मुक्त हो पाते तो कबसे अलग अलग संहिता लिख चुके होते।कृपिया माफ़ कीजियेगा अगर ठेस पहुंचाई तो। ये मेरा अपना सोच है।

*आयुर्वेद आत्मिक स्तर तक जाने वाली वो ऋषि मुनियो की विद्या है जिसे technical या mechanical level पर नही जान सकते, इसके लिये तो रज और तम को त्याग कर सत्व में डूबना पड़ता है*

[3/9, 00:59] Raghuram Dr Banguluru: 

*Are Jataragni and Kayagni one and the same?*

References pointing towards Kaya as Deha or body -

चीयते अन्नदिभिः

चीयते प्रशस्त दोष धातु मलैः इतिकायः।(अरुणदत्त, अ.हृ.सु.१/१६)

अत्र काय शब्देन दोष धातु मल संघातःउच्यते।(डल्हण, सु.उ.३९/२)

कायं सकल शरीरं।(शिवदास सेन्, चरक)

काय चिकित्सा नाम सर्व अंग समाश्रितानांव्याधीनाम् ज्वर रक्तपित्त सोह्ष उन्मादअपस्मार कुष्ठ मेह अतिसारादीनाम्उपशमनार्थम्।(सु.सू.१/३)

*All the synonyms of Kaya* i.e. Kalevara, Gatram, Vapu, Samhanam, Shareera, Varsma, Vigraha, Kaya, Deha, Murthi and Tanu explain Kaya as physical body. (Ref Amarakosham)

*References pointing towards Kaya as Agni* -

कायः शब्देन अग्निः उच्यते।(शिवदाससेन्, च.सू.३०/२०-२६)

कायः अग्निः किं वा देहः।(डल्हण)

कायस्य नामः अन्तराग्नेः’ (चरक)

कायस्य्स् अन्तराग्नेः चिकित्सा कायचिकित्सा।(चक्रपाणि, च.सू.३०/२८)

कायो अत्र अग्निः उच्यते, तस्य चिकित्साकाय चिकित्सा, अथवा कायो देहः, तस्यचिकित्सा काय चिकित्सा।(डल्हण, सु.सू.१/७)

Dalhana defines Kaya Chikitsa in 2 different meanings. He tells, Kaya is agni or fire, treating the errors of agni is called Kaya Chikitsa. He also tells, Kaya means deha or body, treating the body as a whole is called Kaya Chikitsa.

*Other references related to Kaya*

*Kaya is mind*

काय चित्त प्रकृति।

शरीरम् इति सत्त्वम् अनु विधीयते सत्त्वं चशरीरम्। (च.शा.४/३७)

*Kaya is heart or mind*

कायति शब्दायते इति कायः।

*By seeing the above said* definitions of Kaya, Kaya is –

Deha - Human Body

Kayagni - Fire in the body

Manas - Mind

Hridaya – Heart

Sakala Shareera – full body

Thus Kayagni can be understood as ‘The fire in the body’ or the fire itself.

If Kaya is taken as fire, Kayagni is the gross fire in the whole body. Here Kaya becomes synonymous with Kayagni.

*References indicating that Kayagni and Jatharagni are one and the same* –

स्व स्थानस्थः तस्य कायाग्नेः अंशा धातुषुसंस्थिताः।

तेषां सादाति दीप्ताभ्यां धातु वृद्धि क्षयउद्भवः॥(अ.हृ.सू.११/२४)

According to Acharya Vagbhata, *A small part of Kayagni is represented in all the Dhatus*. Thus Agni is present in each and every cell of the body. This Agni is called Datvagni. The increase of Dhatvagni leads to Dhatu Kshaya. The decrease of Dhatvagni leads to Dhatu Vriddhi. The Kayagni or Jatharagni being located in its place (Svasthana) governs and maintains all these Micro-Agni’s located in the tissue.

*Site and Function of Kayagni / Jataragni /Jatharagni*

स्व स्थानं कायाग्नेः पक्व आमाशययोःमध्यम्। (अरुणदत्त)

*Svasthana* – Arunadatta in his commentary further clarifies the meaning of Svasthana of Kayagni. He tells that the site of manifestation or dwelling for Kayagni is at a place *in between Pakvashaya and Amashaya*. Thus the site of Kayagni or Jatharagni is Grahani or Ksuhdrantra. This reference explains that *both Kayagni and Jatharagni are one and the same*.

*Conclusion???* –

It is very difficult to conclude if Jatharagni and Kayagni are one and the same. As we have seen, some authors have taken kaya as agni and others have taken kaya as deha or body.

If Kayagni is taken to be the ‘fire in the body’, it would definitely *differ from ‘jatharagni*’ which is limited to the belly or tummy. Thus *Kayagni sums up all the 13 types of Agni’s taken together* i.e. 1 Jatharagni, 5 bhutagnis and 7 dhatwagnis. Kayagni also seems to be the sum of all the 5 types of pitta or agnis i.e. Pachaka pitta (Pachakagni), Bhrajaka pitta (Bhrajakagni), Sadhaka pitta (Sadhakagni), Ranjaka pitta (Ranjakagni) and Alochaka pitta (Alochakagni).

If Jatharagni is taken as Pachaka Pitta (jathara being tummy or belly) or Pachakagni, it still is one among the 5 subtypes of Pitta. Therefore *Jataragni becomes a part and parcel of Kayagni*.

According to the reference from Vagbhata, *Kayagni and Jatharagni are one and the same*, the terms being used interchangeably.

*Situational understanding* of these terms is the key to solve the controversies and the puzzles involved with these tricky words.

[3/9, 00:59] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi:

 *असली आयुर्वेद तो कुछ वर्ष clinical practice के बाद ही समझ आता है !!

********************************************************************************************************

Above discussion held on 'Kaysampraday" a Famous WhatsApp group  of  well known Vaidyas from all over the India. 

Compiled & edited by

Dr.Surendra A. Soni

M.D.,PhD (KC)

Associate Professor

Dept. of Kaya-chikitsa

Govt. Ayurveda College

Vadodara Gujarat, India.

Email: surendraasoni@gmail.com

Mobile No. +91 9408441150