WDS 87: Understanding immunosuppresant as per Ayurveda by Prof. S.K. Khandal, Prof. Gurdeep Singh, Vaidyaraja Subhash Sharma, Prof. Satyendra Ojha, Dr. D.C. Katoch, Prof. Mohanlal Jaysawal, Prof. Mamata Bhagawat, Vd. Raghuram Bhatta, Dr. Pawan Madaan, Dr. Bharat Padher, Vd. Atul Kale, Vd. Rangaprasad Bhat, Prof. Arun Rathi, Prof. Giriraj Sharma, Dr. Divyesh Desai, Dr. Ashwini Kumar Sood, Dr. Shailendra Mehata, Dr. Pratibha Navani, Prof. Rajeshwar Chopade & others.

[7/11, 10:32 PM] Dr. Pawan Madan:

 Respected All Gurujan

Do any patient afflicted with mucor mycosis, who has not taken any allopathic medicine for covid ??

[7/12, 7:13 AM] Dr. Ashwani Kumar Sood:

 Mucormycosis is not a new disease, it's not that any medicine is causing it 

1 It may occur in immunocompromised pts 

2 Immunosupressants are administered to all pts where organ transplant is done. So that process of  TRANSPLANT REJECTION is avoided therapeutic suppression of immune system is done . 

There chances of superadded such infections like MMY may occur .

Similarly in recent COVID SARS iatrogenic suppression of immune system occurred which resulted in increased number of such cases

[7/12, 7:29 AM] Dr. Ashwani Kumar Sood:

 Steroids and other drugs lowered the immunity of the host and FUNGUS got the opportunity to grow

[7/12, 8:28 AM] Vd Shailendra Mehta:

 Resp.Sir..🙏🏻🙏🏻.Is it possible that ayurvedic med. taken, unjudiciously, may also act as immunity suppressants and may result in other conditions, incl. MMY🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/12, 8:38 AM] Dr. Ashwani Kumar Sood:

 UNJUDICIOUSLY ? हम ऋषियों की संतान,  हम कैसे हो सकते हैं unjudicious ? कमाल है 😉

[7/12, 8:45 AM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir: 

😭 Ayurved santan to judicious hi hai, par gyan ka prayog yada kada ho sakata hai judicious na ho.

[7/12, 9:01 AM] Vd Shailendra Mehta:

 Resp.Sir..🙏🏻🙏🏻. 

Is it possible that ayurvedic med. taken, unjudiciously, may also act as immunity suppressants and may result in other conditions ,incl.MMY🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/12, 9:04 AM] Dr. Ashwani Kumar Sood:

 There is no known scientifically proved immunosuppresant drug in our system . Anti neoplastic drugs are also considered as RASAYAN

[7/12, 9:05 AM] Vd Shailendra Mehta:

 🙏🏻🙏🏻many thnx,Sir...🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/12, 9:07 AM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha:

 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22761185/

[7/12, 9:07 AM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Shailendra Mehta ji ⬆️

[7/12, 9:08 AM] Vd Shailendra Mehta: 

🧎🏻‍♂️🧎🏻‍♂️🙏🏻🙏🏻🌷🌷

[7/12, 9:10 AM] Vd Shailendra Mehta: 

😟😟😇😇😇गुरुदेव तो इन्हें विष/उपविष कह सकतें हैं, functionally..

[7/12, 9:12 AM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

नहीं

[7/12, 9:13 AM] Vd Shailendra Mehta: 

जी सर,तो इनके  इस विशिष्ट कर्म को किस तरह समझे🙏🏻

[7/12, 9:13 AM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir: 

Naam mein kya rakha hai, Aushadh dravya ke karm aur prabhav ko dekho

[7/12, 9:14 AM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

जी , 🙏🙏

[7/12, 9:14 AM] Vd Shailendra Mehta:

 जी;सर🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/12, 9:14 AM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

रस, गुण वीर्य विपाकादि के आधार पर

[7/12, 9:16 AM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 And also on the basis of  status of intrinsic factors ( Dosh, Dhatu, Srotas, Agni aadi)

[7/12, 9:16 AM] Dr.Ranjit Nimbalkar Sir:

 योगादपि विषं तीक्ष्णं भेषजमुत्तमं मतम्।

भेषजं चापि दुर्युक्तं तीक्ष्णं संपद्यते विषम्।।

[7/12, 9:16 AM] Vd Shailendra Mehta:

 आपश्री,थोड़ा और सरल और सुपाच्य कर दें तो कृपा होगी

[7/12, 9:16 AM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

अमृता को समझने की जरुरत है

[7/12, 9:17 AM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha:

 Yes sir ji

[7/12, 9:17 AM] Vd Shailendra Mehta: 

जी सर आज अमृता की ही अमृत वर्षा आपश्री कर दें🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/12, 9:18 AM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Prabhav hi to vishist karm hai, jo achintya hai- vichitra pratyarbadh

[7/12, 9:19 AM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

वातघ्न और कफघ्न द्रव्यो की एक सूची तैयार करें, उनमे बहुत से immunosuppressants मिलेगें

[7/12, 9:21 AM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

पित्तघ्न द्रव्य भी antiinflammatory होने से immunosuppressants हो सकते हैं

[7/12, 9:22 AM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Jyadatar kaph har hi honge immunosuppressant yadi unka vipak katu ya amla hai.

[7/12, 9:23 AM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

तिक्त और उष्ण भी अग्रज

[7/12, 9:24 AM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Glycerrhiza species

[7/12, 9:25 AM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Ojavirodhi sabhi dravya immunosuppressant apekshit hai

[7/12, 9:25 AM] Vd Shailendra Mehta:

 सर,immunosuppression को आयुर्वेदिक परिपेक्ष में क्या समसें,प्राकृत/वैकृत।   या दोनों

[7/12, 9:26 AM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

कर्म हैं

[7/12, 9:26 AM] Vd Shailendra Mehta:

 सर, अज्ञात कर्म लगता है🙂

[7/12, 9:27 AM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Immunity modulation mein Tikta Rasa ka bahut yogdaan hain.

[7/12, 9:27 AM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

नहीं, प्रायोगिक परिक्षणों से ज्ञात हो चुके हैं

[7/12, 9:28 AM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

अमृता एक उदाहरण है

[7/12, 9:29 AM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Example nahin Principle hai Amrita

[7/12, 9:31 AM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

आधुनिक तंत्रज्ञान को आयुर्वेद में समाहित किजिए, न कि तुल्यता देखें

[7/13, 11:54 AM] Dr. Suneet Aurora: 

प्रणाम गुरुदेव, 

आपके इस सूत्र को देखा तो यह मिला:

वातघ्न:  

immunomodulatory in degenerative / धातुक्षय 

पित्तघ्न: 

immunomodulatory in inflammatory/ infection disorders.

कफघ्न:

immunomodulatory in neoplasma/ growth/ blockages disorders.

जहाँ हृदयरोग आदि में तीनों निदान (pathology) मिलें, वहाँ मुख्य दोष, प्रकृति, धातु आदि देख कर immunomodulator योग की युक्ति हो ।।

Please correct in this thought-line, sir.

🙏🏼

[7/13, 12:35 PM] Dr.Rajeshwar Chopde:

 Siddhamantraprakash es hetu dhekhana chahiye

[7/13, 1:37 PM] Dr. Suneet Aurora: 

Can you please share reference pdf if you have.

Or elaborate the concept, please.

🙏🏼

[7/15, 7:20 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 प्रणाम सर ।

उक्त कथन को स्वीकार करना अत्यंत मुश्किल है ।

Immunosuppressive concept को आयुर्वेद में बलपूर्वक प्रविष्ट कराना अत्यन्त कठिन है । 

जो आर्टिकल प्रेषित हुए हैं वो एल्केलाइड आदि पर आधारित है ।

रसों के अतियोग के अपने अपने स्वतंत्र लक्षण और व्याधियों का वर्णन है ।

विषों के भी अतियोग के लक्षणों का वर्णन है ।

यहां शास्त्रीय आयुर्वेद औषधियों का समाविष्ट होना असंभव प्रतीत हो रहा है ।

नमो नमः ।🙏🏻🌹😌

[7/15, 7:22 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 मुझे समझ में नहीं आ रहा है ।

क्षमा प्रार्थी हूँ ।

🙏🏻😌😷

[7/15, 7:24 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 प्रणाम सर ।

ये समझ से बाहर की बात है ।

क्षमस्व ।

🙏🏻🌹

[7/15, 7:28 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

क्लेद वृद्धि कफ वृद्धि का ही एक प्रकार है । 

इसका अर्थ immunosuppression नहीं है ।

[7/15, 7:29 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

मैंने आटोइम्युनिटी और इम्युनिटी पर भी एक लेख यहाँ पर प्रस्तुत किया था, लेकिन उस पर आपने अपना मत प्रस्तुत नहीं किया. अगर गूढ विषयों पर चर्चा से बचना चाहेंगै तो हर विषय को समझना असम्भव ही होगा और लेखक भी हतोत्साहित ही होगा !

[7/15, 7:31 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

हेतु सम्प्राप्ति और चिकित्सा पर संहिता आधारित चर्चा नहीं होती है.

[7/15, 7:32 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

एक उदाहरण देता हूं . भल्लातक पर चर्चा हुई है परंतु संहिता में वर्णित संदर्भ का उल्लेख नहीं किया गया

[7/15, 7:37 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Here the Kaph har or Kaphnashak dravya refers to ojonash/ ojodushti leading to reduced immune response.

[7/15, 7:37 PM] Prof. Giriraj Sharma:

 *सादर नमन आचार्य श्री*

*भल्लातक मेधाग्नि वर्धक*

*मेधा वान  सात्विक गुण का लक्षण सु शा 1*

🌹🌹🙏🏼🙏🏼🌹🌹🙏🏼🙏🏼

[7/15, 7:38 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 🙏🏻🌹👌🏻👍🏻

1.व्यायामाच्च 2.विहाराच्च 3.विक्षिप्तत्वाच्च चेतसः ।

न क्लेदमुपगच्छन्ति 4.दिवा तेनास्य धातवः 

In the absence of of 4 as mentioned (due to lock down) Kleda is possible responsible factor.

Dr. Shailendra ji !

[7/15, 7:39 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

सादर नमस्कार आचार्य , शुरुवात से शुरु करें न कि अंत से

[7/15, 7:41 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

शुष्कार्श में वर्णित भल्लातक प्रयोग के समय विविध अनुपान/सहपान की बातें की गयी है

[7/15, 7:42 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 Modern immunosuppressant concept is totally different.

Steroids administration reflects as ojovriddhi because of water retention while actually it is not as ojovardhak.

🙏🏻🌹

[7/15, 7:43 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 The biggest plus point and saving attribute in favour of Bhallatak is its Madhur Vipak and Rasayanatva keeping the use in accordance with the prakriti of the patient and nature of the disease condition.

[7/15, 7:46 PM] Prof. Giriraj Sharma:

 सात्त्विकास्तु- आनृशंस्यं संविभागरुचिता तितिक्षा सत्यं धर्म आस्तिक्यं ज्ञानं बुद्धि *र्मेधा* स्मृतिर्धृतिरनभिषङ्गश्च; राजसास्तु- दुःखबहुलताऽटनशीलताऽधृतिरहङ्कार आनृतिकत्वमकारुण्यं दम्भो मानो हर्षः कामः क्रोधश्च; तामसास्तु- विषादित्वं नास्तिक्यमधर्मशीलता बुद्धेर्निरोधोऽज्ञानं *दुर्मेध* स्त्वमकर्मशीलता निद्रालुत्वं चेति ||१८||

भल्लातक तीक्ष्ण है अग्निप्रेरक पित्त कोपक है 

मगर मेधाग्नि वर्धक है मेधा  सात्विक लक्षण है ।

पित्तवर्धक द्रव्य भल्लातक मेधाग्नि वर्धक भी है ।

सिर्फ इतना ही मन्तव्य है मेरा 

🙏🏼🙏🏼🌹🙏🏼🙏🏼

[7/15, 7:46 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Steroids provide ' ojovriddhi abhaas' not ojovriddhi.

[7/15, 7:48 PM] Dr.Mamata Bhagwat Ji:

 Steroids suppress immune system. 

Normal immune response is also suppressed. There by Bala is reduced. Steroids reduce Ojus by increasing kleda as well as reducing Bala in the dhatu. 

🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/15, 7:48 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Ojovriddhi Aabhaas- Euphoria - Abnormal feeling of wellbeing

[7/15, 7:50 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir: 

In fact steroids destabilize immunity matrix at cellular level as well as at humoral level.

[7/15, 8:00 PM] Dr.Mamata Bhagwat Ji:

 Absolutely right sir🙏🏻🙏🏻

Immune matrix in the cell the power of cell to fight against unwanted or negative situation. 

Vyadhi utpadana pratibandhaka shakti. 

That's Bala in the morning individual cellular matrix. That's destabilized hence Bala is reduced. This immuno suppression reduces the power of cell to fight. 

When cellular matrix is disturbed the intra and extra cellular fluid mechanics is also disturbed establishing the kleda vriddhi.

[7/15, 8:17 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

🙏🏻🌹😌

[7/15, 8:19 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

Yes Sir !

That's why I requested that there is no classical drug in ayurved that acts as an immunosuppressant.

🙏🏻🌹

[7/15, 8:21 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 Nice madam !

What is your opinion about ayu drugs whether acting as immunosuppressants ?

🙏🏻🌹

[7/15, 8:45 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 Steroids *(internal body secretions similar in action of Dhatwagni component),  whenever administered externally interferes dhatwagni in extreme that leads to great imbalance in the body; being dhatwagni component it is useful in certain pathologies with its healing action at cellular level. 

As it's an external interfere in the body hence it disturbs the homeostasis in the body leading to creat a condition of 'Aavaran' as per Ayurved because there is no genuine healing or *'dosha/dhatu/mala/srotas/ojus saamya'.*

Anyone may take this as my individual hypothesis only. 

There is no any such drug in ayurved that can act similar to steroids or other immunosuppressive agent because it is chemical copied from body secretions.

I hope all experts will guide further.

🙏🏻🌹😌

[7/15, 8:51 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 Action of steroids in the body may be called *Aavaranogenesis*.

We have to develop our own understanding for many modern concept. Whatever signs and symptoms produced by

Steroidal dependency, can be understood as either Dhatwagni kshaya or dhatwagni vriddhi in some extent.

Aavaran is an essential phenomenon to be present definitely.

🙏🏻🌹

[7/15, 8:51 PM] Dr.Mamata Bhagwat Ji:

 🙏🏻🙏🏻sir,

Kleda vriddhi karaka, that initiate cellular debris are immuno suppressant. 

Single drug like 

1. Partheniun

2. Any visha dravya without shodhana like that of vatsanabha, langali, 

3. Viruddha dravyas are ojo nashaka.

They trigger wrong immune response, destabilizing the natural power to fight. 

They initiate cell injury, inducing hyperemia, localised/ generalized kleda vriddhi. 

These drugs need not be steroidal. Nonsteroidal also may act like this. 

Immuno suppression action is definitely by a visha dravya. 

This is my hypotheses about immuno suppressant drug. I may be wrong. 🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/15, 8:55 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 Thanks madam !

As you mentioned these visha dravyas action is state forward no false healing, 

No water retention etc.

No false feeling of well being.

We are to consider all aspects.

🙏🏻🌹

[7/15, 8:55 PM] Dr. Ashwani Kumar Sood:

 👍🏻✅

[7/15, 9:05 PM] Dr. Ashwani Kumar Sood:

 Steroids find lot of uses- inhaled steroids in microliters are used as anti inflammatory and not as immunosuppresants . Their immunosuppression dose is quite high as in SARCADOSIS its as high as 1 mg / kg  body weight and it's first line drug here. Basically there is another class of IMMUNOSUPRSSANTS and also known as DISEASE MODIFYING AGENTS like AZITHOPRIM .

[7/15, 9:12 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

🙏🏻🌹

[7/15, 9:18 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir: 

You are right - vish dravas have properties opposite to those of Oja.

[7/15, 9:19 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 All can be categorized as Dhatwagni modifying agents. There is no any other closest correlation in Ayurved.

ह्रासहेतु विशेषश्च प्रवृतिरुभयस्तु ।

🙏🏻🌹😌

[7/15, 9:22 PM] Dr. Ashwani Kumar Sood:

 Followed drji

[7/15, 9:23 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 Namaste Sir !

Is 'ojonash' is sufficient to categorize immunosuppressive drugs ?

विषं तु तिलं दध्यात् । ये रसायन कहा गया है ।

🙏🏻🌹😌

[7/15, 9:24 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 ओजोनाश का मैकेनिज्म भी देखना पड़ेगा ।

🙏🏻🌹

[7/15, 9:26 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Oja is sarvdhatu saar, so ojonash/Ojobhransh involves jeopardized integrity of all dhatus.

[7/15, 9:30 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

जी आदरणीय सर ।

नमो नमः ।

धात्वाग्नि वैषम्य/स्रोतो वैगुण्य से ही ओजोनाश की संभावना रहती है ।

मेरी क्षुद्र बुद्धि से ।

🌹🙏🏻

[7/15, 9:34 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

Only ojonash/bhransh action of immunosuppressant drugs may raise question about the healing action of steroids for it is being used/indicated.

Ojonash is terminal phenomenon, as I understand; and this is too because of dhatwagni modifying action.

My hypothesis only.

🙏🏻🌹😌

[7/15, 9:41 PM] Prof. Giriraj Sharma: 

ओज क्षय का प्रथम लक्षण है 

*विभेति*

[7/15, 9:41 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

👍🏻🙏🏻👌🏻

[7/15, 9:42 PM] Dr. Satish Jaimini: 

मन को व्यथित करने वाले सभी भाव ओज नाशक हैं

[7/15, 9:42 PM] Dr. Ashwani Kumar Sood:

 OJONASH is not the goal of immunosupressant drugs , the aim of suppression is  autoimmunity. Allopathy system doesn't recognise  OJA

[7/15, 9:43 PM] Prof. Giriraj Sharma: 

दुर्मन भी ओज क्षय का ही लक्षण है

[7/15, 9:43 PM] Dr. Ashwani Kumar Sood:

 सही

[7/15, 9:43 PM] Dr. Satish Jaimini:

 इसके लिए ही प्रसन्नतमेन्द्रीय शब्द का प्रयोग किया गया है

[7/15, 9:45 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 Deviation from basic topic.

[7/15, 10:05 PM] Dr. Satish Jaimini: 

पीपली लवण क्षार का अधिक प्रयोग नहीं करने का निर्देश ओजनाशक होने के कारण ही वर्जित है

[7/15, 10:07 PM] Dr. Satish Jaimini: 

ऐसा ही कुछ विष उपविषों के लिए है

[7/15, 10:08 PM] Dr. Satish Jaimini: 

शोधन के उपरान्त भी इन द्रव्यों की मात्रा अल्पतम रखे जाने के पीछे भी यही कारण है कि ओज को कोई हानि नहीं हो

[7/15, 10:11 PM] Dr. Satish Jaimini:

 एक निवाई के कोई बजुर्ग थे वो शंखिया को रसायन में प्रयोग करते थे उनके पास कोई पेंसिल जैसी शलाका थी उसको जीभ पर एक बार खींचते थे यह  ओजोवर्धक थी

[7/15, 10:16 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Ojodushti, Ojobhransh Ojokshaye are the tar tam stages of the same phenomenon of loss of attributes of Oja (immunity matrix). Actions of steroids are divergent towards immunosuppression and to facilitate the healing process. We should not co-relate immunosuppressive action with healing action as the steroids are synthetic analogues of harmones.

[7/15, 10:21 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 Very well conclusion Sir.

🙏🏻😌

[7/15, 10:22 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 Few words were expected from you on Dhatwagni vaishamya.

🙏🏻😌🌹🌻

[7/15, 10:55 PM] Prof. Giriraj Sharma:

 *प्रथम जायते ओज अस्मिन शरीरे*

सर्व धातु निर्माण से पहले या धातु निर्माण बाद,,,

🌹🌹🙏🏼🌹🌹🙏🏼🌹🌹

[7/15, 11:04 PM] Dr. Pratibha Ji: 

Many of our prominent guru & Acharya have already given there enlightened views on immunosuppression in Ayurveda i just want to correlate the whole process with autoimmune disorders & Ayurveda. 

Autoimmune disorders occur when your body’s cells fail to recognize each other and mistakenly start attacking healthy cells. If left untreated, this eventually creates inflammation and can cascade into a variety of diseases such as: Rheumatoid arthritis (most prevalent), Lupus, Irritable Bowel Syndrome, Chron’s Disease, Ulcerative Colitis, Guillaine-Barre Syndrome, Psoriasis, Rosacea, Multiple Sclerosis, Myasthenia Gravis, Vasculitis, Hashimotos Thyroiditis, Type 1 Diabetes-mellitus or Polymylesitis.

In Autoimmune disorders the basic management principle is use of immunosuppressant drugs like corticosteroids

The disease and progression varies per individual. Non-specific symptoms at the onset of the disease process make diagnosis a challenge from a western/allopathic medical perspective, because allopathic medicine relies on symptomatic treatment. When the inflammation is widespread and the disease is well established, allopathic doctors respond by treating the symptoms (inflammation). But providing symptomatic relief is merely suppressing the cause and complicating the underlying condition

To discover the root cause of autoimmune disorders, Ayurveda looks at what caused the inflammation and works backward: inflammation is caused by lack of cellular recognition/communication; the breakdown in communication is due to cells being covered with “ama” the ama is here caused by mandagni and contributing in ojovisramsa ie impairment of distribution of ojus dhatu or tissue & ojo vyapat ie change in or modification of natural properties of ojas much effected with ama but this process in long term results in oja kshsya.  Therefore, the ayurveda treatment focuses on restoring agni and ojas.

 So what should be the principle behind the management of these disorder

Aampachan 

Sanshodhan

Ojovriddhi

& use of rasayan 

So what does rasayan do in this whole process basically when we are done with breaking the whole cascade of autoimmune disorders our motives becomes to avoid the reoccurrence of the disorders so In these case our Acharyas have advocated the use of Naimittika Rasayan 

So how does these work?

Rasayna agent acts mainly

on the following three levels which are 

Rasa , Srotas , Agni

& Ojus

Rasayana agents must enrich the 

nutritional quality of Poshaka 

Rasa as most of them physically contain 

high quality of nutrients in their bulk and 

when administered, they are added to the 

pool of nutrition present in the Poshaka 

Rasa and in turn help in improving in Dhatu

Poshana  

Agni

Rasayana agents improve the Agni

and thus promote Dhatu Poshana. Most of the 

Rasayana drugs are known to have Deepana 

 and Pachana 

properties by the virtue of their qualities like 

Laghu, Ushna  or by Prabhava, thereby promote the functions of 

Agni for the digestion of food and the 

DathvAgni to vitalize the metabolic 

resulting in turn to improved nutritional 

status at the level of Dhatu.

Srotas

Most of the Rasayana drugs 

promote the competence of Srotas leading 

to the better bio availability of nutrients to 

the tissues and improve tissue 

perfusion. 

This is another mode through which a 

Rasayana agent may help in promotion of 

Dhatusamyata or Dhatu with optimum 

quality. 

Rasayana by virtue of these qualities, 

actions and Prabhava  promote Ojas

& help to cure chronic disease hence  these actions of Rasayan  helps in immunomodulation promoting health & avoiding reoccurrence of disease.🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽

[7/15, 11:05 PM] Vd.Divyesh Desai :

 ओजस्तु तेजो धातूनां,

शुक्रान्तानाम परं स्मृतम

हृदयस्थम अपि व्यापि

देह स्थिति निबन्धनम।

शुद्धम सोमात्मकम स्निग्धम

ईषत लोहित पितकं,

यन्नाशे नियतं नाशो

यस्मीन तिष्ठति तिष्ठति।

युगपघते यतो भाव

विविध देह संश्रिता ।।

ओज का ये श्लोक क्या कह  रहा है,गुरुजनो

[7/15, 11:22 PM] Vd.Divyesh Desai :

 ये अष्ट बिंदु ओज के संदर्भ में है...

रस से शुक्र तक कि 7 धातु का सार भाग ओर 8 वा 

7 धातु का कंबाइन सार भाग

ऐसे 8 बिंदु......

सात धातु के कलर अनुसार 

शुद्ध,श्वेत, लोहित,पित आदि धातुओं के कलर के हिसाब से ओज का वर्ण बताया है, ओर हृदय के अलावा  पूरे देह में ओज का स्थान बताया है इनके नाश से चोककस नाश होता है किंतु किसका? इनका मतलब 8 बिंदु में से कौन से धातु का तेजोमय भाग का नाश अर्थात धातवाग्नि का नाश हुआ और इस धातु से रिलेटेड प्रोब्लेम्स की शुरूआत हुई,अगर यही धातवाग्नि उत्तम कार्य कर रही है तो शरीर को निरोगी ओर तंदुरुस्त रख रही है, यही ओज संज्ञा वाले शरीर मे विविध प्रकार के तत्व जैसे

प्राकृत कफ,

प्राकृत जठराग्नि,

प्राकृत वायु,

प्राकृत पित ओर जो जो तंदुरस्ती देने वाले भाव है, ये सभी ओज ही है।।🙏🏻🙏🏻

ये मेरी अल्प मति से ओज को समझने का प्रयास है, आदरणीय गुरुजनो से कर बद्ध निवेदन है कि ओज के बारे में अधिक ज्ञान दे।

जय आयुर्वेद,जय धन्वंतरि

[7/15, 11:24 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 Excellent description with great details Dr. Pratibha ji.

Thanks for this.

It's important that the basic question was that 

*"can ayurved drugs lead to immunosuppressive action...?"*

🙏🏻🌹

[7/15, 11:26 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 Divyesh Sir !👆🏻👆🏻

This was the main question by Dr. Shailendra !

We had great discussion on Ojus and it's available on Kaya chikitsa blog.

🙏🏻🌹

[7/15, 11:32 PM] Vd.Divyesh Desai : 

सर, प्रणाम

क्या रस वह स्त्रोत्स से रिलेटेड कौन कौन से Autoimmune डिसऑर्डर है, रक्तवह स्त्रोत्ससे रिलेटेड कौन से autoimmune डिसऑर्डर है, ऐसे सभी धातु के आधार पर या स्त्रोत्स के आधार पर autoimmune diseases की डिसकस करने से चिकित्सा के बारे में भी सरलता रहेगी...🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/15, 11:52 PM] Vd.Divyesh Desai : 

🙏🏻🙏🏻

कृपया 

बाल्य वृद्धि छवि मेघा,

त्वक द्रष्टि शुक्र विक्रमः

बुद्धि कर्मेन्द्रीयसचेति

जीवितों दशकं हृसेत्त।।

क्या हर एक दशक के रसायन द्रव्य के सेवन करने से ऑटो इम्यून डीसीस से बच सकते है ? या फिर नैमित्तिक रसायन का सेवन रोग शमन के पश्चात ही करना चाहिए ? 

क्या अब तक जितने ऑटो इम्यून diseases ज्ञात हुए है, इनसे भी कई ज्यादा अभी भी अज्ञात है?इस पर प्रकाश डालने की विनंती है, प्रणाम

🙏🏻🙏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[7/16, 12:03 AM] Vd.Arun Rathi Sir : 

क्या आयुर्वेद के मूल संहिताओं मे ओज के प्रकार बताए है या यह परतंत्र सिध्दांत के अनुसार पर और अपर ओज भेद हुए है*

🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/16, 12:06 AM] Dr. Pratibha Ji: 

🙏🏽🙏🏽Sir in my view Ayurveda drugs are not meant for immunosuppression but for immunomodulation

The word “modulate” means to modify or alter. So immunomodulatory drugs, simply put, tend to tip the scales towards modifying the terrain of the immune system towards a more balanced state. In autoimmune disease, you have the immune system chronically communicating in a way that results in imbalance.

Here we will understand the whole process with the Upman Praman 

While understanding the modern perspective on autoimmune disorders

 “autoinflammatory” conditions as excessive innate immune activity, and autoimmune as excessive specific immune signaling. And then within specific immune signaling, you have too much of certain T-cell responses occurring, which we refer to as TH-1 and TH-2. You can think of these T-cells as conductors of an orchestra, directing all of the signaling by the different players involved in the entire immune cascade

An example of a non pharmacologic immune modulator is Vitamin A.  It works by supporting signaling of toll-like receptors on what we call antigen presenting cells, which send information to the conductors of the orchestra we discussed above. 

Suppress” is to quiet, block, or shut down. This is essentially what immunosuppressants do. Think of immunomodulators as tweaking the noise and suppressants as totally shutting it down. So going back to the orchestra, the modulators might change the music a bit, where the suppressants will quiet it entirely, or at least make it really difficult to hear.

The best known are glucocorticoids, referred to as “steroids.” Prednisone is most often used. It works by blocking an enzyme called Phospholipase A2, which is an enzyme that aids in the generation of signaling molecules within each immune cell that allows for the generation of text messages to be sent back and forth between immune cells that supports the inflammatory response.

Let's discuss Haritaki which is

highly potent antioxidant, which is responsible for its immunomodulatory activity . Its extract neutralizes reactive oxygen species (ROS) and scavenges free radicals. The free radicals are responsible for causing inflammation by stimulating release of cytokines such as IL-1, TNF-a and IFN-ß, which stimulate additional neutrophils and macrophages at site of inflammation ( this whole process can be understood in Ayurveda in terms of mandagni and aam production which as explained before by virtue of deepan pachan srotosodhan and ojovardghan property).

Thus we can say that there is no concept of immunosupressent present in Ayurveda but the term more likely to be immunomodulation.🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽

[7/16, 12:09 AM] Vd.Divyesh Desai :

 सर,अष्टाङ्ग हृदय में ओज के बारे में जो बताया है, इस पर एक आयुर्वेद के विद्वान ने ओज के बारे में describe अपने हाइपोथिसिस के आधार पर किया था, जिससे में कन्विंस हो गया था।।🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/16, 12:10 AM] Vd.Arun Rathi Sir :

 *नमस्कार दिवेशभाई*

🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/16, 12:13 AM] Vd.Divyesh Desai : 

🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾प्रणाम सर

[7/16, 12:20 AM] Vd.Divyesh Desai : 

👌🏽👌🏽🙏🏻🙏🏻इस लिए कोरोना में cytokines strom में भी आयुर्वेदिक मेडिसिन्स कारगत साबित हुई।। आपने हरीतकी का उदाहरण दिया, जो अनुलोमन, दीपन, पाचन सबमे उपयोगी है।। 🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/16, 12:32 AM] Dr. Pratibha Ji: 

Sir when we are healthy using Kamya Rasayan/ Ajasrik Rasayan ( type of food kalpa used as rasayan) we can avoid most of the autoimmune disorders as there principle of action is same and most of the Kamya Rasayan can be used as Naimittika Rasayan like haritaki, Chyawanprash, Pippali Rasayan, Bhallatak Rasayan, Nirgundi kalpa, Bhringraj, Mulethi, Giloya etc so if we use Kamya rasayan undoubtedly it helps to avoid autoimmune disorders but it have to be kept in mind that before using any Rasayan we have undergo with sanshodhan process too.

It might be possible in modern pathy year after year there might be discovery of many new autoimmune disorders but in Ayurveda we follow principle based study so wether a disease come with a new the principle of its chikitsa in Ayurveda would remain the same🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽

[7/16, 12:35 AM] Vd.Divyesh Desai : 

🙏🏻🙏🏻Thanks a lot..

Only follow the Ayurved .... Don't worry about Auto immune disorder👌🏽👌🏽

[7/16, 5:43 AM] Vd.V.B.Pandey : 

Great Knowledge Shared and that also to the point. One point I would like to add is Rasayan also act as pragybodhi and Medhya as well. 🙏

[7/16, 6:38 AM] Dr. Pawan Madan: 

Good mng sir.

Great conclusion !

[7/16, 6:41 AM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Instead of Dhatwagni vaishamya, it seems more relevant to consider  srotovaishamya (parinaman dushti) as the causative for immunosuppression.

[7/16, 8:05 AM] Dr. Pawan Madan: 

Good article with basic knowledge for youngsters.

Thanks.

The question in discussion is ... Is there any ayurveda dravya which act as immunosuppressant ?

[7/16, 9:50 AM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir: 

Dr Pratibha, you have nicely explained the Ayurvedic perspective of  causation, onset and progression of autoimmune disorders. In fact, Ayurveda holds much potential to manage autoimmune disorders limited to functional disintegrity with the use of Samshodhan Chikitsa and followed by Rasayana Aushadhies having srotoprasadak properties to restore the structural integrity of the cells/tissues to facilitate proper nirman- poshan of poshya dhatus by correcting sravan and parinaman of poshak dhatus. Without proper  parinaman of aahar and aushadh in the body system we can not expect proper nourishment and integrity of the cells/tissues to happen.

[7/16, 10:38 AM] Prof. Satish Panda:

 https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphar.2020.583777/full

Natural immunosuppressant compounds, derived from plant sources like curcumin, luteolin, piperine, resveratrol are known to inhibit the production and release of pro-inflammatory cytokines and chemokines(Ama)

Drugs used in autoimmune disorders are Ama Pachak, Agni Vardhak, Sroto Sodhak drugs with Kaphaghan,Pittaghan, Vataghna properties.

🙏🏻

[7/16, 11:36 AM] Vd Shailendra Mehta:

 विषयों, (आहार, विहार, विचार)  का असात्मेय इंद्रियार्थ संयोग, प्रज्ञापराध, काल/परिणाम . . इन से ही व्याधि/दुख उत्पन्न होते है अतः सृष्टि के सर्व विषय(तर तम भेद सहित) बल/ओज/immunity, वर्धक होने के साथ साथ,उसी बल etc. को कम या विकृत(ओजो०यापद,ओजोविस्रन्स,क्षय) भी कर सकते हैं,,,,उदा-जो दूध, घृत ओजोवर्धक है, वही अग्नी की मंदता में, अजीर्ण में, नवज्वर में etc. में विष समान कार्य कर, indirectly immunity suppressant की तरह काम करेगा,,,, विषकन्या को विष सात्मय करा देते थे,,, वो उसके लि सात्म्य संयोग हूआ ,, अतः विष होते हूए भी उसके लिए ओज हानी/immunosuppressive नहीं होगा,,, अतः यह पुरुषं पुरुषं वीक्षये  ,,,subjective है,,,, कृपया सर्व गुरुजन मेरी त्रुटि सुधार अवश्य करें🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/16, 12:28 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

अव्यक्त से व्यक्त की यात्रा ; 

एक रहस्य फिर भी आचार्यो ने उसे स्पष्ट किये . सृष्टी निर्माण और  पुरुष निर्माण एक प्रक्रिया के तहत सम्पादित हुई और अनवरत शुरु है और रहेगी. जन्म और मरण एक प्रक्रिया ही है, इसी प्रकार एक कोशिका विशेष रुप से व्याधि क्षमत्व में भाग लेने वाली कोशिकाओं के साथ होता है. विभिन्न प्रकार की कोशिकाओं का उद्भव जन्म के समय हो जाता है और कुछ धीरे धीरे विकसित होती है, विकास एक स्वभावतः प्रक्रिया है. इसी विकास के क्रम में मनुष्यों में अति विशिष्ट व्याधि क्षमत्व विकसित हुआ, हजारों साल लगा इस विकास के लिये. ये कोशिकाएं और उनसे उत्पन्न उत्पाद शरीर सुरक्षा में अनवरत कार्य करते रहते हैं, कार्य करना है तो ऊर्जा चाहिए, निर्मिती, परिभ्रमण में भी ऊर्जा खर्च होती है, जिसके लिये अग्नि व्यापार और अग्नि के उत्तेजक भाव भी है जो प्रक्रिया में भाग लेते हैं. कुछ कोशिकाएं घूमती रहती है कुछ स्थान विशेष पर सुरक्षा व्यवस्था देखती है, इसमे इनके निर्मिती से लेकर मृत्यु तक एक सुव्यवस्थित तंत्र कार्य करता है जो कि वात के अधिन है, वात से उत्प्रेरणा, विभाजन, गति नियंत्रण, और विशिष्ट बाह्य असात्म्य पदार्थ की समझ और विशिष्ट बाह्य पदार्थ के लिये विशिष्ट कोशिकाएं और उनके उत्पादों को कार्य में लगाना अभिष्ट है . गति नियंत्रण के लिये कफ भी भाग लेता है, चल और स्थिर, अप्रतिघात और प्रतिघात में एक सह सम्बन्ध है जिससे कोशिकाओं के प्राकृतस्थ रखने में सहयोग मिलता है. यही प्राकृतस्थ न रह पाने पर व्याधि क्षमत्व की हानि सम्भाव्य है. घूमती हुई कोशिकाएं अपने शरीर के सभी कोशिकाओं को पहचान लेती है, और कभी कभी इस पहचान में वैषम्य आने से अपनी ही कोशिकाओं को बाह्य असात्म्य पदार्थ समझ लेती है फिर खेल शुरु होता है autoimmunity का और विभिन्न प्रकार के रोगो का, लेकिन इस प्रक्रिया में शरीरस्थ सुरक्षा कर्मचारी सतत भाग लेते हैं. व्याधिक्षमत्व प्रक्रिया को प्राकृतस्थ रखने में त्रिदोष को योगदान महत्त्वपूर्ण है . 

कार्याधिक्य को कम करने का कार्य कफ धर्मिय द्रव्य  और कार्याल्पता को वृद्धि हेतु वात धर्मिय द्रव्य भाग लेते हैं, यही द्रव्य क्रमश:  immunosuppressants & immunostimulants के नाम से जाने जाते हैं..

[7/16, 12:28 PM] Dr. Gurdip Sing Sir:

 Vishaya are not ahar etc but shabad sparsa  rup rasa and gandh. ahar etc are hetu

 For details please see Charak sutra 11 trini ayatanani

[7/16, 12:46 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir: 

And transformation (parinaman) of Kaphdharmiye dravyas and Vaatdharmiye dravyas is possible only with the help of Pittadharmiye dravyas.

[7/16, 12:48 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

*Yes sir ji , that transformation also help in saatmiyakarana*

[7/16, 12:48 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

🙏🙏

[7/16, 12:50 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

बुद्धि वैषम्य होते ही भाई भाई को मार देता है यही तो है autoimmune phenomenon

[7/16, 1:04 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Dr Ojha, understanding the fate of three sisters (Vaat- Pitta- Kapha)  in the fight among brothers is most important to control the autoimmune phenomenon. 😌😌

[7/16, 1:05 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

क्या बात है सर जी.. 🙏🙏

[7/16, 1:08 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir: 

Dhatu Nirman - Poshan - Santarpan  all depends upon atamsaat capacity of the cells/tissues.

[7/16, 1:09 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha:

 जो कि स्वभावतः होता रहता है

[7/16, 1:10 PM] Dr. Pawan Madan: 

The term immunosuppresent has been coined for a specific action which is the supression of function of any one or two of the immune system cells like T cell or NK cells or specific antibodies.

These actions have been specified or manifested through some well defined chemicals.

I think what the stalwarts are saying Immunosuppresants in Ayurveda .....are actually not working on the same pattern.

The ayurvedic herbs are working to stablize the deranged physiological processes which result in auto immunity. These herbs and medicines break out the samprapti and restore the precesses to normal, which results in the normal physiology.

Definitely these herbs and medicines work on the principles of Rasa Guna Virya Vipaak and Prabhaav.

So when these herbs modify the pathology and restore the normalcy, it appears that they are pruducing an immuno suppresant effect but actually it is not the suppression but it is the state of restoeing the normalcy.

So in a way ..... these appear as immunosuppprasnt but they are not.

These herbs dont suppress the immune cells like the chemicals.

And when the treatment with these herbs and ayu med is complete, the action sustains in the body unless the hetu sewan is done again. But with the immunosupprasnt drugs the action sustains as long as these are consumed.

My small understanding....🙏🙏🙏

[7/16, 1:18 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha:

 Subtypes of T lymphocytes

Effector Cells.

Cytotoxic T Cells. Cytotoxic T Cells, also known as CD8+ cells, have the primary job to kill toxic/target cells. ... 

Helper T Cells. ... 

Regulatory T Cells. ... 

Memory T Cells.

अब इस प्रकार की कोशिकाओ को आयुर्वेद ज्ञान के आधार पर समझना अपेक्षित है

[7/16, 1:24 PM] Vd Mayur Kulkarni:

 विषमाभिनिवेशो ये नित्यानित्य हिताहि ते । ज्ञेयः स बुद्धि : विभ्रंशः । समं बुध्दिः हि पश्यति। If buddhi vibransha of cell result in autoimmune disease then can medhya Rasayana will be useful in such cases?

[7/16, 1:26 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha:

 Immunosuppressants and immunostimulants are found in herbs and work accordingly

[7/16, 1:27 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Definitely, this is reason why the action of guduchi is broad spectrum

[7/16, 1:28 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Guduchi is - physico-chemico-psycho-immunomodulator.

[7/16, 1:29 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Yes sir ji, 

I am agreed, and inclusion of medhya dravya will increase efficacy of combination .. thanks sir ji .. I will add now

[7/16, 1:30 PM] Dr. Pavan mali Sir:

 Many more drugs like pippali,bhallatak which are acting on medha are helpful in autoimmune disorders

[7/16, 1:30 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Tathastu !

[7/16, 1:31 PM] Dr. Pawan Madan: 

Ji sir.

I said the same, but their outcome and final result is different so they are not direct immunosuppresant or immunostimulants.

[7/16, 1:33 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

लंघन उपवास से है और मुस्तादि से भी फिर outcome तो एक ही है और ऐसा ही आमवात में मिलता है

[7/16, 1:35 PM] Dr. Pawan Madan: 

The action of ayu herbs is corrective but that of immunosuppressive chemicals is suppressive.

[7/16, 1:39 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha:

 Autoimmune biomarkers are reduced by langhan and mustaadi dravya show their actions as suppressants not as disease modifier

[7/16, 1:40 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Disease modifying action is achieved only after judicious use of sanshodhan

[7/16, 1:43 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

This is reason why langhan is initial treatment plan and basti is planned later ..लंघनं स्वेदनं..... बस्ति: च आममारुते

[7/16, 1:43 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

चक्रदत्त

[7/16, 1:46 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Correction of autoimmune phenomenon is not so easy , it needs pathya ,  sanshamana , sanshodhan , and satvavajaya chikitsa : the complete treatment plan..

[7/16, 1:50 PM] Vd Shailendra Mehta: 

🧎🏻‍♂️🧎🏻‍♂️🧎🏻‍♂️🌷🌷🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/16, 1:50 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha:

 Immunosuppressant drugs are used to treat autoimmune diseases. With an autoimmune disease, the immune system attacks the body's own tissue. Because immunosuppressant drugs weaken the immune system, they suppress this reaction. This helps reduce the impact of the autoimmune disease on the body.

Immunosuppressants act on various processes of autoimmune diseases not only on chemical or biomarkers

[7/16, 1:51 PM] Dr. Santanu Das: 

Sir as per my knowledge is concerned with appropriate pathya .... Sudarsana phanta having excellent out come in Autoimmune disorders....

My personal experience🙏

[7/16, 1:54 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Mahasudarshan is one of my choice of drugs in autoimmune diseases even in vitiligo and type 1 DM

[7/16, 1:54 PM] Vd Shailendra Mehta:

 Resp.Sir...

May I say that autoimmunity(in limits) is an integral, unavoidable  part of our healthy  system.... When it's out of bounds then only pathological conditions start🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/16, 1:55 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha:

 Causes of immune suppression..

 Common infections, including influenza and mononucleosis, can suppress the immune system. When immune cells are the target of infection, severe immune suppression can occur. For example, HIV specifically infects T cells, and their elimination allows for secondary infections by other pathogens.

[7/16, 1:55 PM] Dr.Santanu Das: 

I am also giving it in SLE

[7/16, 1:56 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir: 

Tikta Rasa itself being rich in Vayu and Akaash is bitter tonic (Prasadak)  for autoimmune phenomenon.

[7/16, 1:56 PM] Vd Raghuram Y. S, :

 *Ayurveda Understanding of Immunosuppression*

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

*Very good discussion about immunosupression and autoimmune disorders by gurujans and stalwarts of the group* 🙏🙏💐👌❤

*I just want to add my perspective for this discussion* 👇👇

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

The concept of autoimmunity and autoimmune disorders is *not new* for Ayurveda.

*Doesn’t the dosha concept itself indicate the inborne preparedness of autoimmunity?*

👉 The term dosha itself suggests *something which contaminates the body components*. 

👉 The balanced doshas are helpful in easy and effortless running of the body functions. 

But the *same doshas tend to invade the body components when they get vitiated* .

👉 So, as per Ayurveda, *_the human body is composed of the same components which are helpful as well as destructive_* When the doshas attack the body’s defenses i.e. the tissues and organs and srotases, they cause many diseases.

👉 Having said this, *all Nija Rogas cannot be autoimmune disorders* Only those diseases in which the tissues and srotas and ojas are destroyed to the point of no-return or suggesting bad prognosis due to they being afflicted by the vitiated doshas can be considered as autoimmune.

👉 *The doshas invading the components of its own system can be seen as the ‘autoimmune processes* 

👉 We also need to see that the same doshas and dushyas have the *ashraya ashrayi sambandha* . So the *ashrayi is destroying the ashraya in spite of belonging to the same system*

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

The *secret of understanding which diseases turn into autoimmune disorders lay in the concept of sadhyasadhyata mentioned in the diseases*  Asadhya and Yapya diseases can be considered as autoimmune disorders so as some krichchrasadhya diseases.

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

Therefore the *doshas which have a natural tendency to invade and the dhatus which have a tendency to resist the invasion – both coexist in the same body without afflicting each other* 

*Dosha-dushya sammurchana in which the disturbed doshas invade its own system i.e. weakened and susceptible tissues indicate the onset of autoimmune disorders* 

The earlier they are identified, the earlier they can be aborted. 

This also indicates the earliest and oldest explanation of autoimmunity.

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

*Rogastu Dosha Vaishamyam – Dosha Samyam Arogata – is a golden reference to tell that we live with the friends which can turn foes at anytime*

*Doshas are masked missiles. Their intelligence is to attack but this intelligence is masked. When we change the programming and decode them, their masked intelligence gets exposed and they attack the system in which they are in. Otherwise they are programmed to protect our system*

*Prakritastu Balam Shleshma, vikruto malam uchyate* too speaks about the same.

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

We also get clues from *Visarga Adana Vikshepa* functions of doshas. 

*_Protective wind, fire and water become all destroying when they get aggravated and destroy the same universe which they create and guard by taking the form of tornadoes, volcanoes and tsunamis respectively_* Same is the case with doshas.

So, *when the doshas go berserk, not only our body components are destroyed but our immunity is compromised. In other sense, the body’s immunity powers are becoming autoimmune*  

*Samadosha Samagnischa Samadhatu Malakriayah, Prasanna Atma Indriya Manasascha Swastha Iti Abhidhiyate*

The definition of comprehensive health in Ayurveda suggests the *balance between all its components* , individual and related balance. Imbalance leads to diseases

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

*What is the remedy?*

Since the doshas are hyperactive, they are causing the diseases. Therefore their *hyperactivity should be suppressed*

👉 *_Vasti, Virechana and Vamana are the best remedies for expelling the hyperactive doshas. Shodhana / Panchakarma measures are the best immunosuppressive therapies from Ayurveda perspective_*

👉 *_Rasayanas are said to be given after Shodhana as a mandatory rule. Rasayanas can be considered as immune modulators_*

*So in hyperactivity of doshas, the shodhana prakriyas should be done first. This is immunosupression*

Then we can find that the body components will come to a state of balance. Later we can *enhance the immunity of the tissues by administration of Rasayanas. This is immunomodulation*

*Shamana* can be considered if there are few symptom recurrences following ideal treatment, symptoms which recur in small scales and do not cause much disturbance.

*Ayurveda immunotherapy i.e. immunosupression or modulation or combination of both consists of shodhana and rasayana therapies as first hand and best options*

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

*Types of immunosuppression*

Modern science tells that *immunosuppression may cause immunodeficiency* 

Therefore *samyak shuddhi lakshanas should be looked for* Atishuddhi or hina shuddhi may once again play with our immunity.

*_Samyak shuddhi plus Rasayana done with proper logic and effective administration can be seen as apunarbhava chikitsa_*

Modern science speaks about *deliberate and non-deliberate types of immunosupression*

👉 *Shodhana, shamana, types of langhana, rasayana, etc can be viewed as examples of deliberate immunosupression* wherein we are trying to suppress the hyperactive components of immune system and rejuvenate the tissues enhancing their defense mechanism and also trying to see that there are no recurrences.

👉 *Non-deliberate immunosupression may occur due to immune-deficiency and endogenous factors leading to lowering of immunity and weakening immune system* 

Ayurveda understanding leads us to consider one or more of the below mentioned concepts –

✔ decrease of vyadhi kshamatva

✔ kapha kshaya

✔ vata-pitta vriddhi

✔ imbalance and various stages of 

✔ ojus imbalance

✔ agni vaishamya

✔ srotodushti

✔ mala sanchaya

✔formation and circulation of ama, sama doshas etc

This type of immunosupression may lead to the *causation of many disorders or provide a platform wherein increased susceptibility to the diseases can be seen* 

These conditions may be *treated on the principles of treating these conditions as mentioned in classics or on the basis of yukti*

*Many Herbs, herbo-mineral compounds and parts of dietetic regimen can play immune-supressive or modulation role individually or in combination to the therapies as part of shamana and pathya kalpas. I am not touching on this point. Ayurveda emphasis on comprehensive approach including Nidana Parivarjana*

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

*My Small Understanding of Ayurveda Immunosupression…* 🙏💐

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

*_Dr Raghuram_* 

[7/16, 1:58 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha:

 It's avoidable if Aahaara, vihaara , manasika bhaava and sahaja bhaava are appropriate ..

Sahaja bhaava is also very important this is reason why koola is given importance for shaaririka and maanasika bala

[7/16, 1:59 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Wonderful explanation 👍

[7/16, 1:59 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Yes sir ji.

Katu ➡️ vaayu + Agni 

Tikta➡️ vaayu + aakaasha

[7/16, 1:59 PM] Vd Shailendra Mehta:

 Welcome Sir,you were desperately needed....In this discussion🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/16, 2:02 PM] Vd Shailendra Mehta:

 Very well said Sir....👌🏻👌🏻🌷

[7/16, 2:12 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Nicely presented by you Dr Raghuram Bhatt..

One thing I wish to add here ; 

अक्षीणबलमांसस्य रक्तपित्तं यदश्रत:, तद्दोषदुष्टमुत्क्लिष्टं नादौ स्तम्भनमर्हति.

गलग्रहं पूतिनस्यं मूर्च्छायमरुचिं ज्वरम्. गुल्मं प्लीहानमानाहं किलासं कृच्छमूत्रताम् .

कुष्ठान्यर्शांसि वीसर्पं वर्णनाशं भगन्दरम्. बुद्धीन्द्रियोपरोधं च कुर्यात् स्तम्भितमादित:.

च.चि.४/२५-२७.

[7/16, 2:12 PM] Vd Shailendra Mehta: 

सर, श्री ब्रह्मा और शंकर जी एक ही शक्ति स्वरूप से विपरीत कार्य करते है।  उत्पति,,,,संहार,,,अतः शरीर की जीर्ण ,मरणासन धातुओं को,, destiny तक पहुंचाना,,auto immunity का ही प्राकृत  कर्म हो सकता है🙏🏻

[7/16, 2:15 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha:

 मैं समझ नहीं सका

[7/16, 2:18 PM] Vd Shailendra Mehta:

 गुरुजी,cells की natural death...उनकी Immunity की death के कारण हो सकती है क्या,,,🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/16, 2:25 PM] Dr. Satish Jaimini:

 Pranam guruji बहुत उपयोगी तथ्य 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻बताए आपने

[7/16, 2:27 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

हो सकती है और भी कारणों से भी हो सकती है

[7/16, 2:27 PM] Dr. Satish Jaimini: 

जी गुरुजी  पिंड ब्रहम्माण्ड न्याय है🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/16, 2:33 PM] Vd Shailendra Mehta: 

🙏🏻🙏🏻सर,मैनें इसिलिए natural death कहा है,,,इसका कारण तो एक ही होगा ,,,आयुपूर्णता,,,मतलब,शरीर में कोई तो शक्ति है जो anti life काम करती है,,,,उसे auto immunity कह सकते हैं क्या🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/16, 2:35 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

नहीं

[7/16, 2:37 PM] Vd Shailendra Mehta: 

🙏🏻🙏🏻जी सर, तो उसे क्या कह सकते हैं,,,मृत्युकारणीभूत शक्ति को🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/16, 2:44 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Death is the permanent, irreversible cessation of all biological functions that sustain a living organism. ... Death is generally applied to whole organisms; the similar process seen in individual components of a living organism, such as cells or tissues, is necrosis.

[7/16, 2:46 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

शरीर का मतलब ही है क्षरण ; शृयते अनेन इति शरीरम् ..

एक स्वाभाविक प्रक्रिया है

[7/16, 2:47 PM] Vd Shailendra Mehta: 

Well said Sir,but a natural death of a cell and replenished by a new one,can't be said as necrosis...

[7/16, 2:50 PM] Vd Shailendra Mehta:

 जी सर ,,,संयोग leads to  birth...वियोग leads to death...But what is the driving force behind these opposite processes

[7/16, 2:55 PM] Vd Raghuram Y. S, :

 Thanks Guruji🙏💐❤️

[7/16, 2:56 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Biological forces

[7/16, 2:56 PM] Vd Raghuram Y. S, :

 Thanks Guruji💐🙏❤️

Noted the points you hv added sir ✅🙏

[7/16, 2:57 PM] Vd Shailendra Mehta:

 With lots of apologies to you...I m not satisfied...🧎🏻‍♂️🧎🏻‍♂️

[7/16, 2:58 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Sorry , I can't help you

[7/16, 3:13 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

ऐसा क्यो कह रहे हैं ? 

स्नेह तो हमेशा बना रहेगा

[7/16, 3:21 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Chatursneha ki baat kar rahe hain Mehta Ji 🤭

[7/16, 3:21 PM] Prof. Giriraj Sharma:

 *अवतरण  - ब्रह्म बुद्धि,*  

*उपगमन - पादयोर्विष्णु*

 *नियमन - अंहकारो ईश्वर*  *(ईश धातु नियंत्रित कर्ता)*

[7/16, 3:24 PM] Prof. Giriraj Sharma:

 Grosse Example

Osteocyte

Osteoblast

Osteoclast

[7/16, 4:06 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

[7/16, 4:06 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha:

 शारीर विशेषज्ञ मत 👌✅🌹

[7/16, 4:13 PM] Vd Shailendra Mehta:

 गुरुदेव,,,अपनी रत्नों की पिटारी से  आपने एक रत्न निकाल ही दिया,,,इस लेख में antigen is illuminated due to sattv...परन्तु antigen तो हानि/survival के लिए प्रवेश करता है,as a parasite,तो सत्व कैसे हुआ🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/16, 4:17 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

It's not sattva , it's perceived by sattva , it's identified by sattva

[7/16, 4:21 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Identification of specific antigen by sattva and binding of specific antigen on specific site of antibody by Raja is hypothesized here

[7/16, 4:50 PM] Dr. Pawan Madan: 

I think Biomarkers get reduced when the physiology returns to normal.

[7/16, 6:27 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Not like that , antiinflammatory action of dravya reduces acute phase reactants and immunosuppressants/immunomodulatory dravya help in reducing other biomarkers.. normalcy in autoimmune phenomenon is not so easy , if one immune complex is remained may trigger disease

[7/16, 6:54 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

आदरणीय श्री पाण्डेय जी नमस्कार . अल्प सत्त्व ही शुरुवात करता है , फिर बाकी सभी झमेले होते हैं, आटोइम्युन रोगो में मानसिक हेतु का बडा योगदान है

[7/16, 6:56 PM] Dr. Satish Jaimini: 

🙏🏻🙏🏻धन्य कर दिया गुरुजी

[7/16, 6:56 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir: 

Every cell and tissue has its own element of Sattva ( i.e. niyamak- regulator).

[7/16, 6:57 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

जी , विषय समान है , autoimmunity में बहु निदान है ; अल्प सत्त्व,रज, तम,वातादि दोष , रसादि धातुएं , पुरीषादि मल और सहज भावादि

[7/16, 6:58 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Regulatory bodies are sattva dharmi

[7/16, 6:58 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

Dr. Pratibha ji !!

Great description.

Valuable inputs. You concluded very well. 

Thanks.

🙏🏻🌹👌🏻👍🏻👏🏻

[7/16, 6:58 PM] Dr. Satish Jaimini: 

बल की परिभाषा में प्रवर सत्व ही बलवान बनाता है  अवर सत्व निर्बल🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/16, 7:00 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

निश्चित रुप से

[7/16, 7:01 PM] Dr. Satish Jaimini:

 जी गुरुदेव🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/16, 7:01 PM] Vd.Divyesh Desai :

 ब्रह्मा :- वायु, माता, उत्पत्ति

विष्णु :- पित्त, पिता, स्थिति

महेश:- कफ,गुरु, संहार

सर,इस हिसाब से ऑटो इम्यून diseases नेचरल है...

आपकी बात थोड़ी थोड़ी समझ मे आई....जो कुछ होता है, परब्रह्म की मरजी से होता है तो आपकी बात सही और सटीक है...🙏🏻🙏🏻💐💐

[7/16, 7:07 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 Good evening Resp. Katoch Sir !

You used different words and another aspect of coin. Without dhatwagni dushti srotovaishamya is probably not possible.

🙏🏻🌹🌻

[7/16, 7:09 PM] Prof. Giriraj Sharma:

 What about अन्नवह स्रोतस

[7/16, 7:09 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

🙏🏻🌹

[7/16, 7:10 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Srotovaishamya is also possible due to changes in srotas itself as in aneurysm

[7/16, 7:11 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

सही प्रश्न है

[7/16, 7:12 PM] Prof. Giriraj Sharma:

 साथ मे पुरिषवह, मूत्रवह स्रोत भी संशय में है ।

[7/16, 7:14 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

फिर प्राणवह स्रोतस् क्यो नहीं ?

[7/16, 7:14 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 Pranam Maharshi !!

🙏🏻🌹😌

Right Ojha Sir !

I kept my inputs limited to immunosuppressant, for which question was asked.

Aneurysm is also a result of Dhatwagni mandya. Without this how mansa shaithilya developed. Because it has no external cause. It's also nija vikar.

🙏🏻🌹😌

[7/16, 7:16 PM] Prof. Giriraj Sharma: 

उदक भी

[7/16, 7:16 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

The pathogenesis of abdominal aortic aneurysms (AAAs) is unknown. We hypothesize that the autoimmune disease process plays a key role in the development of AAAs. Both cellular and humoral immunity is involved in the pathogenesis of AAAs. Triggers of autoimmunity are multifactorial.

[7/16, 7:17 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Definitely it is other way . There are specific hetus mentioned for Srotodushti. Agni remains within the dhatus but the platform for their action is Srotas.

[7/16, 7:18 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 Modern doesn't know, it means we should also stop to apply our principles....?

🌹😌🌻🙏🏻

[7/16, 7:18 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 धन्योsहम् ।🙏🏻🌹😌

[7/16, 7:19 PM] Prof. Giriraj Sharma: 

प्राण अन्न उदक बाह्य ग्राह्य

रस रक्त मांस मेद शुक्र अंतः

(शुक्र अंतः त्याज्य)

मूत्र पुरीष बाह्य त्याज्य

[7/16, 7:20 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Application of principles must be in direction of disease process

[7/16, 7:20 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 🙏🏻🌹👌🏻👏🏻

[7/16, 7:25 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir: 

Shastra describes different hetus for

 Dosh dusti, Agni dusti, Sroto/Dhatudushti . Disease process for Nija Rogas starts from deranged integrity of Srotas ( Kha Vaigunya) followed by Dosh Vaishamya ( with or without Agni dusti ) leading to Dosh-Dushyasammoorchchna.

[7/16, 7:27 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

An autoimmune disorder occurs when a person's immune system mistakenly attacks their own body.

There are around 80 different autoimmune disorders ranging in severity from mild to disabling, depending on which system of the body is under attack and to what degree.

There is generally no cure, but the symptoms of autoimmune disorders can be managed.

संशय पहली घटना है परंतु संशय उत्पन्न कैसे होता है उसे स्पष्ट किया जाना चाहिए

[7/16, 7:27 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir: 

.Sa iti kartavyatako roguttapadak hetu is important to understand the causation of disease process.

[7/16, 7:30 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 Immunosuppressant  term का प्रयोग भ्रम उत्पन्न करने वाला है । इसे दोष प्रकोप क्यों नहीं कहना चाहिए ?

आयुर्वेद के मूल स्वरूप में immunosuppressant क्यों बलपूर्वक घुसेड़ना चाहिए ?

Immunosuppressant विशुद्ध रूप से विकृतिविषम समवेत से शरीर में कार्यकारी होता है, जो धात्वाग्नि वैषम्य उत्पन्न करता है । कल इसकी चर्चा की गई थी ।

डॉ शैलेन्द्र जी !🙏🏻🌹

[7/16, 7:30 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha:

 रोगोत्पत्ति के प्रमुख कारणों पर चर्चा अपेक्षित है उसके पूर्व immunity and autoimmunity को आयुर्वेद के सिद्धांत पर समझना अपेक्षित है

[7/16, 7:31 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir: 

Mujhe lagata hai  Rog vishesh ke sthan par uss rog ke ghatakon par charcha honi chahiye chikitsa vyavastha nirdharit karane ke liye.

[7/16, 7:32 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha:

 Yes sir ji

[7/16, 7:35 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

जी सर ।

अत्युत्तम ।

आयुर्वेद में immunosuppressant concept को क्यों बलपूर्वक स्थापित करने का प्रयास करना चाहिए, यही मुख्य रूप से मैं आप सभी महान गुरुजनों के ध्यान में लाने की चेष्टा कर रहा हूँ । जब हमारे पास स्टेरॉइड जैसी कोई चीज ही नहीं है तो हमें इसे क्यों नहीं मान लेना चाहिए ?

🙏🏻🌹😌

[7/16, 7:35 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Immunosuppressants term अपने आप में सम्पूर्ण है और कोई संशय उत्पन्न नहीं होता है

[7/16, 7:37 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

यूं फिर immunity, hypertension, etc भी कहां है ?

[7/16, 7:37 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 नमो नमः ।

आप से मैं प्रश्न नहीं पूछूँगा तो किससे पूछूँगा ।

परन्तु यह आयुर्वेद में नहीं है ।

🙏🏻🌹

[7/16, 7:39 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

आयुर्वेद में जो नहीं है परंतु दर्शन और योग शास्त्र में था, वहां से लिया गया

[7/16, 7:39 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha:

 बौद्ध धर्म का भी प्रभाव मिलता है

[7/16, 7:41 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

आधुनिक तंत्रज्ञान को आयुर्वेद में समाहित किजिए

[7/16, 7:41 PM] Vd.Arun Rathi Sir :

 *Digestion And Metabolism at Tissue Level in Ayurveda*

 i.e. *धातु अग्नि पाक परम्परा*

                                                                        *विविधम शितं पितं लीठं खादितम जन्तोर्हितमन्तराग्निसन्धुक्षितबलेन, यथा स्वेमोष्मणा सम्यग् विपच्यमानं कालवदनवस्थित सर्वधातुपाकमनुपहत, सर्वधातुऊष्मारुत स्त्रोतः केवलं शरीरम्उपचयबलवर्णसुखायुषायोजति, शरीरधातुनउर्ज्यतिच ।                                                                                                                       धातवो हि धात्वाहार  प्रकृतिम अनुवर्तन्ते*।। च.सू. 28/3.

                                

*धातुअग्नि व्यापार , Four factors are responsible, these are*

1). अन्न रस .                                                                                          2). व्यान वायु.                                                          

3). धातुवह स्त्रोतस .                                 

4). धातुअग्नि .                                                          

*If these above four factors are in प्राकृतावस्था then and only then सम्यक पोषण and वर्धन of these धातू,  उपधातु, धातुमल takes place.*

[7/16, 7:42 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha:

 Rightly said.. ✅👌💐☺️

[7/16, 7:46 PM] Vd.Arun Rathi Sir :

 *नमस्कार भाऊसाहेब*

🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

*The basic concept of Immune System is to distinguish between ""Self from Non Self"".*

*जब सजातीय तत्वों का विजातीय तत्वों से विभेद करना होगा तब मनोवहस्त्रोत का कार्य मुख्य होगा*

🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/16, 7:48 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 गुरुदेव !

व्याधिक्षमत्व आचार्य चरक ने स्पष्ट रूप से बताया है ।

हम immunosuppressant को स्थापित करने के लिए अपने सिद्धांतों की तोड़ मरोड़ कर व्याख्या कर रहे हैं ।

Hypertension रोगी के शरीर में होने वाली एक विकृति है जिसमें स्रोत्तोमय पुरुष के विभिन्न घटक निर्मित करते हैं ।

Immunosuppressant आधुनिक शास्त्र के औषधि का एक वर्ग है और उसकी कार्मुकता के आधार पर हम अपने ओषधियों के कर्मो को परिभाषित करने का प्रयास कर रहे हैं ? जो सम्भव ही नहीं है । जो सम्भव है उस पर विचार करने का निवेदन मैंने किया है जिसका चिंतन आवश्यक है ।

आप जैसे फलदार वृक्ष को हिलाकर ही कुछ मीठे फल प्राप्त हो सकते हैं ।

Resp. Ojha Sir !

🙂🤗

🙏🏻🌹

[7/16, 8:03 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Question is - Whether drug induced  reduction of Vyadhikshamtva (of Ayurveda) is immunosuppressant action or else ?

[7/16, 8:07 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

आचार्य सुरेन्द्र जी, व्याधि क्षमत्व को सूत्र रुप में लिखा गया है, उसका उपबृंहण अपेक्षित है, फिर हमें immunity, autoimmunity, immunosuppressants, immunostimulants, immunomodulators, and various hormones पर चर्चा करनी पडेगी तभी एक सर्व मान्य सिद्धांत प्रस्थापित किया जा सकेगा, पहली बार जब Takayasu's aortitis के रुग्ण पर कार्य किया तो यही ज्ञान काम में आया

[7/16, 8:09 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Yes sir, answer is yes, it's immunosuppressants and/or immunomodulators

[7/16, 8:11 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 Then my question is which drug ?

It's only possible with modern drugs not with Ayurved drugs.

🙏🏻🌹

[7/16, 8:15 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 आपकी सभी बातें सिर माथे परंतु

Immunosuppressant की बात गले नहीं उतर रही है ।

क्षमा प्रार्थी हूँ मुनिवर !

🙏🏻🌹😌😞

[7/16, 8:24 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

कटु और तिक्त रस का प्रयोग आमवात में अर्थात् आम पर कार्य किया गया, लंघन स्वेदन दीपन से भी आमपाचन अभिष्ट, इसके बाद स्नेहयुक्त विरेचन बस्ती, बस्ति में क्षार, सैंधवादि, पंचकोल शृत उदक एवं आहार सेवन, फिर भी व्याधि याप्य कोटि की, यही इस व्याधि का स्वभाव है

[7/16, 8:25 PM] Vd.V.B.Pandey : 

मनोवह स्रोतस पर प्रभावी योग मेरी समझ से लाभदायक सिद्ध होंगे।

[7/16, 8:28 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

शतावरी मेध्य, हृद्य, बल्य, मूत्रल, अग्नि उत्तेजक भाव युक्त है, और व्याधि क्षमत्व पर भी कार्यशील

[7/16, 8:30 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

🙏🏻🌹👌🏻👍🏻

धात्वाग्नि वैषम्य पर कोई वक्तव्य नहीं आचार्य ।

[7/16, 8:30 PM] Vd. Atul J. Kale: 

क्षमापार्थी 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

आयुर्वेद अौर आधुनिक शास्रका मिलन बहोत सारी शंकाओंको उपस्थित करता है। सिद्धांत भिन्न होनेके कारण इनका मेल द्राविडी प्राणायाम स्वरूप प्रतित होता है। बुधानां बुद्धीवृद्धयार्थ ठिक है किंतु अल्प बुद्धीओंके लिए व्यवहार कठीण हो सकता है।

[7/16, 8:32 PM] Dr.Rajeshwar Chopde:

 Sir, I treated many cases of Aamvat with Rasnsaptak kashay+ Shunthisiddha sneha 20-30 ml , for a year with appropriate Guggul preparation, for a year, then there's no relapse, patience are intemitantly in touch with me

[7/16, 8:33 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 निश्चयात्मक विवरण की अपेक्षा आचार्य जी ।

🙏🏻🌹😌

[7/16, 8:44 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

जी, मान्य है, ऐसा ही मेरे रुग्णो में भी होता है, परंतु थोडा सा अपथ्य सेवन, अति शीत काल में थोडे से लक्षण उत्पत्ति यह स्पष्ट करती है की व्याधि लीनावस्था में है

[7/16, 8:48 PM] Vaidya Vivek Sawant :

 लंघन स्वेदन तिक्त दिपनानि कटू नि च

विरेचन स्नेह पान बस्तायशच्च आमामारुते.........

रुक्ष स्वेदो विधाताव्य........

[7/16, 8:48 PM] Vaidya Vivek Sawant :

 अामवात चिकित्सा सुत्र..

[7/16, 8:53 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

जी , धन्यवाद भाई सावंत

[7/16, 8:56 PM] Vd Mayur Kulkarni:

 निवृत्तोडपि पुनः व्याधि : स्वल्पेन आयाति हेतुना । क्षीणे मार्गीकृते देहे शेषः सूक्ष्म इवानल: चचि ३० / 328 . । think for अपुनर्भवत्व रसायन चिकित्सा will be important still vatavyadhi is difficult to cure completely therefore mentioned in maharogas. वातव्याधि. असाध्योडयं देवयोगात् प्रशाम्यति । अनुमानेन कुर्वन्ति वैद्यकम् न तु प्रति ज्ञया ।

[7/16, 8:59 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

अपुनर्भवत्व रसायन प्रयोग के पूर्व संशोधन कर्म और संसर्जन कर्मो का सम्यक प्रयोग अपेक्षित है

[7/16, 9:13 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

भल्लातक रसायन का सम्यक् प्रयोग कारगर हो सकता है , प्रश्न यह है कि सम्यक् प्रयोग सम्भव है क्या ?

[7/16, 9:13 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

रुग्ण को जल्दी है

[7/16, 9:18 PM] Vd. Atul J. Kale: 

🌹🌹🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

हर कोषामें स्थित अग्नि उस कोषाका परिणमनात्मक देह व्यापार अौर वायु प्राणानुवर्तन के लिए आवश्यक है ऎसे प्रतीत होता है। हर कोषांमें स्थित अग्निविशेष तत धातुओंका अग्निविशेष कह सकते है। अग्नि रज एवं तेज का संमिलित स्वरूप होनेसे वायूला चलत्व, प्रेरकत्व कोषाओंमें स्थित है ही। इसी चलत्व एवं प्रेरकत्व एवं अग्निका ह्रास (कारणवश)...... धातुस्थ आमत्वको वृद्ध करके धातुके प्राकृत कार्यका भी नाश कर देते है। शनै: शनै: आमत्वका चिरकाल बने रहना कोषस्थ अग्निवायुका नाश कर देता है। अग्निवायु धातुओंके चेतनत्वका मूल आधार प्रतीत होता है। जीवनीय शक्तीका धारकत्व अग्निवायुके बिना संभव नहीं।

रजोबहुल वायु:

रज-तेज बहुल अग्नि।

किंतु चलत्व की भी एक विवक्षित प्राकृत दिशा होती ही है।

प्राकृत स्रोतोंमें प्राकृत आवेगसे प्रवेश.

चलत्वका सिद्धांत

दिशा, काल, प्रेरकत्व, शीघ्रत्व से प्रेरीत है।

कोषाओंमेंभी, धातुओंमें भी वायु एवं अग्निके प्राकृत कर्मके लिए अप्रतिघात आवश्यक है ही। किंतु किसी कारणवश अग्निवायुके दूषित होनेके कारण अवकाशकी स्थिती बदल सकती है।

      अपने सजातीय धातुओंकी पहचान, उनसे संलग्न होकर शरीरहितोपकारी कार्य करना ये दोषोंके एक दुसरेके विरूद्ध गुण होनेके उपरान्तभी सहायक स्वरुपमें नियंत्रण (inhibition) एवं उत्तेजन (stimulation)  स्वरुप कार्य प्रेरीत करते है।

   सभी भाव पंगू है,

वायूस्थ वायू 

एवं 

अग्निस्थ वायू 

दिशा, काल सापेक्ष उत्तेजक एवं प्रेरक है। 

अग्निस्थ वायु अतिलघुत्वके कारण उर्ध्वप्रेरीत है 

तो 

वायुस्थ वायु सभी दिशाओंमें गमनकारक है। 

अपनेही सजातीय कोषाओंको न पहचानना अग्नि एवं वायुके प्राकृत कर्मका वैषम्य प्रतीत होता है। 

 ये आमस्वरुप, आवरणस्वरुप, दोषप्रकोपस्वरुप, दोषक्षयस्वरुप ऎसा कितने भी प्रकारका मान ही सकते है ना।

[7/16, 9:26 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

अति सुंदर व्याख्या.

अव्याहत गति का बने रहना अभिष्ट है. सत्त्व के प्रकाशक गुण का भी अपना अलग महत्त्व है , व्याधि क्षमत्व को प्राकृतस्थ रखने में शारीरिक क्रियाओ और मानसिक आरोग्य का सम्यक् रहना भी अभिष्ट है , हार्मोन्स भी प्राकृतिक अवस्था में रहने चाहिए , बहुत सी बातें है सभी को एक साथ समझना और समझाना चाहिए..

[7/16, 10:02 PM] Prof. Giriraj Sharma:

 आचार्य बहुत सटीक विवेचन किया है आपने,,,

सत्वरजो बहुला अग्नि महाभूत   होता है 

रज तेज बहुल अग्नि सिद्धान्त समझ नही आ रहा परन्तु 

🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🌹🌹🌹🙏🏼

[7/16, 10:07 PM] Vd. Atul J. Kale:

 Yes sir सत्व प्रकाशक होनेसे तेजभूत माना है।

[7/16, 10:29 PM] Prof. Giriraj Sharma:

 फिर आकाश भूत का क्या होगा ।

[7/16, 10:35 PM] Vd. Atul J. Kale:

 आचार्यजी आपके मतसे केवल आकाशही मानेंगे तो फिर तेज महाभूत का क्या होगा? भिन्न, भिन्न जगह संज्ञाओंको भिन्न भिन्न समझनाही पडेगा ना?

[7/16, 10:36 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

सत्त्व में तेज और तेज में सत्त्व‌..

[7/16, 10:37 PM] Prof. Giriraj Sharma:

 सिद्धान्तत तो ऐसा होता नही है ।

बाकी आप भी आप्त ही है

[7/16, 10:38 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

आप और हम सभी आप्त है .. 🙏🙏

[7/16, 10:44 PM] Prof. Giriraj Sharma: 

*तत्र सत्त्वंनिर्मलत्वात्प्रकाशकमनामयम्‌ ।*

*सुखसङ्‍गेन बध्नाति ज्ञानसङ्‍गेन चानघ ॥*

भावार्थ : हे निष्पाप! उन तीनों गुणों में सत्त्वगुण तो *निर्मल होने के कारण प्रकाश करने वाला* और विकार रहित है, वह सुख के सम्बन्ध से और ज्ञान के सम्बन्ध से अर्थात उसके अभिमान से बाँधता है॥6॥

रजो रागात्मकं विद्धि तृष्णासङ्‍गसमुद्भवम्‌ ।

तन्निबध्नाति कौन्तेय कर्मसङ्‍गेन देहिनम्‌ ॥

भावार्थ : हे अर्जुन! रागरूप रजोगुण को कामना और आसक्ति से उत्पन्न जान। वह इस जीवात्मा को कर्मों और उनके फल के सम्बन्ध में बाँधता है॥7॥

तमस्त्वज्ञानजं विद्धि मोहनं सर्वदेहिनाम्‌ ।

प्रमादालस्यनिद्राभिस्तन्निबध्नाति भारत ॥

🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🌹🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼

[7/16, 10:44 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

रक्तपित्त में भल्लातक का प्रयोग नहीं है फिर भी पित्तज और रक्त विकारों में कुछ वैद्य करते है और कतिपय ग्रंथ़ में भी वर्णित है.. सिद्धांत को तोड मरोड कर प्रस्तुत किया जा रहा है

[7/17, 12:30 AM] Dr.Rajeshwar Chopde:

 Sattva gun prakashk hai aur Tej mahabhut prakashak hai... Sattva gun ke uttakarsh ke liye Tej mahabhut ka satmikaran karana padata hai

[7/17, 12:33 AM] Dr.Rajeshwar Chopde:

 Boss, Siddhanton par hame adig rahena hai

[7/17, 6:33 AM] Dr. Pawan Madan: 

सुप्रभात अतुल जी

बहुत बढिया विवेचन।

हर कोशिका मे पंच महाभूत उपस्तिथि।

इस चलत्व व प्रेरकत्व के ह्रास के हेतुओं के बारे में क्या विचार किया जा सकता है, क्युंकि इन कर्मों के क्षय से तद गत अग्नि व वायू का ह्रास या इन के कर्मों का ह्रास होने लगता है जो के अंतत धातुगत आम निर्माण की स्तिथि तक पहुंचाता है?

दिशा व काल ही सब के उत्तेजक व प्रेरक हैं, इस को शायद थोडा सा और विस्तार स्व समझना होगा।

🙏🙏

[7/17, 7:46 AM] Vd. Atul J. Kale:

 सुप्रभात मदानजी. 

चलत्व एवं प्रेरकत्व ये वायु एवं अग्निकेही गुण है। इनकी वृद्धी, समत्व एवं क्षय मान सकते है। समत्वमें दिशा, काल (direction, time) प्राकृत रहेगा। .......normal stimulation. 

     किंतु एक प्रेरकत्व अग्निके साथ है अौर एक वायुके साथ। -परिणमनात्मक प्रेरकत्व (chemical irreversible -reactions)

Physical reversible reactions. 

तो इस प्रेरकत्व को एवं चलत्व को आवरीत या क्षयीत करनेके लिए ततविरुद्ध आहारविहार हेतूस्वरुप होगा। 

गुरु, मंद, शीत, स्थिर गुणोंको बढानेवाला आहारविहार. 

सजातीय धातुओंको पहचानना.

कोषाएॅ पांचभौतिक, त्रिगुणात्मक, अग्नि-वायुसे धारण

 प्राणत्व धारण

योग्य ग्रहण (perception)

उनमें भी जब अतत्वाभिनिवेश 

Autoimmune reactions. 😄 

दिशा काल उत्तेजक एवं प्रेरक नहीं किंतु उत्तेजकता एवं प्रेरकता दिशा-काल सापेक्ष है।

[7/17, 9:16 AM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Aapt ka vyapt hona hi abheesht hai.

[7/17, 9:28 AM] Prof. Giriraj Sharma: 

🌹🙏🏼🌹🙏🏼🌹🙏🏼

सादर प्रणाम 

पाठान्तर एवं मतमतान्तर ही श्रेष्ठ विमर्श है ।

मत भिन्नता होना ही शोध की प्रथम सीढ़ी है ।

[7/17, 9:37 AM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir: 

Shodh ka nahin shodh samasya ka pratham sopan hai mat-vaibhinya

[7/17, 9:41 AM] Prof. Giriraj Sharma:

 🌹🙏🏼🌹👌🏻

 

[7/17, 9:52 AM] Prof. Giriraj Sharma: 

मत भिन्नता किसी सिद्धान्त या संदर्भ के साथ हो तो उपयुक्त है शोध परक है 

परन्तु अगर सिर्फ स्वमत है तो शोध समस्या है ।

[7/17, 9:56 AM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

My reply to hon'ble Raghu Sir !

 *Ayurveda Understanding of Immunosuppression*

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

*Very good discussion about immunosupression and autoimmune disorders by gurujans and stalwarts of the group* 🙏🙏💐👌❤

*I just want to add my perspective for this discussion* 👇👇

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

The concept of autoimmunity and autoimmune disorders is *not new* for Ayurveda.

*Doesn’t the dosha concept itself indicate the inborne preparedness of autoimmunity?*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*(My humble submission- No ! Because such imbalance is as per physiological principales. This is the greatness of Ayurved that it has recognized such minute changed in the body in day to day life. Autoimmune like situation is always reaction originated human body response in presence of Aam, Gar/dushi visha, or sometimes due to leen dosha or dhatudushti etc. We can't generalised A.I. concept too much by putting or applying in each pathological phenomenon. Are we not treating Auto immune disorders as per our principales successfully ?)*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

👉 The term dosha itself suggests *something which contaminates the body components*. 

👉 The balanced doshas are helpful in easy and effortless running of the body functions. 

But the *same doshas tend to invade the body components when they get vitiated* .

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*(Respected Sir ! It is not always 'invading' phenomenon as I understand. It is not fare to generalized all types of pathologies as 'invading', ignoring the various other pathological concepts.)*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

👉 So, as per Ayurveda, *_the human body is composed of the same components which are helpful as well as destructive_* When the doshas attack the body’s defenses i.e. the tissues and organs and srotases, they cause many diseases.

👉 Having said this, *all Nija Rogas cannot be autoimmune disorders* Only those diseases in which the tissues and srotas and ojas are destroyed to the point of no-return or suggesting bad prognosis due to they being afflicted by the vitiated doshas can be considered as autoimmune.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*(Right Sir ! in presence of Aam, Gar/dushi visha, or sometimes due to leen dosha or dhatudushti etc.)* 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

👉 *The doshas invading the components of its own system can be seen as the ‘autoimmune processes* 

👉 We also need to see that the same doshas and dushyas have the *ashraya ashrayi sambandha* . So the *ashrayi is destroying the ashraya in spite of belonging to the same system*

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

The *secret of understanding which diseases turn into autoimmune disorders lay in the concept of sadhyasadhyata mentioned in the diseases*  Asadhya and Yapya diseases can be considered as autoimmune disorders so as some krichchrasadhya diseases.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*(Respected Sir ! It is very difficult to accept it as principal. There certain conditions mentioned in Ayurved like 'आमविष: असाध्यानाम्', but it is not always applicable as I per my understanding.)*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

Therefore the *doshas which have a natural tendency to invade and the dhatus which have a tendency to resist the invasion – both coexist in the same body without afflicting each other* 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*(Many times english translation is unable to express genuine meaning of the basic concept or some time it explains in limited manner.)*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*Dosha-dushya sammurchana in which the disturbed doshas invade its own system i.e. weakened and susceptible tissues indicate the onset of autoimmune disorders* 

The earlier they are identified, the earlier they can be aborted. 

This also indicates the earliest and oldest explanation of autoimmunity.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*(Right Sir.)*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

*Rogastu Dosha Vaishamyam – Dosha Samyam Arogata – is a golden reference to tell that we live with the friends which can turn foes at anytime*

*Doshas are masked missiles. Their intelligence is to attack but this intelligence is masked. When we change the programming and decode them, their masked intelligence gets exposed and they attack the system in which they are in. Otherwise they are programmed to protect our system*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*(Very beautiful wordings used.*😊🙏🏻

*We are not to forget that they are the basic constituents of the body where they get stored in the form of Dhatus and become active as Doshas whenever required in the body like in physiological as well as pathological conditions. Similarly they get in the form of 'Malas/metabolic waste and get excreted from the body, when body unable to expel them out, then Auto immune phenomenon takes place only.)*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*Prakritastu Balam Shleshma, vikruto malam uchyate* too speaks about the same.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*(Yes Sir ! I tried to mention the same in above phrase.)*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

We also get clues from *Visarga Adana Vikshepa* functions of doshas. 

*_Protective wind, fire and water become all destroying when they get aggravated and destroy the same universe which they create and guard by taking the form of tornadoes, volcanoes and tsunamis respectively_* Same is the case with doshas.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*(Yes Sir ! It's always as per 'कार्य-कारण वाद'.)*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So, *when the doshas go berserk, not only our body components are destroyed but our immunity is compromised. In other sense, the body’s immunity powers are becoming autoimmune*  

*Samadosha Samagnischa Samadhatu Malakriayah, Prasanna Atma Indriya Manasascha Swastha Iti Abhidhiyate*

The definition of comprehensive health in Ayurveda suggests the *balance between all its components* , individual and related balance. Imbalance leads to diseases

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

*What is the remedy?*

Since the doshas are hyperactive, they are causing the diseases. Therefore their *hyperactivity should be suppressed*

👉 *_Vasti, Virechana and Vamana are the best remedies for expelling the hyperactive doshas. Shodhana / Panchakarma measures are the best immunosuppressive therapies from Ayurveda perspective_*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*(If we will say panchakarma as immunosuppressive procedure then modern definition of it will not be justified. Panchakarma expels the basic Root cause of Autoimmunity that aggravated the immune response. So we can say it is indirectly immunosuppressive after the removing the basic cause.)*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

👉 *_Rasayanas are said to be given after Shodhana as a mandatory rule. Rasayanas can be considered as immune modulators_*

*So in hyperactivity of doshas, the shodhana prakriyas should be done first. This is immunosupression*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*(Indirectly only...🙏🏻😌...)*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Then we can find that the body components will come to a state of balance. Later we can *enhance the immunity of the tissues by administration of Rasayanas. This is immunomodulation*

*Shamana* can be considered if there are few symptom recurrences following ideal treatment, symptoms which recur in small scales and do not cause much disturbance.

*Ayurveda immunotherapy i.e. immunosupression or modulation or combination of both consists of shodhana and rasayana therapies as first hand and best options*

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

*Types of immunosuppression*

Modern science tells that *immunosuppression may cause immunodeficiency* 

Therefore *samyak shuddhi lakshanas should be looked for* Atishuddhi or hina shuddhi may once again play with our immunity.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*(Sorry Sir 🙏🏻! I am not agree with this.)*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*_Samyak shuddhi plus Rasayana done with proper logic and effective administration can be seen as apunarbhava chikitsa_*

*(This is perfect.)*

Modern science speaks about *deliberate and non-deliberate types of immunosupression*

👉 *Shodhana, shamana, types of langhana, rasayana, etc can be viewed as examples of deliberate immunosupression* 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*(if we try to fit above measures in frame of immunosuppressant then a lot of questions will be there. कफपित्ते द्रवे धातू सहते लंघनं बहु । दोषक्षये ऊर्ध्वमपि वात न सहते क्षणम् ।। (भा प्र), how  langhan can be immunosuppressive ? It gives opportunity to body heal itself by digesting the Aam-dosha mainly which is responsible for autoimmune response.)*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

wherein we are trying to suppress the hyperactive components of immune system and rejuvenate the tissues enhancing their defense mechanism and also trying to see that there are no recurrences.

👉 *Non-deliberate immunosupression may occur due to immune-deficiency and endogenous factors leading to lowering of immunity and weakening immune system* 

Ayurveda understanding leads us to consider one or more of the below mentioned concepts –

✔ decrease of vyadhi kshamatva

✔ kapha kshaya

✔ vata-pitta vriddhi

✔ imbalance and various stages of 

✔ ojus imbalance

✔ agni vaishamya

✔ srotodushti

✔ mala sanchaya

✔formation and circulation of ama, sama doshas etc

This type of immunosupression may lead to the *causation of many disorders or provide a platform wherein increased susceptibility to the diseases can be seen* 

These conditions may be *treated on the principles of treating these conditions as mentioned in classics or on the basis of yukti*

*Many Herbs, herbo-mineral compounds and parts of dietetic regimen can play immune-supressive or modulation role individually or in combination to the therapies as part of shamana and pathya kalpas.*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

*(My request to you and all experts of the subject in context to immunosuppressive agent that please review the concept. I have tried my level best to clarify the concept of immunosuppressant. It's sometimes unnecessary to interpret ayurved in modern specific frame.)*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am not touching on this point. Ayurveda emphasis on comprehensive approach including Nidana Parivarjana*

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

*My Small Understanding of Ayurveda Immunosupression…* 🙏💐

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

*_Dr Raghuram_* 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*(Namaste Sir ! Thank you very much for your great description. As an honest scholar, I have expressed my views. Requesting you to give required guidance of something is unnecessary or outlined. I also request to you, ojha Sir, katoch Sir, dr. Atul and all expert to draw a conclusion for this discussion please.)*

*(Prof. Surendra A. Soni)*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[7/17, 10:11 AM] Vd Shailendra Mehta: 

🙏🏻🙏🏻Very well taken...And delivered back Soni Sir👌🏻👌🏻Addressing to this complex Topic of Autoimmunevaad is itself a Great challange...And it's an honour for us to witness your successful Act of Valour....🧎🏻‍♂️🧎🏻‍♂️💐💐

[7/17, 3:43 PM] Dr. Pawan Madan: 

Thanks Atul ji.

In a way these said qualities arw of the Vaayu and Agni itself and they will be effected by their respective guna or by sadharmiya dravyas.

Thanks.

[7/17, 3:59 PM] Dr. Pawan Madan: 

Rightly pointed out Soni ji.

The imbalance of doshas present in the body is the physiological phenemenon. What we observe or get in vikriti is the deviation from that state.

..Dosha are the factors which do not contaminate the body tissues but they are the integral part of the body tissues.

...Autoimmune process starts around the process of attacking any Vijaatiya substance, in that process doshas are in action and due to molecular mimikary type of processes the auto immunity starts.

....Rather than invade....we can use the word hyper reactivity perhaps in a more suitable way.

Thanks Raghu Ji for giving a brain storming session.

[7/17, 4:03 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

I hope you are satisfied now with discussion initiated by your question.

Dr. Shailendra !

[7/17, 5:12 PM] Vd Shailendra Mehta:

 🙏🏻🙏🏻आप सर्व गुरुजनों के प्रभाव से ही हम शिष्यों के प्रश्न उत्पन्न होते हैं सर,,,मेधाग्नि दिप्ती गुरुजन की ही अनुकम्पा है🧎🏻‍♂️🧎🏻‍♂️🌷🌷

[7/17, 6:02 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Dr pawan, hyperactive/overactive immune system invade/destroy/attack host cell/target cell..

[7/17, 6:06 PM] Dr. Pawan Madan:

 Absolutely sir.

Perfect.

But using invade word....sometimes senses like something external is coming from outside. Just to clear the meaning I used hyperactive, which can originate from the same place even.

🙏💐🙏

[7/17, 6:06 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Environmental factors + genetic factors ➡️ autoantibodies ➡️ self to non self reaction due to molecular mimicry ➡️ immune cells attack/invade/destroy➡️ Target cells ➡️ autoimmune disease

[7/17, 6:09 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Before invading/destroying/attacking target cell , immune cells become hyperactive/overactive

[7/17, 6:10 PM] Dr. Pawan Madan: 

Ji...🙏🙏

[7/17, 6:25 PM] Vd. Atul J. Kale: 

Vitiated Visham Vayu??

[7/17, 6:26 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Yes ,

[7/17, 6:34 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

स्थूलाणु स्रोतसां भेत्ता is physiological action of vaata, however,  hyperactive vaata destroy the host cell with the help of pitta, sequential inflammatory process Play role in destruction of host cell

[7/17, 7:00 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 'Atikraman' or Karmadhikya/Karm vriddhi may be the apt Hindi term.

[7/17, 7:01 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

नमो नमः गुरुवर्य ।

My humble submission is there that there is a reason as you also mentioned. That is as per karya-karan-vaad.

🙏🏻🌹

[7/17, 7:03 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha:

 Master stroke

[7/17, 7:05 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Teesatacharya  in Tatva Deepika has listed Kshobh as one of the vaat prakopak hetus. Accordingly, Kshobh in cells leads to their disturbed bilogical integrity.

[7/17, 7:08 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 I consider Kshobh in cells/tissues as the root cause of carcinogenesis and autoimmunity.

[7/17, 7:09 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

What is about oxidative stress ?

[7/17, 7:10 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir: 

This Kshobh may be due to physical reaction to presence of certain reactants or biological /biochemical in nature.

[7/17, 7:11 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Psychological also

[7/17, 7:12 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Oxidative stress is the outcome of biological/biochemical derangement.

[7/17, 7:13 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir: 

and degeneration too.

[7/17, 7:15 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Degeneration leads to स्रोतांसि रिक्तानि leading to vaata prakopa results in fibroblasts activity and in turn fibrosis

[7/17, 7:19 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha:

 Myocardial infarction is product of over active vaata due to myocardial necrosis caused by sudden blockage of coronary artery ➡️ आवरण➡️ स्थानिक ‌धातु क्षय ➡️ वात प्रकोप ➡️ हृच्छूल ➡️ वातज हृदय रोग

[7/17, 7:21 PM] Vd.Divyesh Desai :

 गुरुजनो, एक संभाषा मे Autoimmune डिसऑर्डर के बारे में वक्ता ने उदाहरण के तौर पर बताया था कि 

हम अपने घर के रक्षण के लिए कुत्ता पालते हैं, वही कुत्ता जब चोर या दुश्मन को काटने के बजाय मालिक को ही काटता है तो ये तो प्रज्ञापराध है तो....

ऑटो इम्यून सिस्टम में गड़बड़ी रुग्ण के शरीर या मन मे आती है, causative factors में गड़बड़ी आती है या दोनोमे.....ओर दोषोका प्रभाव, स्त्रोतसो का प्रभाव, अग्नि का प्रभाव के साथ साथ मन का ,विषाद का क्या महत्व है? केवल विषाद कम होने से भी बिना दवाओ के भी लक्षणो में कमी आती है, ऐसा देखने को मिला है ,तो आप सब गुरुजनो से विनंती है कि ये सब फैक्टर्स को ध्यान में रखते हुए चिकित्सा सिद्धांत बनाया जाए कि हम सब शिष्यों को भी ऐसे रुग्णों को ठीक करने में कोई दिक्कत न आए।।

🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/17, 7:30 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

[7/17, 8:06 PM] Vd. Atul J. Kale: 

👏🏻👏🏻🌹🌹🌹🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/17, 8:15 PM] Vd. Atul J. Kale: 

वायु: तन्त्र यन्त्रधर:

तन्त्र:- biological technology of living:- physiology:- दोषधातुमलक्रियाविज्ञान

यन्त्र:- anatomical structure of living.

[7/17, 9:17 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 👍

[7/17, 9:17 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

1.

व्यायामादूष्मणस्तैक्ष्ण्याद्धितस्यानवचारणात् ।

को१ष्ठाच्छाखा मला यान्ति द्रुतत्वान्मारुतस्य च ॥३१॥

तत्रस्थाश्च विलम्बन्ते कदाचिन्न समीरिताः ।

नादेशकाले कुप्यन्ति भूयो हेतुप्रतीक्षिणः ॥३२॥

2.

वृद्ध्या विष्यन्दनात् पाकात् स्रोतोमुखविशोधनात् ।

शाखा मुक्त्वा मलाः कोष्ठं यान्ति वायोश्च निग्रहात् ॥३३

च सू 28

3.

वृद्धिर्हि द्वेधा चयप्रकोपभेदेन| तत्रोष्णगुणोपहिता रूक्षादयो वायोः सञ्चयमापादयन्ति| शीतगुणोपहिताः प्रकोपमुष्णगोणोपहिताः स्निग्धादयः प्रशमम्| शीतगुणोप हितास्तीक्ष्णादयः पित्तस्य चयमुष्णगुणोपहिताः कोपं शीतगुणोपहिता मन्दादयः प्रशमम्| शीतगुणोपहिताः स्निग्धादयः कफस्य चयमुष्णगुणोपहिताः कोपं तथा तु रूक्षादयः प्रशमम्||१२||

अ सं सू 20/12

*डॉ दिव्येश जी ।*

*उक्त सिद्धांत न केवल Auto immune व्याधियों के लिए प्रयोज्य है अपितु सभी व्यक्तियों में उपयोगी है । आप आमवात और इसका चिकित्सा सूत्र समझ लीजिए तो उक्त सिद्धांतों को भी समझ सकते हैं ।*

*आदरणीय सुभाष सर द्वारा आमवात की सफल चिकित्सा ब्लॉग पर उपलब्ध है और प्रस्तुति भी आपके सामने हुई थी ।*

🙏🏻🌹

[7/17, 9:43 PM] Vd.Divyesh Desai : 

सर, जैसे बारबार संहिता ओर आप्तजनो की नोट्स बार बार पढ़ने से हर वक्त कुछ न कुछ और नए ज्ञान की प्राप्ति होती है तो स्त्रोतसो के संदर्भ में/ विषाद के संदर्भ में /  ऑटो इम्युनिटी डिसऑर्डर के बारे में सवाल पूछेंगे तो कुछ तो hidden जानकारी मिलेगी ही, तो सरजी सवाल पूछना तो ज़ायज़ है ही, आप ने भी तो सरजी आदरणीय गुरुजनो को प्रश्नों किया तो मेरे जैसे प्राइवेट प्रैक्टिसनर को MD के थीसिस से भी कई अधिक जानकारी प्राप्त हुई, इस लिए आप सबका खूब खूब धन्यवाद🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

जय आयुर्वेद, जय धन्वंतरि।।

[7/17, 9:48 PM] Vd Shailendra Mehta:

 बिल्कुल सही लिखा,सर🌷🌷

[7/17, 9:49 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 👍 Samhitas are Gurunaam Guru.

[7/17, 10:16 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

प्रश्न करना बिल्कुल जायज है आचार्य जी । सदैव स्वागत योग्य है । आप अन्यथा न ग्रहण करें ।

🙏🏻

[7/17, 10:20 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 मेरा संकेत इस ओर था कि सैद्धांतिक रूप से on paper चिकित्सा सिद्धांत 'पुरुषं पुरुषं वीक्ष्य' सिद्धांत को कमजोर करता है । बस इतना ही ।

🙏🏻

[7/17, 10:23 PM] Vd.Divyesh Desai : 

🙏🏾🙏🏾 समान रूपसे सबका हित देखने और दिखाने वाले ग्रंथ को ही संहिता कहते है, इस लिए ये ग्रंथ गुरूणाम गुरु है, गुरुजी।।🙏🏾🙏🏾

[7/17, 10:30 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Even Gurus have to refer to Samhitas (Aadya resource of knowledge), so it is appropriate to consider them 'Gurunaam Guru'

[7/18, 3:55 PM] Vd Raghuram Y. S:

 *Respected dear Soni sir*

*Thanks for your mixed bag of comments, compliments and suggestions* 🙏🙏🙏💐❤

*Noted. But I hv edited the portions having your comments and objections and hv remedies to the best of my ability sir* 

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

*Doesn’t the dosha concept itself indicate the inborne preparedness of autoimmunity?*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*(My humble submission- No ! Because such imbalance is as per physiological principales. This is the greatness of Ayurved that it has recognized such minute changed in the body in day to day life. Autoimmune like situation is always reaction originated human body response in presence of Aam, Gar/dushi visha, or sometimes due to leen dosha or dhatudushti etc. We can't generalised A.I. concept too much by putting or applying in each pathological phenomenon. Are we not treating Auto immune disorders as per our principales successfully ?)*

👇👇👇👇👇👇👇

✔ *I too haven't generalized it sir. I have mentioned in the later context that all Nija rogas shall not be considered. Sadhyasadhyata description helps. Can't the doshas themselves cause autoimmune conditions?*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

👉 The term dosha itself suggests *something which contaminates the body components*. 

👉 The balanced doshas are helpful in easy and effortless running of the body functions. 

But the *same doshas tend to invade the body components when they get vitiated* .

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*(Respected Sir ! It is not always 'invading' phenomenon as I understand. It is not fare to generalized all types of pathologies as 'invading', ignoring the various other pathological concepts.)*

👇👇👇👇👇👇👇

✔ *Again I have not generalized it dear sir. I am used to write these words in my articles. It becomes easy for readers to understand the magnitude of what has been explained in Ayurveda. I accept, there are other pathological concepts*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

The *secret of understanding which diseases turn into autoimmune disorders lay in the concept of sadhyasadhyata mentioned in the diseases*  Asadhya and Yapya diseases can be considered as autoimmune disorders so as some krichchrasadhya diseases.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*(Respected Sir ! It is very difficult to accept it as principal. There certain conditions mentioned in Ayurved like 'आमविष: असाध्यानाम्', but it is not always applicable as I per my understanding.)*

👇👇👇👇👇👇👇

✔ *Again, respected sir, no generalization in my post. It's my perspective and is open for discussion. THANKS for your inputs sir. Noted.*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

Therefore the *doshas which have a natural tendency to invade and the dhatus which have a tendency to resist the invasion – both coexist in the same body without afflicting each other* 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*(Many times english translation is unable to express genuine meaning of the basic concept or some time it explains in limited manner.)*

👇👇👇👇👇👇👇

✔ *Right sir. Perhaps... Translation fails, interpretations might not as a rule.*

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

*Rogastu Dosha Vaishamyam – Dosha Samyam Arogata – is a golden reference to tell that we live with the friends which can turn foes at anytime*

*Doshas are masked missiles. Their intelligence is to attack but this intelligence is masked. When we change the programming and decode them, their masked intelligence gets exposed and they attack the system in which they are in. Otherwise they are programmed to protect our system*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*(Very beautiful wordings used.*😊🙏🏻

*We are not to forget that they are the basic constituents of the body where they get stored in the form of Dhatus and become active as Doshas whenever required in the body like in physiological as well as pathological conditions. Similarly they get in the form of 'Malas/metabolic waste and get excreted from the body, when body unable to expel them out, then Auto immune phenomenon takes place only.)*

👇👇👇👇👇👇👇

*Thanks sir, thanks for your additions too.🙏*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

*What is the remedy?*

Since the doshas are hyperactive, they are causing the diseases. Therefore their *hyperactivity should be suppressed*

👉 *_Vasti, Virechana and Vamana are the best remedies for expelling the hyperactive doshas. Shodhana / Panchakarma measures are the best immunosuppressive therapies from Ayurveda perspective_*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*(If we will say panchakarma as immunosuppressive procedure then modern definition of it will not be justified. Panchakarma expels the basic Root cause of Autoimmunity that aggravated the immune response. So we can say it is indirectly immunosuppressive after the removing the basic cause.)*

👇👇👇👇👇👇👇

✔ *Okay sir. My thought was that immunosupression too is targeting to suppress the hyperactive components of immune system. I was just trying to see that from Ayurveda perspective. Your points appreciated and noted sir🙏*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

*Types of immunosuppression*

Modern science tells that *immunosuppression may cause immunodeficiency* 

Therefore *samyak shuddhi lakshanas should be looked for* Atishuddhi or hina shuddhi may once again play with our immunity.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*(Sorry Sir 🙏🏻! I am not agree with this.)*

👇👇👇👇👇👇👇

*Okay sir*🙏

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Modern science speaks about *deliberate and non-deliberate types of immunosupression*

👉 *Shodhana, shamana, types of langhana, rasayana, etc can be viewed as examples of deliberate immunosupression* 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*(if we try to fit above measures in frame of immunosuppressant then a lot of questions will be there. कफपित्ते द्रवे धातू सहते लंघनं बहु । दोषक्षये ऊर्ध्वमपि वात न सहते क्षणम् ।। (भा प्र), how  langhan can be immunosuppressive ? It gives opportunity to body heal itself by digesting the Aam-dosha mainly which is responsible for autoimmune response.)*

👇👇👇👇👇👇👇

*That was in comparison to deliberate immunosupression dear sir. Deliberate is therapeutic*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

*(My request to you and all experts of the subject in context to immunosuppressive agent that please review the concept. I have tried my level best to clarify the concept of immunosuppressant. It's sometimes unnecessary to interpret ayurved in modern specific frame.)*

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*(Namaste Sir ! Thank you very much for your great description. As an honest scholar, I have expressed my views. Requesting you to give required guidance of something is unnecessary or outlined. I also request to you, ojha Sir, katoch Sir, dr. Atul and all expert to draw a conclusion for this discussion please.)*

*(Prof. Surendra A. Soni)*

👇👇👇👇👇👇👇

*Namaste sir. Thanks for reading and replying to every point in depth. And also for making necessary suggestions. Your objections, clarifications and compliments, everything is welcome sir. Your views are welcome and I have noted them. 🙏🙏💐💐*

*DrRaghuram*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[7/18, 4:49 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 Respected Sir !

Thank you very much for balanced reply. This is the way of 'Sambhasha' that enriches each other including the moto of *'bahujan-hitay as well as bahujan- sukhay'*.

I have expressed in my previous posts that the concept of immunosuppressant agent can never be accommodated in Ayurveda because these are substances interfering the action of Dhatwagni directly, that's why it's very difficult to corelate its action in Ayurved terminology because we don't have such drugs in our system. How will we justify steroid induced diabetes, bone demineralization, moon face, water retention etc. This is the reason that I had put my hypothesis as 'Aavaravogenesis'. I was expecting your valuable inputs on this hypothesis mainly.

*One other simple way is there to explain the such action as diversion of Vital capacity/jivaniya shakti /kayagni of the body towards the site of specific lesion ignoring the (Homeostasis) remaining part of the body(selectivity). I don't know whether it will be acceptable by our great gurus like hon'ble ojha Sir, katoch Sir, subhash Sir etc. There is no other way to accommodate Immunosuppressant in Ayurved. This also justify the sort of relief or feeling of well being in patients by its selective action at site of lesion directly.*

It's now time for us to understand the action of modern drugs properly as per ayurved concept, how these substances are affecting the dosha, dhatu, malas, srotas etc. We will have to prepare ourselves for great upcoming challenges for our science.

*प्रयोगः शमयेद्व्याधिं योऽन्यमन्यमुदीरयेत् ।*

*नासौ विशुद्धः, शुद्धस्तु शमयेद्यो न कोपयेत् ॥२३॥*

Thanks hon'ble Raghu Sir !

🙏🏻🌹☺️

[7/18, 5:17 PM] Dr.Ranjit Nimbalkar Sir:

 Wonderful discussions on immunosuppresants🙏🏻🙏🏻

I personally feel that, if we understand immunity as व्याधीक्षमत्व,

व्याध्युत्पादप्रतिबंधकत्वं, व्याधिबलविरोधित्वं च।

is the prime function of immunity...

So immunity is comparable with Oja 

ओजोवृद्धौ हि देहस्य तुष्टिपुष्टिबलोदयः।

and प्राकृत कफ

प्राकृतस्तु बलं श्लेष्मा।

Now, in most of the times, if this immunity is not working properly (विकृतो मल उच्यते), either hyper (hypersensitivity) or abnormal (autoimmunity) it needs to be suppressed

So, in such awasthas, immunosuppresants can be considered as *temporary* पाचन dravyas, or दोष लीनावस्थाकारक dravyas, which provide transient symptomatic relief...

Their side effects can be attributed to this दोष लीनत्व कारक activity

In case of organ transplants, where there is no vikruti in immunity, immunosuppresants are used to suppress the graft host reaction...

There they might be considered as ओजःक्षयकारक, and patient has to suffer severe side effects later

🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/18, 7:23 PM] Vd Raghuram Y. S:

 Respected Sir !

Thank you very much for balanced reply. This is the way of 'Sambhasha' that enriches each other including the moto of *'bahujan-hitay as well as bahujan- sukhay'*.

I have expressed in my previous posts that the concept of immunosuppressant agent can never be accommodated in Ayurveda because these are substances interfering the action of Dhatwagni directly, that's why it's very difficult to corelate its action in Ayurved terminology because we don't have such drugs in our system. How will we justify steroid induced diabetes, bone demineralization, moon face, water retention etc. This is the reason that I had put my hypothesis as 'Aavaravogenesis'. I was expecting your valuable inputs on this hypothesis mainly.

👇👇👇👇👇👇👇

Respected Soni sir,

*I just loved what you said sir - Bahujana hitaaya, bahujana sukhaya' that should be the direction of our discussions which lay foundation and platform for futuristic fruitful actions* 👌👌❤💐🙏

I am not being stubborn. We need not correlate immunosupression with any Ayurveda concept. But we may still think, though we don't hv such drugs don't we have strategies to calm down hyperactivity of certain components of immune system or our system to be precise. Health and immunity as per Ayurveda are based on equilibrium of doshas, dhatus, malas, and prasannata of atma,  indriyas and mala. When there us hyperactivity of doshas they cause diseases and we either suppress or eliminate them. Okay, we can't exactly correlate these concepts, but it was just an attempt from me. 

But as you said dear sir, exact correlation may not be possible. Not only with immunosupression but also with many such concepts. We need not. 

Aavaranogenesis seems to be a concept we need to think of in many situations of our discussion. I cannot comment on this aspect right now. It's a rich concept wherein all of us need to pour our thoughts. Understanding aavarana properly would open up many gates to understanding critical and puzzled concepts. 🙏🙏

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

*One other simple way is there to explain the such action as diversion of Vital capacity/jivaniya shakti /kayagni of the body towards the site of specific lesion ignoring the (Homeostasis) remaining part of the body(selectivity). I don't know whether it will be acceptable by our great gurus like hon'ble ojha Sir, katoch Sir, subhash Sir etc. There is no other way to accommodate Immunosuppressant in Ayurved. This also justify the sort of relief or feeling of well being in patients by its selective action at site of lesion directly.*

👇👇👇👇👇👇👇

Seems interesting but I did not catch up with the concept with this context sir. I need to think on it. 

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

It's now time for us to understand the action of modern drugs properly as per ayurved concept, how these substances are affecting the dosha, dhatu, malas, srotas etc. We will have to prepare ourselves for great upcoming challenges for our science.

👇👇👇👇👇👇👇

Agree with you sir🙏🙏👌

*प्रयोगः शमयेद्व्याधिं योऽन्यमन्यमुदीरयेत् ।*

*नासौ विशुद्धः, शुद्धस्तु शमयेद्यो न कोपयेत् ॥२३॥*

Thanks hon'ble Raghu Sir !

🙏🏻🌹☺️

👇👇👇👇👇👇👇

Thanks hon dearest Soni sir🙏🙏💐

Felt good to have one to one discussion with you. Could tap lot more ideas and concepts from your wisdom sir. 🙏🙏💐

DrRaghuram !

[7/18, 10:55 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Immunosuppressants immunostimulants & immunomodulators ➡️ after going through discussion on immunity, autoimmunity and immunosuppressants/ immunostimulants/  immunomodulators, etc , I find excellent knowledge provided by dr Katoch sir , Dr Pratibha , Dr Raghuram , Dr Pawan and Dr Surendra . 

There are different thoughts of school and  they have their logic and all thoughts are appreciated. 

My opinion is that prayatna, bala, urjaa are udaana vayu karma should be considered as initial of immune phenomenon . Immune system is integral part of body and play role as controller with nervous system and endocrine system. It's not just oja it's much more in which triguna and tridosha participate at every stage and assure intact defence system. Matrija bhaava, koola, desha , saatmya, sattva, pramaana , Prakriti ,etc have their significant role. Dravya acts at different level, the mechanism is complex but we have to find out whether tridoshaghna dravya or vaatghna or kaphaghna or pittaghna or kaphavaataghna, etc are active in maintaining vyaadhi kshamatva to normalcy. 

Immunosuppressants act as suppressor may cause certain side affects which are not acceptable in Ayurveda, therefore,  as per principles, such word is not acceptable, but these words are used in contemporary science based on scientific studies. Various plants used in Ayurveda since centuries contain certain alkaloids which act as immunosuppressants/ immunostimulants/ immunomodulators. 

Amritaa like dravya have immunosuppressant effects without any side effects show that these dravya also contain chemical which prevents side effects. It's very tough for me to come on conclusion whether immunosuppressants should be considered in Ayurveda or not..

[7/18, 11:34 PM] Vd Rajnikant Patel:

 👏👏👏

[7/18, 11:40 PM] DR. RITURAJ VERMA:

 नमो नमः गुरुवर

[7/19, 12:13 AM] Vd Rangaprasad Bhat:

 पिप्पली !? As in वर्धमान पिप्पली रासायनं !? 🤔

[7/19, 12:20 AM] Vd Rangaprasad Bhat:

 वचा !? As in Vacha Rasayanam !?🤔

[7/19, 12:21 AM] Vd Rangaprasad Bhat:

 Modulation of immune response to alleviate disease has been of interest since long. Plant extracts have been widely investigated for possible immunomodulatory properties. We have evaluated the anticellular and immunomodulatory properties of ethanolic extract of Acorus calamus rhizome. *This extract inhibited proliferation of mitogen (phytohaemagglutinin; PHA) and antigen (purified protein derivative; PPD)-stimulated human peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMCs). In addition, A. calamus extract inhibited growth of several cell lines of mouse and human origin. It also inhibited production of nitric oxide (NO), interleukin-2 (IL-2) and tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-alpha).* Intracytoplasmic interferon-gamma (IFN-gamma) and expression of cell surface markers, CD16 and HLA-DR, on human PBMC, were not affected on treatment with A. calamus extract *but CD25 expression was down regulated*. Our *study demonstrates the antiproliferative and immunosuppressive* potential of *ethanolic extract of A. calamus rhizome in vitro*.

[7/19, 12:35 AM] Vd Rangaprasad Bhat:

 *पुनर्नवा* ऽपि exhibits immunosuppressant activity.... !? 🤔

Ethanolic extracts of B. diffusa is found to have immunosuppressive properties and reduces the production of TNF-α and IL-2 in human PBMCs, suppresses human NK cells and the generation of NO in murine macrophages (Mehrotra et al., 2003). Immunosuppressive action is possibly due to the alkaloid/lignin compounds. Pandey et al. found that chloroform and ethanolic extract treatment in RAW 264.7 cell line under LPS stimulation induced NO production, inhibited PHA-induced proliferation, and production of TNF-α and IL-2 from PBMCs. Eupalitin-3-O-β-d-galactopyranoside the bioactive compound isolated from ethanolic extracts was found to be most effective (Pandey et al., 2005).

Source: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/biochemistry-genetics-and-molecular-biology/boerhavia-diffusa

[7/19, 1:10 AM] Vaidyaraj Subhash Sharma: 

*namaskar  Dr. Ranga ji, 🌹🙏 how can we understand immunosuppressants according to the principles of Ayurveda and what is your personal opinion on this whole subject ?*

[7/19, 1:19 AM] Vaidyaraj Subhash Sharma: 

*एक सम्पूर्ण द्रव्य में रस, गुण, वीर्य, विपाक और प्रभाव होता है । गुडूची महातिक्त घृत का घटक चरक में है जो कुष्ठ रोग जिसमें psoriasis जिसे autoimmune disease कहा है उसमें दिया जाता है।*

*आयुर्वेद को आयुर्वेद की भाषा में समझें तो हर विषय सरलता से समझ आ जाता है और चिकित्सा की जा सकती है।*

[7/19, 2:21 AM] Vd Rangaprasad Bhat:

 Namaskar Bhaiyya ji, 

My understanding of the aforesaid subject goes with limitations caused by logical thinking and parallel thinking parameters, which may be either accepted or rejected by the learned samUha. 

Taking an example of an organ transplantation it is understood that the cellular immunity gets affected with immunotoxicity caused by the rejection of the donor cells of the donor organ by the recipient's body or immune system. Which hence requires adoption of immunosuppressants to control the immunotoxicity so as to bring homeostasis in recipients body. 

Having said that, a bahir shalya (i.e., donor's organ) was a causative factor to cause antar vega of dUShi viSha within the body of the recipient causing viable changes within various dhAtus of the recipients body depending upon the level of toxicity or vega seeping or penetrating the various levels of dhAtus. 

At such circumstances to counter the effect of antarvega of viSha, based on uShNam uShNena samayanti, high and loaded doses of dIpana & pAcanIya dravyAs, especially those that which have uttarottara dhAtu poShaka pariNAma starting from rasa dhAtu, through the process of ayana reaching the higher dhAtus, when given as rasAyana, they start countering there viSha vega caused by the bahir shalyam. 

In short, with my alpa buddhi, I logically have understood the immunotoxic event as dUshi viSha and countering it with immunosuppressants as rasAyana with dipana pAcana dravyas, based on the similia similibus curanter tatva - हेतुविपरितार्थकारी तत्व  (उष्णमुष्णेन शमयन्ति) ।।

[7/19, 6:35 AM] Vaidya Sanjay P. Chhajed:

 Really appreciable sir, do we need to classify the Ayurveda medicine under the various categories under immunity. As it's a common observation that those Ayurved drugs which improves immunity are very commonly used in autoimmune diseases. I can share the experience with Pippali and Ashwagandha. Which are known to improve immunoglobulins are equally useful in autoimmune diseases. I agree with Subhash sir that it is better to understand Ayurved medicine as per their

Rasa

Vipak

Virya

Prabhav

Guna

It becomes logical only then to use it. Considering pharmacological action to treat is difficult

[7/19, 6:49 AM] Dr. Pawan Madan: 

Good mng sir.

Ultimate conclusion and guidance by you Guru ji.

Actually we all are sailing in the same boat, only the way of expression might be different.

There could be many alkloids which may act like immunosuppresant agents like the synthetic chemicals made fir this. And these alkloids could be extracted fron the plants like Amrita. But when we use amrita as whole plant it acts by way of its rasa guna virya vipaak prabhaav aadi to establish the dhaatu saamyataa by working on dosha dooshya samoorchana and when used properly as you often guide, ot would be a permanant effect unless one indulges in the hetus again.

Thank you very much sir.

💐❤️💐

[7/19, 6:50 AM] Dr. Pawan Madan: 

Good mng Bro.

Here in also the research has been based on the e tracts or the alkaloids.

🙏

[7/19, 6:51 AM] Dr. Pawan Madan: 

Extract

[7/19, 6:55 AM] Dr. Pawan Madan:

 Inteeesting..

Now the question arises..

How do the Rasayan act in the body?

[7/19, 7:36 AM] Vd Rangaprasad Bhat:

 Good morning brother. 

Yes, I could only get research study based on alkaloids done by modern researchers following standard research protocol meters.

And when we say and use the keywords, Immunosuppressants; auto immune, SLE, Psoriasis, etc during discussions should we not be open in welcoming the outcomes of researches done with alkaloids. 

The methods of extract may be different between both the sciences, where in most of our extracts are water based like guduci satva, kalyAnaka kshAra, ajamoda arka etc. 

We express in a technical terms &  parameters of our own, they express it in their own technical terms. 

Our researches never are carried out looking out for the alkaloids in aforesaid yogas, the necessity of which donot arise for our understanding of the researched yoga but remains within our siddhanta. 

Who knows whether the aforesaid yogas contains the contents of the drug as a whole or just any specific bhaga (like specific alkaloids) of the single herb used ? 

When we have not approached our Yogas implementing research in that angle, how can I blatantly refuse to accept the studies based on alkaloids !? 

The key word used in the discussions when be with the verbal or adjective term of conventional medicine be decorating the discussion, why not the studies with as alkaloids be quoted to substantiate a point of constructive argument raised regarding a topic !? 

The principles like vasudhaiva kutumbhakam remains the same be it in Sanskrit or in Latin or in Tamil or any other languages. 

una domus est mundus = Latin

Yaadhum oore yaavarum kaeleer = Tamil 

Vasudhaiva kuthumbhakam = Sanskrit

[7/19, 7:40 AM] Vd Rangaprasad Bhat:

 Behold ! 

Here comes the relatiating counter question ! 

In which parameters the action of Rasayan need to be addressed ?

Ayurveda siddhant or Modern parameters !? 🤔🤪🙏

[7/19, 7:49 AM] Vd Rangaprasad Bhat:

 Amrita as a whole - OK ✅

What about amrita used as satva ? Which for convenience must of the physicians use in their formulations. 

Will it not be having alkaloids in it or will it have the full potency of the herb ? 

How to justify the use of the satva and whole herb ? 

In fact what will be the composition of wholeness of amrita when used as kashaya ?

[7/19, 7:56 AM] Dr. Janardhana V hebbar:

 The ancient masters were in favour of using a specific set of plant chemicals instead of using the whole plant. This may look counterintuitive but they were preparing sahasra Paka Bala taila, sahasra puti abhrak bhasma etc. 

By doing this multiple processes they were trying to use only a specific set of phytochemicals in their medicines. 

Guduchi satva can also be an example for this. 

Even simple decoctions hot in fusion cold in fusion etc are also a form of extraction itself.

[7/19, 7:58 AM] Dr. Janardhana V hebbar:

 Arishta is an alcohol and water soluble extractive of the herbs 

Herbal kitchen herbal oils are fat or oil soluble extractive of the herbs and so on..

[7/19, 7:58 AM] Vd Rangaprasad Bhat:

 When we speak of Jyotishmati, if I'm not wrong, most of the phalashruti are based on the use of its cold compressed oil extraction, by our Acharyas ! 

Learned members, correct me if I'm wrong. 

But, why is that the world surrounding us is using beeja churna (with lesser efficacy) in its formulations ? 

Why compromise in the siddhanta ? (Is it for practical difficulties or for one's own convenience ?)

The questions like these may arise in infinite mode. If we ought to beget any answer, on personal level, I find no harm in taking the help of conventional research studies for understanding our siddhant on a parallel note of thinking.

[7/19, 7:58 AM] Dr. Janardhana V hebbar:

 *herbal ghee

[7/19, 7:59 AM] Dr. Pawan Madan: 

Bro

🙂

I didnt say, We cant accept, we can, we should , but thats a different angle.

A whole lot of science is working in this way, its good , it helps in many ways, thats a different way.

🙏🙏

[7/19, 7:59 AM] Dr. Pawan Madan:

 Ayurveda sidhaant

Thats what was my idea in the previous massage also.

[7/19, 8:00 AM] Dr. Pawan Madan: 

Let the dravyguna experts describe the composition of Amrita Satva.

[7/19, 8:04 AM] Vd Rangaprasad Bhat:

 The angle of vision from them is authoritative. Accepted. But most of the time the discussions are very broad and interdisciplinary opinions get expressed based on one's observation and understanding. Hence the query is open to all, so that I too may get a clearer envision about the point raised. 🙏

[7/19, 8:05 AM] Dr. Pawan Madan: 

We need to differentiate ...what is the difference between the composition of e.g. guduchi satva and any alkaloid extracted with chemical methods. I cant comment much on this.

I remember of the effects of Reserpine alkaloid and the sarpagandha as whole.

And as far as I know the shastrokt methods intends to refer to all the ingredients other than the fibre part, perhaps.

Dravyguna experts can explain more, will wait for their inputs.

[7/19, 8:39 AM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir: 

Yes Dr Ojha, it is not desirable to admit that immunosuppressants as such are described in Ayurveda. But it is better to conclude that we can not deny the availability of Ayurvedic immunomodulating drugs, which are used for enhancing immunity index in immunodeficiency conditions and for modulating immune responses in autoimmune disorders.  We should also avoid using the term 'immunostimulant' because it is not the direct stimulation of immunity matrix but the stimulation of pathways responsible for making immunity  Trust, all may agree.

[7/19, 8:57 AM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir: 

All this is happening because drugs used/prescribed by  the Ayurveda practitioners are manufactured for commercial interest and unwanted raw materials in contravention of the Ayurvedic principles/guidelines are brought into the formulations.

[7/19, 9:03 AM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 *आहारश्च विहारश्च यः स्याद्दोषगुणैः समः ।*

*धातुभिर्विगुणश्चापि स्रोतसां स प्रदूषकः ॥२३॥*

Ch. Vi. -5

Chakrapani-

👇🏻

*आहारश्चेत्यादिना सामान्येन सर्वस्रोतोदुष्टिमाह। दोषगुणैः सम इत्यनेन दोषातिवर्धकत्वं दर्शयति। क्षीणाश्च दोषा नान्यदुष्टिं कुर्वन्ति, किं तु स्वयमेव क्षीणस्वलिङ्गा भवन्तीत्यादि वेदितव्यम्। धातुभिर्विगुण इति धातुविरोधकस्वभाव इत्यर्थः, नतु धातुविपरीतगुणे विगुणः; दिवास्वप्नमेद्यादयो हि मेदसा समानगुणा एव मेदोदूषका उक्ताः॥२३॥*

👆🏻

Original Reference

Proposed modification or extended interpretation in context to immunosuppressant for understanding only.

👇🏻

*औषध श्च* आहारश्च विहारश्च यः स्याद्दोषगुणैः *(S. & S. Of Autoimmune patholigy)* समः *(Temporary suppressive action)* ।

धातुभिर्विगुणश्चापि स्रोतसां स प्रदूषकः *(Cause of undesirable/adverse action)* ॥२३॥

🙏🏻🌹😌

[7/19, 11:13 AM] Vaidya Shrikrishna Khandel Sir: 

Dear Surendra please go into the deeper meaning

Diet and practices which are similar to doshaguna means increasing the Dosha and simultaneously opposite to dhatu will damage the patency of microchannels 

Cha + API 

Means both together can damage 

Only Dosha vardhak cannot 

Only dhatu virodhi too can't

[7/19, 11:33 AM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Dhatuvishist Srotas mein khavaigunya hona avashayak hai dosh-dusya sammoorchchna ke liye. Kha Vaigunya dhatu pradooshak (dhatu gun karma virodhi) aahar - vihar se hi utapann hota hai.  Hardik Dhanyavad Sir yeh bindu spasht karane ke liye.

[7/19, 11:44 AM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha:

 Three specific hetu 

(1) Dosha prakopaka

(2) Dhaatu dooshyakar

(3) kha vaigunyakar 

work together to induce disease .. 

Thanks for your input

[7/19, 11:51 AM] Vd.Divyesh Desai : 

सरजी, आपने ये अच्छा संदर्भ दिया, इस श्लोक के साथ साथ

कुपितानाम ही दोषाणाम

शरीरे परिधावताम,

यत्र संग खः वैगुण्यात,

व्याधिस्तत्र उपजायते।।

और जो 4 स्त्रोतों दृष्टि के लक्षण है 

अति प्रवृति संगो वा

सिराणाम ग्रंथियों अपि वा

विमार्गगमनम च अपि

स्त्रोतों दृष्टि लक्षणं।।

ये सब का हरेक व्याधि में या फिर ऑटो इम्यून डिजीज में उतना ही महत्व है,

आप ने ऑटो इम्यून डिजीज का निदान बताया जो कि सभी व्याधि के लिए भी यही कारण है, तो हमे तो

दोषोका क्षय, वृद्धि या गुणों के आधार या अंशांश कल्पना के आधार पर ही या हरेक रोगोकी सम्प्राप्ति बनाकर ही विघटन करना चाहिए इस लिए आपकी बात के साथ मे सहमत हूँ कि आयुर्वेद में

IMMUNO

SUPPRESSION द्रव्य को किसके साथ compare किया जाय? जय आयुर्वेद

जय धनवंतरि।।

🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/19, 12:02 PM] Dr.Mamata Bhagwat Ji:

 👌🏻👌🏻 very aptly mentioned sir💐💐

देहधातु प्रत्यनीकभूतानि द्रव्याणि देहधातुभिः विरोधमापद्यन्ते।विरुद्ध गुण सन्निपाते भूयसा अल्पः अवजीयते।।

[7/19, 12:06 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Vastav mein Dhatupradooshan hi khavaigunya hai, jo dosh Vaishamya ke saath mil kar rog prakriya (arthat Vikriti - Pathology) ko prarambh karata hai .

[7/19, 12:18 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha:

 Dhooma induces khavaigunya in praanavaha srotas. 

Aspirin induces khavaigunya in aamaashaya.

Nicotine induces khavaigunya in raktavaha srotas .

It's my humble submission..

[7/19, 12:22 PM] Vd Raghuram Y. S:

 Namaste Guruji🙏💐

Very well explained about other unseen dimensions of the topic of discussion sir. Udana Vayu karma, integrity of immune system with other systems, and consideration of matrujadi bhavas, and complexities of understanding this topic have been beautifully elaborated by your kind self🙏🙏💐

I too found it tough to conclude this topic at a logical level sir🙏💐

[7/19, 12:26 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Dr Raghuram ji, 

a complexity of pathogenesis makes autoimmune diseases tough to manage .. 

Multiple factors including genetic factors & environmental factors are involved in autoimmune phenomenon ..

[7/19, 12:26 PM] Vd Raghuram Y. S: 

Well said Guruji, 👏🙏💐❤️

Nice perspective about not using the term immunostimulant sir👌👌🙏

.... *stimulation of pathways*👌👌

[7/19, 12:28 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha:

 In presence of aplasia, we need to stimulate the pathways especially primitive stem cells

[7/19, 12:28 PM] Vd Raghuram Y. S:

 Nice sir...perfect, noted...all factors need to be considered before coming to logical conclusions and arriving at some agreeable finish🙏🙏💐❤️

[7/19, 12:30 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 Pranam resp. Guruji !

आहारश्च विहारश्च यः

 1. *स्याद्दोषगुणैः समः।*

2. *धातुभिर्विगुणश्चापि* स्रोतसां स प्रदूषकः ॥२३॥

You are absolutely correct as per grammatical perspective. Acharya Chakrapani explained the same.

No. 1 is dosha Sam and No. 2 is Dhatu vigun while No. 1 can be Act as per No. 2 action then No. 2 can also as per Dosha vigun vice versa.

I request you to guide further in this context. 

I am putting one example of my personal understanding. I need your guidance further.

Use of Kshar in Amlapitta is doshasam /dhatu vigun, still upashay

but use of Atisneha/ksheer in krisha is dhosha vigun and dhatu sam, still Anupashay.

Actually you are right with each and every word but practical meaning of this shlok is not worth until we apply the vice versa concept. Simply I would like to know the practical utility of this shloka in whatever applicable context.

Dosha and Dhatu have Aashray-ashrayi bhav, we all know so in present context when Diet and practice increase the dosha and opposite to Dhatu, which is the meaning of the shloka; now further questions rise how it does work ? Chakrapani exampled.........

धातुभिर्विगुण इति *धातुविरोधकस्वभाव इत्यर्थः,* 

Here we need to know that how it's dhatuvirodhak ?

नतु धातुविपरीतगुणे विगुणः;

This is justified that no opposite rukshadi gunas are responsible here.

 दिवास्वप्नमेद्यादयो हि मेदसा समानगुणा एव मेदोदूषका उक्ताः॥२३॥

Medodushaka term is referred as Vigunatva ? If this is the simple meaning then why the word 'vigun' had been used instead of simple 'Dushti' ? 

I don't know whether we need to apply specific ''Tantra-yukti' here or not ?

I really want to learn exact meanings of the  above Shloka practically.

🙏🏻🌹

[7/19, 12:31 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Accepted Ojha Ji. 👍

[7/19, 12:33 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha:

 Great relaxation.. with regards.. 🙏🙏

[7/19, 12:38 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Dr Surendra , any specific reference of kshaara used in amlapitta ?? 

I am missing it please

[7/19, 12:43 PM] Vd. Mohan Lal Jaiswal:

 किंचित् दोष प्रशमनं किंचित धातु प्रदूषण ं स्वस्थ वृत्तौ मतं किंचित्  त्रिविध ं दद्रव्यमुच्यते। च. सू.1

इस सूत्र को परिवर्तित रुप में उपरोक्त के

Ref. में विचार हो सकता है?  

मोहन लाल जायसवाल

[7/19, 12:43 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Further to say that realistically  srotovaigunya means structural disturbance in the concerned dhatu leading to functional disturbance in the Srotas activities.

[7/19, 12:44 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 Pranam Sir !

No clear classical reference but it has been used in Grahani by Charak.

Discussing shloka has great relationship between koshtha and shakha. We are to find the this relationship in context to koshtha for Dosha and Shakha in reference because they behave differently.

🙏🏻🌹

[7/19, 12:44 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

जी निश्चित रुप से

[7/19, 12:46 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha:

 In kaphaja grahani not in pittaja grahani

In koshtha gata vaata not in aamaashaya gata vaata

[7/19, 12:49 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

नमो नमः गुरुजी ।

1. किंचित् दोष प्रशमनं 2. किंचित धातु प्रदूषण ं 3. स्वस्थ वृत्तौ मतं किंचित्  त्रिविधं द्रव्यमुच्यते। 

च. सू.1

प्रासंगिक उद्धरण । कई द्रव्य 1 और 2 दोनों कार्य करते हैं ऐसा मान सकते हैं क्या गुरुजी ?

🙏🏻🌹😌

[7/19, 12:50 PM] Vd Raghuram Y. S:

 Wow sir.. awesome reference...and *excellent proposed modification*👌👌🙏💐❤️

If I am not wrong, 

*1* *Aushadhas which have similar gunas to doshas cause their aggravation. These doshas cause dhatu dushti and hence immunosupression occurs*

👉 *Then this doesn't explain deliberate immunosupression. Bcoz the aushadha would have been given by chance factor. If this repeatedly happens with a particular aushadha, we can consider it to be causing immunosupression leading to immune deficiency which again opens up the gates for research*

*2* *This verse anyways doesn't explain the deliberate immunosupression explained by modern texts as part of therapeutic measure for autoimmune disorders and during organ transplant*

👉 *One of the major effects of immunosupression is immune deficiency. So we treat immune deficiency through Ayurveda and also autoimmune disorders. My question is - Aren't our immune modulators or interventions for autoimmune disorders suppressing over expression of immune system components too, if we are viewing our treatments from modern lens?*

*Topic is still debatable*

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

*But thanks for your inputs and reference sir, it opened up new gates...*🙏🙏💐

[7/19, 12:51 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

It's practical experience, none can deny. *Eno* has great turn over.

🙏🏻

[7/19, 12:51 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha:

 Structural changes in esophagus ➡️ inflammation➡️ ulceration➡️ fibrosis➡️ stricture➡️ Barrett's mucosa ➡️ adenocarcinoma

[7/19, 12:52 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Acharya chakrapani's commentary is very informative and helpful to understand , please refer once again..

[7/19, 12:52 PM] Vd Raghuram Y. S: 

Nice queries and inputs dear Soni sir...needs plenty of brainstorming for this...🙏🙏💐👌

[7/19, 12:53 PM] Vd Chinmay phondekar:

 Major event is continuous irritation leads to changes from squamous epithelium to columnar epithelium.

[7/19, 12:54 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Yes , but what is about Ayurveda principles ?

[7/19, 12:54 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

You are bound to talk with Ayurveda perspectives , immunosuppressants are not acceptable but Eno is accepted because of convenience.. 😂🤣😅

[7/19, 12:55 PM] Vd Raghuram Y. S:

 Actually thanks a lot sir for constantly guiding us in the right pathway and not allowing us to deviate...with your inputs of your immense wisdom. Blessed we are. Thanks for your words of blessings dear sir🙏🙏💐❤️

[7/19, 12:56 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Yes , that transformation from squamous epithelium to columnar epithelium is caused by vaata itself..

[7/19, 12:56 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Indirect references of using Kshar in Amlapiitta are given in the treatment context of Annadravashool and Parinaamshool, which result as complication of Amlapiitta.

[7/19, 12:58 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha:

 Reference from Kaashyapa samhita or chakradatt should be appreciated..

[7/19, 1:03 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

😃😂🤗

Jay ho Mahamahim !

As per Ayurved kshar is Upashay in Kaphanubandhi Amlapitta, a condition of Saam pitta.

नमो नमः ।

🙏🏻🌹☺️

[7/19, 1:03 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Narikela Lavan in Bhaishajya Ratnavali is clearly indicated for Amlapiitta and Parinasmshula. In fact Narikel & Lavan burnt together are turned into alkaline (kshariye) mixture.

[7/19, 1:05 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 महामुनिवर ओझा साब !

भल्लातक क्षार भी है ।

🙏🏻🌹

[7/19, 1:09 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Bhallataka not in pittaja vikaara , never in pittala Prakriti , majaaka majaaka me kanhi anaphylaxis shock n ho jaaya 😂🤣

[7/19, 1:14 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

रोगप्रकृतिसात्म्यज्ञस्तान् प्रयोगान्‌‌ प्रकल्पयेत् , च.चि.१/२/१८

[7/19, 1:16 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha:

 *आयुर्वेद दीपिका➡️ अग्निसमानीति दाहस्फोटकर्तृतया*

[7/19, 1:22 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

वैद्यराज सुभाष शर्मा जी इस श्लोक के व्यवहारिक पक्ष को अच्छी तरह समझते हैं , इसीलिए भल्लातक का प्रयोग विभिन्न व्याधियों में करते हैं..‌

[7/19, 1:23 PM] Dr. Satish Jaimini: 

🙏🏻🙏🏻जी गुरुदेव इतना ही लिखा है जो पर्याप्त है

[7/19, 1:26 PM] Dr. PM Sharma:

 Nicotine also increases vaat

[7/19, 1:27 PM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha:

 जी , वातकरगण

[7/19, 3:31 PM] Vaidyaraj Subhash Sharma: 

*thank you very much dear Ranga ji, i was also thinking about similar examples .*

🌹🙏

[7/19, 3:38 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Lateral thinking is always required to resolve the emerging issues of modern medical terms. Thanks Vd Subhash Ji and Vd Rangaprasad for such thoughtful inputs about immunosuppression.

[7/19, 4:24 PM] Vaidyaraj Subhash Sharma: 

*सादर नमन सर, आपने अत्यन्त महत्वपूर्ण बात लिखी है ।मेरे यहां autoimmune diseases के अनेक रोगियों की चिकित्सा चल रही है । शिक्षण क्षेत्र में ना होने के कारण मेरे पास शब्दों का प्राय: अभाव रहता है और आपके उपरोक्त कथन ने मुझे शब्द दे दिये ।* 🌹🙏

*सामान्यत: एक देश में वृद्धि और एक देशे क्षय का सिद्धान्त है लेकिन एक उदाहरण लेते हैं..*

*हेतु अति आतप सेवन और रोग हुआ रक्तपित्त, आतप सेवन से कुपित हुआ पित्त, वृद्धि या दूषित  हुई पित्तवर्गीय रक्त धातु और रक्तवाही स्रोतस में दुष्टि हुई। यह तीनों क्रियायें एक साथ घटित हुई और इसे हम लेंगे व्याधि के उभय हेतु में ।*

*विदेशी लोग कई कई घंटे निरंतर समुद्र किनारे आतप सेवन करते हैं उन्हे त्वचा के कैन्सर और आतप सेवन से गंभीर सनबर्न भी सोरायसिस और स्क्लेरोडर्मा के फ्लेरेस को ट्रिगर करता है।आतप सेवन कुछ लोगों में lupus को ट्रिगर कर सकता है जो पहले से ही खवैगुण्य हो कर कुपित दोषों  का स्थान संश्रय हो चुका था।ये सब autoimmune disorders है जिन्हे हम आसानी से अंशाश कल्पना और हेतु के अंश को पकड़ कर आयुर्वेद सिद्धान्तों के अनुसार समझ सकते हैं।*

*आमवात के अनेक रोगियों में हमने देखा है कि steroids और anti inflammatory लेने वाले अनेक रोगी अकस्मात ही आतप सेवन से संवेदनशील हो जाते है और इनका त्याग करने के कुछ दिन बाद आराम से आतप सेवन कर सकते हैं।*

[7/19, 4:28 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Steroids and disease modifying drugs  to sab se zyada kha Vaigunya karak hain.

[7/19, 4:29 PM] Vaidyaraj Subhash Sharma:

 *बढ़ा अच्छा और युक्ति युक्त उदाहरण आपने दिया, आज के समय में इसी प्रकार से समझाने की आवश्यकता है जो द्रव्य अब सेवन किये जा रहे हैं।* 🌹🙏

[7/19, 4:36 PM] Vaidyaraj Subhash Sharma:

 *आज एक लंबे अंतराल के बाद आपके द्वारा बह रही ज्ञान गंगा का बहुत आनंद आ रहा है, आपके छोटे छोटे inputs बहुत बढ़े है और हमेशा याद रहते है तथा practice में भी बहुत apply होते है।*

🌹🙏

[7/19, 4:40 PM] Vaidyaraj Subhash Sharma:

 *चिकित्सा करनी है तो प्रथम ज्ञान यही है , इसका ज्ञान ही चिकित्सक को सफलता देता है। ये छोटा सा दिखने वाला सूत्र बृहत व्याख्या अपने अंदर समेटे हुये है ।*

          🌹❤️🙏

[7/19, 4:44 PM] Vaidyaraj Subhash Sharma: 

*हर BAMS अगर कोर्स पूरा होते ही 1 से दो वर्ष अपने समीपस्थ किसी गुरू के यहां या आयुर्वेद hospital में clinical experience ले ले तो देश में आयुर्वेद का स्वरूप ही कुछ और होगा।*

[7/19, 4:47 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Bilkul sahi, pehle Rog Prakariti (underlying Vikriti) aur Rogi Prakriti ( Body-Mind constitution) ko samajh kar hi phaldayi  satmya aahar, vihar aur aushadh ki vyavastha nirdisht ki ja sakati hai.

[7/19, 6:19 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

Raghu Sir ! My reply !

 Wow sir.. awesome reference...and *excellent proposed modification*👌👌🙏💐❤️

🚩

*(Yes Sir ! Together we are trying to explore the meanings of ancient phrases instructed in context to modern concept of immunosuppressants.)*

🚩

If I am not wrong, 

*1* *Aushadhas which have similar gunas to doshas cause their aggravation.*

🚩

*(Absolutely agree Sir.)*

 🚩

*These doshas cause dhatu dushti and hence immunosupression occurs*

🚩

*(Here I differ because there are various types of Dhatu dushti like...

1. दोषाः क्षीणा (degenerative/deficiency condition) बृंहयितव्याः, 

2. कुपिताः (indicative of aggression/vitiation at  various levels including koshtha, shakha, marmasthisandhi etc. Even if I say that it includes the Autoimmunity too then it must not be wrong.) प्रशमयितव्याः, 

3. वृद्धा निर्हर्तव्याः (द्रव्य-गुण-कर्मतः वृद्धतः),

We need to understand the difference in 'Prakop' and 'Vriddha' in reference to various other aspects like 6 kriyakal, Doshagatis etc..

समाः परिपाल्या इति सिद्धान्तः ।।३।।

*As per above reference we tried to understand Dhatudushti, so we can say that dhatu dushti is not immunosuppressive always. It will always lead to decrease in its normal function first for specific/general Dhatu/dhatus. Use of the term Immunosuppressive may cause confusion here. Vriddha/increased shleshma may cause Gourav, Aalasya, graha etc, this is not because of immunosuppressive action while it can be relieved by vigorously physical exercise only. My only moto/effort is that modern terminology must not creat any kind of confusion among us.)*

🚩##############

👉 *Then this doesn't explain deliberate immunosupression. Bcoz the aushadha would have been given by chance factor. If this repeatedly happens with a particular aushadha, we can consider it to be causing immunosupression leading to immune deficiency which again opens up the gates for research*

🚩

*(The modern term immunosuppression is very much specific where immune factors get suppressed selectively or specifically with various identified entities that we call immune components with different names like T/B cells, WBC etc. If we want to understand ayu drug's or nidana's action then we will have to adopt modern parameters. Bala/physical strength is not the only criteria to understand immunosuppressive action. We have the concept of आदौsन्ते च दौर्बल्यं विसर्गादानयो: नृणाम् ।*

*We don't compare above phrase with immunosuppression but actually it's; may be very very minutes, unrecordable, undiscoverable; but it's there as per 'Kaal-prabhaav'.*

################

*2* *This verse anyways doesn't explain the deliberate immunosupression explained by modern texts as part of therapeutic measure for autoimmune disorders and during organ transplant*

*(With the help of above of your statement I would like to draw your kind attention that Autoimmunity is the deepest (Gambhirtam) and very very specific reactions of the body where unwanted, undesirable body substance cause to this like you gave example of organ transplantation. There may be various other internal (Nija- like Viruddhahar)causes for this also.*

*I didn't try to explain autoimmunity with shloka आहारश्च....; I  tried to accommodate the action of immunosuppressive modern drugs only.)*

🚩

👉 *One of the major effects of immunosupression is immune deficiency. So we treat immune deficiency through Ayurveda and also autoimmune disorders. My question is - Aren't our immune modulators or interventions for autoimmune disorders suppressing over expression of immune system components too, if we are viewing our treatments from modern lens?*

*(My humble submission- No ! Actually we are helping the immune system to alleviate the basic cause of autoimmunity. But it is not possible in condition of organ transplantation. I gave you example of shloka kaf-pitte drave dhatu... concerned to langhan. Same with our shaman drugs. Our shodhan is also capable to dissolve, mobilise and expel the route cause of the autoimmunity achieving the benefits of 'Apunarbhav chikitsa'.)*

*Topic is still debatable*

🚩 *Yes Sir ! There is a need of such debates.*

🚩

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

*But thanks for your inputs and reference sir, it opened up new gates...*🙏🙏💐

🚩🚩🚩🚩

*Thank you very much respected Sir for your great inputs.*

🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩

[7/19, 7:14 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 We can use the term 'Oja Avsaad' or "Vyadhi Kshamtva Saad" for immunosuppression.

[7/19, 7:15 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 Perfect selection of word.

🙏🏻🌹

[7/19, 7:19 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir: 

If agreed to all, Kayasampradaye  should attempt for making a glossary of such terms equivalent for conventional medical conditions.

[7/19, 7:41 PM] Dr. prajakta Tomar:

 Sir I believe there is no immuno suppressive drugs. Nor any therapy or chikitsa stated as immunosuppressive. As there is no term for Ama in allopathy there is no immunosuppressive. Ama is considered as toxic element and when reabsorbed or circulated causes various diseases. It cause hinderance in many functions.

[7/19, 7:42 PM] Prof.Lakshmikant Dwivedi Sir: 

Kafaja grahani ,

Navayascurna(loha) is best Rasayan.

Ref.Bangasena samhita, Rasayan prakaran, loharasayan for kafaja grahani.

Condition is that should be , followed by-SOP-AmRtikRit .

[7/19, 7:45 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir: 

Great inputs Sir. Thanks a lot.

[7/19, 7:49 PM] Dr. Pawan Madan: 

धन्यवाद सोनी जी

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[7/19, 7:54 PM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir:

 Autoimmune disorders ki to fir  Ayurved chikitsa vaise hi karoge Bhai jaise ab kar rahe ho 🤭🤭

[7/19, 8:01 PM] Vd.Divyesh Desai :

 Immunosuppressive drugs की इफ़ेक्ट भी एक राझ है, जो अलोपथी की pseudo मास्टर key है, वैसे हमारे पास रसायन द्रव्य ,नित्य सेविनाम द्रव्य, ऋतु रसायन, नैमित्तिक रसायन ये तो रियल में मास्टर key है।।

विषादों सर्व रोगाणाम ये भी ऑटो इम्यून डिजीज का main cause है, केवल विषाद को दूर करने मात्र से ही बिना किसी द्रव्यभूत चिकित्सा से ही काफी उपशय मिलता हम सब ने देखा है ।।🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/19, 8:30 PM] Vd Shailendra Mehta:

 🙏🏻🙏🏻गुरुदेव,२ दिन नहीं 7 दिन से🙂🙂,,,12 july से यह वार्ता आरंभ हुई थी,,,😢😢

[7/19, 8:35 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 Agree !

I unnecessarily tried to correlate it with srotopradushak nidan. Thanks to khandal Sir for correcting me. 

Doshasam and dhatu vigun terminology created confusion to me. When we look shastra with modern spects then such mistakes are very common. This the benefits of active discussion in presence of great gurus; that your misunderstanding would be not only caught but also correctified.

[7/19, 8:37 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

 आपको संतुष्टि होनी चाहिये कि आपके प्रश्न ने कई सारे सिद्धांत उजागर किए हैं ।

[7/19, 8:39 PM] Vd Shailendra Mehta:

 🙏🏻🙏🏻गुरुजनों एवं प्रकाण्ड विद्वानों की संतुष्टि में ही हम शिष्यों की संतुष्टि निहित है,गुरुवर🙏🏻🙏🏻🌷

[7/22, 10:55 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

*In search of closest correlation in Ayurveda for Term immunosuppressant*

After a week long discussion I am able to reach conclusion that following are the points that may be useful to understand the said.

1. We should remember that Ayurved (Samhita kal) never uses parenteral route for drug administration, it means all over drugs were to be given by oral route mainly.

2. All drugs were mainly of sthavar/jangam origin, no chemical use was there.

3. As steroids are mainly chemical analogue of human hormine hence it's impossible to find exact correlation in Ayurved.

4. But there are principal present in charak samhita as per principal mentioned यदिहास्ति.....

 And that is of 

A. प्रकृतिसमसमवेत/ 

B. विकृतिविषम समवेत ।

5.A. तत्र खल्वनेक१रसेषु द्रव्येष्वनेकदोषात्मकेषु च विकारेषु रसदोषप्रभावमेकैकश्येनाभिसमीक्ष्य ततो द्रव्यविकारयोः प्रभावतत्त्वं व्यवस्येत् ॥९॥

Here drug acts as per Rasadi on Doshas.

5.B. *न त्वेवं खलु सर्वत्र ।*

When above principal doesn't act then

👇🏻

 न हि विकृतिविषमसमवेतानां 

*(Applicable on only Ayurveda drugs because these are multimolicular crude drugs, not on modern drugs that usually single molecular.)*

नानात्मकानां परस्परेण १चोपहतानामन्यैश्च

*(Drug interaction within the various components of a drug/drugs. All these action needs agni hence amount of agni/assimilation capacity, body requirements etc are plenty of factors that affects the basic metabolism.  This action is not possible with most modern drugs because they are mostly unimolicular substance and get absorbed 100%.

विकल्पनैर्विकल्पितानामवयवप्रभावानुमानेनैव समुदायप्रभावतत्त्वमध्यवसातुं शक्यम् ॥१०॥

When there are more probabilities/options are there because of presence of group of drug substances for final outcome then principal of mentioned 5 A is not possible, means rasadi may behave differently in final outcome that cannot be justified with Anuman praman.

Hence

👇🏻

तथायुक्ते हि समुदये (origin of effects of Rasadi Samuday after action of Agni) समुदायप्रभावतत्त्वमेवमेवोपलभ्य 

After knowing the final outcome/efficacy of the drug/drugs...

ततो द्रव्यविकारप्रभावतत्त्वं व्यवस्येत् ॥११॥

Then only the dravyaprabhav must be interpreted.

6. It seems irrelevant to discuss above reference here but it is necessary to understand this, because here acharya is discussing not only Rasadi dravya also but  also Dosha simultaneously. 

7. तस्माद्रसप्रभावतश्च द्रव्यप्रभावतश्च दोषप्रभावतश्च *विकारप्रभावतश्च* 👈 I would request to all great gurus to explain this.

तत्त्वमुपदेक्ष्यामः ॥१२॥

8. अथ खलु त्रीणि द्रव्याणि नात्युपयुञ्जीताधिकमन्येभ्यो द्रव्येभ्यः; तद्यथा- पिप्पली, क्षारः, लवणमिति ॥१५॥

This is very very important concept and much closer to the mode of action of immunosuppressants except Pippali because it has 'Samuday-prabhav' being many molecularly active components within.

Action of kshars and lavans are much closer to it being...

A. Absence of 'Samuday' that is mainly in herbs.

B. 100% solubility like modern drugs.

C. Parentral route administration is possible.

D. These are also 'आपातभद्रा' *(Useful in emergency condition)*

E. Hence the excessive injudicious use of Lavan and Kshar are malicious to the body like modern drugs.

F.  तस्मात्तेषां तत्सात्म्यतः क्रमेणापगमनं श्रेयः । 

If these 2 suited to the body or dependency occurred, these must be withdrawal gradually like immunosuppressants.

सात्म्यमपि हि क्रमेणोपनिवर्त्यमानमदोषमल्पदोषं वा भवति ॥१९॥

Gradual withdrawal is the only way that would be less or no harmful to the body.

Almost All modern drugs act above principales especially immunosuppressants.

 

Please Note: 

I am trying to correlate the basic principal of action of immunosuppressants not the similar action or substitutes of immunosuppressants.

Mistakes are quite possible in my present  hypothesis /  understanding and I am quite positive and hopeful  my dearest gurus will notice it and will guide further.

🙏🏻🌹

[7/22, 11:23 PM] Dr.Mamata Bhagwat Ji:

 Brilliant explanation Sir💐👌🏻💐

Few uncleared matters..

1. If steroids are only synthetic origin, What about phytosteroids and phytosterols?

2. What are the possible concept behind using aphrodisiacs of animal origin? 

Like... Nakra retas, etc. Do they have direct impact on gonado tropins and androgenic hormones most of which are again steroidal ..

3. If immunosuppression is not a concept in Ayurveda, how dhatu viruddha actions are treated? The triggered components should be given a Shanti upaya. What is that Shanti krama or shamana? Does it relate to immuno suppressive action? 

4. How the concept of anaphylaxis is understood? Does it require an intervention that does immunosuppression... May be like sadyo Vamana or sadyo Virechana.. or giving bhallataka or rasoishadhis?

Again applause for your consistent efforts to derive a particular concept and draw a conclusion to the discussion topic...💐💐

[7/22, 11:23 PM] Dr. Pawan Madan:

 Wonderfully incorporated many important point.

The closest would be kshar and lawan, still they are only closest just for discussion. In practice they wont act like immunosuppresant, though they may have many untoward bad effects which indirectly may reflect the immunosuppresant action, but then also they cant be applied as immunosuppresants are used in situaitions like kidney transplant.

But you have raised many imp principles in one line.

I really appreciate the way you explain and discuss.

_____________________

3 RULES TO UNDERSTAND THE ACTIONS OF DRAVYS ---

1

सामान्य ,,, in line with rasa guna virya vipaak...

I.e. dravy acting as per the rasa guna virya vipaak.....all four

2.

Vishesh...Any one dominant manifesting it's action.... 

I.e dravya act either through rasa or virya or vipaak.....whichever is predominantly active as per the panchbhautiktva of that particular dravy.

3.

When 1 and 2 not applicable.....Dravya act by it's PRABHAAV. 

पिप्पली की जो अवस्था है वह विचित्र प्रत्ययारब्ध है क्योंकि जो action है that is not in line with रस गुण वीर्य विपाक but one of them is dominant and that dominant is manifesting it's action in spite के दूसरे विरोधी तत्व भी मौजूद हैं।

अब ये देखिये

प्रभाव एक ऐसी अवस्था या action है जो के द्रव्य के रस गुण वीर्य या विपाक किसी के भी कारण नही है व इन सब से भिन्न है

ये विचित्र प्रत्यारब्ध भी कहा जाता है।

याने के द्रव्य कारमुक्ता के तीन प्रमुख नियम हो सकते है

Immunoauppresant work in body , Not dependent on any of the anove rulea.

My humble submission 🙏🙏

Require more guidance from Great Gurus..🙏💐🙏

[7/22, 11:35 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

Reply to Prof. Mamata ji !

 Brilliant explanation Sir💐👌🏻💐

Few uncleared matters..

1. If steroids are only synthetic origin, What about phytosteroids and phytosterols?

*(they are members of samuday in which they are inbuilt and we are to understand it as per source.)*

2. What are the possible concept behind using aphrodisiacs of animal origin? 

*(स१र्वदा सर्वभावानां सामान्यं वृद्धिकारणम् ।)*

Like... Nakra retas, etc. Do they have direct impact on gonado tropins and androgenic hormones most of which are again steroidal ..

*(Hence स१र्वदा सर्वभावानां सामान्यं वृद्धिकारणम् ।)*

3. If immunosuppression is not a concept in Ayurveda, how dhatu viruddha actions are treated? The triggered components should be given a Shanti upaya. What is that Shanti krama or shamana? 

*(Mentioned in reply to Raghu Sir.)*

Does it relate to immuno suppressive action? 

*(No ! We treat the root cause.)*

4. How the concept of anaphylaxis is understood? 

*(As per shwas /shotha rogas or both or other presentation. Shwas Rx is key.)*

Does it require an intervention that does immunosuppression...

*(Pran raksha, whatever may be the possible...)*

 May be like sadyo Vamana or sadyo Virechana.. or giving bhallataka or rasoishadhis?

*(Why not...?)*

Again applause for your consistent efforts to derive a particular concept and draw a conclusion to the discussion topic...💐💐

Thank you very much madam !

🙏🏻🌹

[7/23, 9:18 AM] Vaidyaraj Subhash Sharma: 

*गुरू शिष्य ...*

*कल देर रात्रि तक प्रो. सुरेन्द्र सोनी जी की यह पोस्ट *

In search of closest correlation in Ayurveda for Term immunosuppressant*

After a week long discussion I am able to reach conclusion that following are the points that may be useful to understand the said.

1. We should remember that Ayurved (Samhita kal) never uses parenteral route for drug administration, it means all over drugs were to be given by oral route mainly.

2. All drugs were mainly of sthavar/jangam origin, no chemical use was there.

3. As steroids are mainly chemical analogue of human hormine hence it's impossible to find exact correlation in Ayurved.

4. But there are principal present in charak samhita as per principal mentioned यदिहास्ति.....

 And that is of 

A. प्रकृतिसमसमवेत/ 

B. विकृतिविषम समवेत ।

5.A. तत्र खल्वनेक१रसेषु द्रव्येष्वनेकदोषात्मकेषु च विकारेषु रसदोषप्रभावमेकैकश्येनाभिसमीक्ष्य ततो द्रव्यविकारयोः प्रभावतत्त्वं व्यवस्येत् ॥९॥

Here drug acts as per Rasadi on Doshas.... 

*पढ़ता रहा और यही सोचता रहा कि  आयुर्वेद में किसी को कोई शंका ना रहे और हर बात का युक्तियुक्त समाधान मिले।*

*गुरू शिष्य परंपरा का सर्वश्रेष्ठ उदाहरण सोनी जी ने कल रात्रि उपरोक्त पोस्ट से सिद्ध कर दिखाया कि कर्म ही प्रधान रखना हैं। चरक संहिता सूत्र स्थान 30 अध्याय और कुल 1952 सूत्र हैं। संपूर्ण चरक में वर्णित विषय चार प्रकार के सूत्रों में कही है। 

1 गुरू सूत्र - शास्त्र परंपरा का ज्ञान जो परंपरा गत चला आ रहा है। 

2 शिष्य सूत्र - अगर गुरू ने कुछ कहा और शिष्य को वो स्पष्ट नही हुआ या संतुष्टि नही मिली तो उस विषय को पुन: विस्तार से विभिन्न उद्धरणों और तर्क से स्पष्ट करना। 

3 प्रतिसंस्कर्तरसूत्र - जैसे अग्निवेश संहिता को चरक ने संशोधन और परिवर्तन कर के लिखा। 4 एकीय सूत्र - किसी विषय को प्रमाणित करने के लिये या उसके समर्थन हेतु किसी अन्य विद्वान या आचार्य के व्यक्तव्यों का उदाहरण प्रमाण रूप में देना।*

*आयुर्वेद गुरू-शिष्य परंपरा का ज्ञान है,जिस प्रकार काय सम्प्रदाय में ज्ञान चर्चा होती है वो प्राचीन काल में चलने वाली पर्वतो, हिम कन्दराओ, नदी तट या गुरूकुलों में होनी वाली संधाय संभाषा का कालानुरूप लौकिक और व्यवहारिक रूप परिवर्तन है।*

*ऋग्वेद के समय से ही भारतीय दर्शन की दो धाराएं हैं। एक प्रज्ञा-आधारित और दूसरी तर्क-आधारित। उपनिषद काल में इन दोनों धाराओं का संगम पाया जाता है। ये 6 दर्शन शास्त्र दो-दो के जोड़े में तीन वर्गों का प्रतिनिधित्व करते हैं। न्याय-वैशेषिक, सांख्य-योग एवं मीमांसा-वेदांत। काय सम्प्रदाय में देखा जाये तो इन गो के अतिरिक्त एक अतिरिक्त अध्याय और जुड़ गया है प्रायोगिक प्रमाण आधार जिसमें विभिन्न चिकित्सक रोगानुसार images, videos और अन्य investigation reports भी देने लगे।*

*भगवान वेदव्यास और उनके शिष्य जैमिनी ऋषि ने वेदों को सही ढंग से समझाने के लिए ‘पूर्व मीमांसा और ‘उत्तर मीमांसा या ‘वेदांत या ‘ब्रह्मसूत्र लिखे जो प्रज्ञा-आधारित हैं। शेषचारों पूर्णतया तर्क-आधारित हैं। न्याय सूत्र एवं वैशेषिक दर्शन में सृष्टि का मूल कारण अणुओं का मिश्रण माना गया है। उन्होंने अणुओं से निर्मित तत्वों, उनकी विशेषताएं तथा उनके अंतर्संबंध की व्याख्या प्रस्तुत की है। सांख्य-योग सूत्र में प्रकृति और पुरुषके द्वैतवाद को मान्यता दी गई है। सांख्य दर्शन में ब्रह्म द्वारा माया से उत्पन्न संसार एवं उससे परे दिव्यता के बारे में व्याख्या की गई। इसमें समझाया गया कि संपूर्ण संसार माया से उत्पन्न है और उससे मोह न कर, उससे परे दिव्यता प्राप्त करने का प्रयास करना चाहिए क्योंकि वही परमानंद का स्रोत है। योग सूत्र में अज्ञान, अहंकार, मोह, घृणा और मृत्युभय से मन को दूर रखकर सुख प्राप्त करने तथा प्राण ऊर्जा के माध्यम से मन एवं काया को शुद्ध रखकर मोक्ष प्राप्त करने का मार्ग बताया गया है। पूर्व मीमांसा में मनन-चिंतन के माध्यम से वेदों की उचित व्याख्या की गई है।*

*यह ईश्वर प्राप्ति पर प्रकाश नहीं डालता परंतु धर्म पथ के माध्यम से जीवन में सुख पाने का मार्ग बताता है।आयुर्वेद और जिन गुरूजनों से हमने इसका ज्ञान प्राप्त किया उन्होने इसके साथ ही आरोग्य ही मूल है और उसका ज्ञान आयुर्वेद से ही प्राप्त होगा यह बताया।*

*उत्तर मीमांसा (वेदांत या ब्रह्मसूत्र) में यह गुप्त रहस्य उदघाटित किया गया है कि ब्रह्म ही पूर्ण है, दिव्य है और सत, चित्त व आनंद है। वह कृपालु है अत: माया का बंधन छोड़कर उसे सदैव स्मरण रखिए, प्रेम करिए और समर्पणभाव रखिए। उसकी कृपा का अनुभव कर सदैव पूर्ण परम आनंद में रहिए। यही इन 6 दर्शन शास्त्रों का सार है और आयुर्वेद इस मन और शरीर को इस योग्य बनाने हेतु तीन तीन सूत्रों में भी ये ज्ञान देता आ रहा है जैसे 'हेतुलिङ्गौषधज्ञानं स्वस्थातुरपरायणम् त्रिसूत्रं शाश्वतं पुण्यं बुबुधे यं पितामहः' च सू 1/24 यह हेतु- लिंग-औषध ज्ञान भी वहीं से मिला जिसकी चर्चा चल रही है ।*

*समस्त जीवन द्रव्यों में ही व्यतीत होगा तो उसका ज्ञान 'किञ्चिद्दोषप्रशमनं किञ्चिद्धातुप्रदूषणम् स्वस्थवृत्तौ मतं किञ्चित्त्रिविधं द्रव्यमुच्यते' 1/67 भी सरल कर के कि आपने समक्ष द्रव्यों का भंडार है और मन में लोभ उत्पन्न करेंगे पर आपको ज्ञान होना चाहिये कि कौन से दोषों का प्रमन करते हैं, धातुओं को दूषित करते है और कौन से स्वस्थवृत्त के मतानुसार जानें।*

[7/23, 9:27 AM] Dr. Bharat Padhar: 

The treatment which forces Dosha to travel from Koshtha to Shakha i.e Increasing tishnata of Agni, Improper vyayam, hitasya anavacharan, increasing drutata of maruta may act as immunosuppressive.

[7/23, 9:30 AM] Dr. Bharat Padhar:

 Immunosuppression can be correlated with decreased Aturabala, may be due to Prakruti, Saara hinata, Samhama hinata, satva hinata, praman, agara shakti, vyayam shakti etc hinata can cause reduction in Atura bala.

[7/23, 9:33 AM] Dr. Bharat Padhar:

 Improper treatment without understanding disease pathogenesis completely may provide relief in some disease but later produce new disease, some time autoimmune diseases can be seen as an outcome of such improper treatment can be due to immunosuppressive effect of improper treatment...

[7/23, 9:34 AM] Vaidya Shrikrishna Khandel Sir: 

प्रवृत्तिरुभयस्य तु is an important aspect in context to 

Gurupoornima and 

Immunology

Guru gets tarpan by shishya jigyasa and constant sublimation

Thus the shishya create Guru 

Fortunately I found many noble shishya which made my gurudom 

I salute them all with love and heartfelt blessings

Like wise immunology kriya and pratikriya make increase and decrease together at different molecular level 

Suppression is fairly defined in ch su 21/ 5 

Medsa aavrit margtwat sandhukhan pachan and avshoshan 

When attacks are severe and regular army is inadequate than the army deployment from next post is sometime necessary to conquer the local situation 

This is the strategy used for consolidated immune at one place but this should be for short term other wise general immunology will collapse

[7/23, 9:42 AM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Rogaatikarshana is major cause of immunosuppression and Rogaatikarshana is also cause of vaata prakopa , kapha is told as praakrita bala, kapha kshaya is an other cause of immunosuppression as well vaata prakopa.. Here , after use of immunosuppressants, a clinical scenario is manifested for that our target is to work on vaata and kapha .. One must think that everything is well described in Ayurveda, the concern is to deal those principles as per modern existing diseases..

[7/23, 9:42 AM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Rightly said Dr Bharat

[7/23, 9:43 AM] Dr. Bharat Padhar: 

🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/23, 9:47 AM] Dr. Bharat Padhar:

 If we see the process of immunosuppression in western medical science, its cause quite seems to be similar as 9 component of Aturabala. 

Prakriti, sara, samhanana, satva, satmya,aharshakti , vyayam shakti, pramaan and vaya. Normalcy of all these are cause of good Aturabala or immunity and abnormality mainly decrease causes immunosuppression.

[7/23, 10:05 AM] Dr. Bharat Padhar: 

For immunosuppressive effect,

Prakruti- Genetic defects and dvadvaj Prakruti

Reduced saara: Less production of immune cells and molecules

Abnormal Samhana: Improper nutrition

Alpa satva- Altered psychic and higher functions of brain required for immune response,

Alpa Satmya- Use of continuous  immune triggering drugs and foods,

Decreased vyayam Shakti- Results in altered metabolism and excretion of metabolic waste products resulting in various diseases,

Reduced Abhayaran and Jaran Shakti- results in less nutrition to immune components required for efficient response,

Vaya- Age specifically old age may be more prone for such immuno suppression induced disease.

[7/23, 10:13 AM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

Sadar pranam guruji ji , ch.soo.21/5 is perfect reference to enlighten us about suppression.. मेदसेत्यादौ वायोरनतिवृद्धत्वेनाग्निसन्धुक्षकत्वं , यतोऽतिवृद्धो हि वैषम्यं वह्ने: करोति वायु: . स इति मेदस्वी.. आचार्य चक्रपाणि..

एक इसी प्रकार का मेदस्वी Cushing's syndrome में मिलता है; इस रुग्ण में hypermetabolic state & immunosuppression दोनो ही मिलता है  , यूं कहूं तो मेदस्वी की तरह यह रुग्ण भी लक्षण/व्याधि समुच्चय युक्त होता है.

मेदस्वी और अतिकृश दोनो में ही immunosuppression की स्थिति मिलती है जिसके कारण से - सततं व्याधितावेतावतिस्थूलकृशौ नरौ. *च.सू.२१/१६*

*आज भी आदरणीय गुरु जी एक अति उच्चकोटि का ज्ञान हमें दे दिए , आभार आदरणीय श्री गुरुदेव का जिन्होंने मुझे आयुर्वेद के सिद्धान्तो समझने योग्य बनाया.*

[7/23, 10:18 AM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha:

 Perfect scientific interpretation of immunosuppression, Rajayakshma is one of examples, even kshayaja kaasa and kshataksheena/urahkshat are complicated in Rajayakshma if not treated well shows the role of immunocompromised conditions may lead to secondary infections..

Thanks Dr Bharat for your approach..

[7/23, 10:25 AM] Dr. D. C. Katoch sir: 

All these factors adversely affect Dhatu Nirman- Poshan leading to Oja haani. In principle  Oja haani is not immunosuppression.

[7/23, 10:30 AM] Dr. Bharat Padhar:

 Yes sir...These factors leads to Ojahani but simultaneously they also adversely affect the immune functions and immune regulatory mechanism... which can be considered as immunosuppressive effect...This is my humble suggestion...May be wrong....🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/23, 10:45 AM] Dr. Bharat Padhar: 

The prevailing paradigm regarding the mechanisms of action of immunosuppressants is that they all function to prevent allograft rejection by preventing/inhibiting cell activation, cytokine production, differentiation, and/or proliferation. One hypothesis, albeit provocative, is that some of the immunosuppressants might function by stimulating the expression of immunosuppressive molecules and/or cells

[7/23, 10:51 AM] Dr. Bharat Padhar:

 Inhibition of

cell activation- Srotorodh or Avaran

Cytokine productions - Improper Dhatu Nirman and 

Inhibition of cell defferentiation and proliferation - Abnormal functions of prakruta Vata and Kapha at Dhatu level.

Stimulation of expression of immunosuppressive molecules- Agni mandhya and Ama utpati at Dhatu level.

[7/23, 10:54 AM] Dr. Bharat Padhar: 

Root cause of all these is 9 factors as mentioned above.

[7/23, 11:00 AM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha: 

*आहारसंभवं वस्तु रोगाश्चाहार संभवा: , च.सू.२८/४५*

Nutritionists must formulate diets that supply adequate amounts of nutrients from five major groups. These are carbohydrate, protein (amino acids), fat, minerals and vitamins. Carbohydrate is usually a cheaper source of energy than fat, but fat is often used to increase the caloric concentration of the diet. Variations in energy intake which may effect immunocompetence usually result from management practices rather than diet formulation. Feed restriction for broiler breeders and withholding feed in forced molting practices may affect immunocompetence. Feed restriction causes higher plasma corticosterone levels, which are known to decrease the immune response, possibly through effects on cytokines. Excessive feed, through forced feeding, may also have short-term effects on indicators of humoral immunity. Protein and amino acid nutrition have been studied in relation to immunocompetence. The level of dietary amino acid needed to maximize growth and feed efficiency will also generally maximize measures of immunocompetence. The level of amino acids needed for maximum growth is lower in chicks which have been immunologically stressed than in chicks which have not. An immune response changes metabolism so that less growth occurs, thereby decreasing the need for amino acids. Dietary levels of minerals can affect immunocompetence. While deficient levels of sodium and chloride decrease humoral immunity, levels of these nutrients which supported maximum growth also supported maximal humoral immunity. Low dietary zinc levels did not affect indicators of immunocompetence in the chick. The effect of fat soluble vitamin levels on the immune system has been studied. Vitamin A is needed to maintain epithelial tissue and prevent infection. Cellular immune response is decreased when the chick is deficient in this nutrient. Several indicators of immune responsiveness are depressed when chicks are vitamin E and/or selenium deficient. Since these nutrients serve as antioxidants, cellular integrity may be affected by a deficiency. Cellular integrity is very important for receiving, and responding to the messages needed to coordinate an immune response. High levels of vitamin E (greater than 10 times the required level) have been found to be immunostimulatory.

[7/23, 11:00 AM] Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha:

 I am agreed with your approach

[7/23, 11:02 AM] Dr. Bharat Padhar:

 धन्यवाद गुरुवर्य। आप सब गुरुजनों से प्राप्त हुआ ज्ञान ही है यह सब।🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

[7/23, 12:17] Prof. Gurdeep Singh Ji: 

immunosuppressed

Having a weakened immune system. People who are immunosuppressed have a reduced ability to fight infections and other diseases. This may be caused by certain diseases or conditions, such as  AIDS, cancer, diabetes, malnutrition, and certain genetic disorders. It may also be caused by certain medicines or treatments, such as anticancer drugs, radiation therapy, and stem cell or organ transplant. Also called immunocompromised.

[7/23, 12:22] Dr. Shailendra Mehta, Chandigarh: 

🙏🏻🙏🏻ParamGuruG,,,

Is it possible with...Ayurvedic medicine also...(sorry to restart this concluded(somewhat)topic),

[7/23, 12:40] Prof. Gurdeep Singh Ji: 

Immunsuppressives are not used in medical practice but immuno promoter or immunomoduletor such as Ramayana and some Vajikaran drugs.

[7/23, 13:03] Prof. Gurdeep Singh Ji: 

I have worked on various types of useful effects of Ramayana in promoting impunity and correcting autoimmune diseases as well as adjuvent with Ayurveda and some modern drugs since 1978. Many raw rasa aushadh may have such effect which are removed by Shoshana maran processes.Some plants may have such toxic effects but I have no experience.

[7/23, 13:08] Dr. Shailendra Mehta, Chandigarh: 

Many thanks for your kind and encouraging words Sir,,,Sorry to bother you...Thanks again💐💐

[7/23, 13:08] Prof. Gurdeep Singh Ji: 

Rasayana and immunity and not impunity shodhan. These mistakes were due to computer.

[7/23, 13:25] Dr Shekhar Singh Rathoud: 

in organ transplant and autoimmune diseases... immunosuppressants are used.... No ??

[7/23, 13:31] Dr. Shailendra Mehta, Chandigarh: 

Sir, in ayurvedic context only...Pls go through an exhaustive discussion done in this elite group on this topic for 8 days...Started from 12 july..It will certainly help...

[7/23, 13:55] Prof. Gurdeep Singh Ji: 

God may bless you all with health wealth happiness and longevity.

Dr. Shailendra !

[7/24, 19:05] Prof. Surendra A. Soni: 

          [7/22, 23:23] pawan madan Dr: 

Wonderfully incorporated many important point.

The closest would be kshar and lawan, still they are only closest just for discussion.

*(Right Sir ! Kshar & Lavan are not humoral substance like steroids, that  chemically synthesized humoral analogue. Discussed Immunosuppressant action may be devided into 2 parts.*

*1. Generalized- 

like Dr. Bharat, Prof. Gururaja Sir, Raghu Sir and others are describing, in context to natural immune* *response weakened because of 'balahani' in generalized manner. This weak immune response is not* *immunosuppressant action actually. But it may be called in broader perspective because when we are observing/selecting to interpret an event/action within a complex chain of events/actions. Then such well described /established / documented term generally used. I may not be 100% correct but not incorrect too.*

*Ayurved doesn't describe the immune components separately like modern science does, so this is the reason that various types of confusions are always there and it will be continue in future too.*

*2. Specifically-*

*Steroids are not freely present in the nature. They are present in form of compounds in plants too as Prof. Mamata ji mentioned.*

*Immunosuppressant action of such plants are also not seen similar to steroids because nature has bound them in such a complexity that it doesn't show selective/specific action like chemical analogue.)*

_____________________

 In practice they wont act like immunosuppresant, though they may have many untoward bad effects which indirectly may reflect the immunosuppresant action, but then also they cant be applied as immunosuppresants are used in situaitions like kidney transplant.*

_____________________

*(Rightly pointed out as discussed above as generalized as well as specific or selective.)*

_____________________

But you have raised many imp principles in one line.

I really appreciate the way you explain and discuss.

_____________________

*Pawan Sir !*

*Thank you very much Sir !!*

🙏🏻🌹

[7/24, 19:17] D C Katoch Sir: 

Smasti samayojit vichar as put forth by Dr Pawan are needed to understand Ayurvedic concepts/terminology rather than interpreting them in bits & pieces like elements of conventional knowledge. Kudos to Dr Pawan, we are proud and privileged to have him in the group. May recall I had proposed his inclusion in Kayasampradaye perhaps in 2017-18. Cheers and blessings 🪴🪴!!!

[7/24, 22:11] Prof. Surendra A. Soni: 

Yes Sir !

He concluded raktaj pravahika/atisar (UC) discussion very well as per your instructions. It's available on KC blog.

I say sorry if I have mentioned irrelevant things in my post. 

Pranam Resp. Katoch Sir !!!

🙏🏻🌹

[7/25, 06:28] pawan madan Dr: 

Good mng.

👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

Aptly described. As the point of concern and discussion was....immunosuppresant in ayurveda which could work to suppress the suppress the various chemical componants of immune reactions specifically.

Thanks Soni Sir !..🙏

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Above discussion held on 'Kaysampraday"(Discussion) a Famous WhatsApp-discussion-group  of  well known Vaidyas from all over the India. 

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ShrDadaji Ayurveda & Panchakarma Center,

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Edited by

Prof. Surendra A. Soni

M.D., PhD (KC) 

Head

P.G. DEPT. OF KAYACHIKITSA

Govt. Akhandanand Ayurveda College

Ahmedabad, GUJARAT, India.

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