WhatsApp Discussion Series 36: Discussion on 'Niruh-vasti-matra(Dose)' by Dr. Santosh Chavhan, Dr. Anupama Patra, Prof. Sanjay Lungare, Vd. Ranga Prasad Bhat, Prof. D.S. Mishra, Dr. Mayur Surana & Vd. Raghuram Bhatta

[4/28, 21:54] Bhavesh Patil Dr : 

Very nice information 

I have one query about niruha basti.

What should be the quantity of bastidrava in total?

Bcoz in above document...almost all niruha drava quantity is about 440-500 ml. Is it sufficient?

Experts please guide about the same 

[4/28, 22:28] Prof. Daya Shankar Mishra Sir: 

450-550 ml. 

It is sufficient quantity.

[4/28, 23:54] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

I never think it is sufficient. As per literature 1200 ml is for madhyam pramaan vyakti. Practically also I ve seen the used of same matra. It should be at least 750 -850 ml otherwise due to heen maatra we maynot get desirable effect.

[4/29, 00:12] J. Hebbar Dr: 

Has there any clinical research work done to show that a niruha basti quantity below 750 ml is useless?

[4/29, 00:17] S A Soni: 

Yes !! 450 ml. to 550 ml.

Usually sufficient.

[4/29, 00:23] S A Soni: 

Yes it can be extended upto 750 ml if needed.... Especially in stambhit bahu dosha condition. Otherwise upto 500 ml is sufficient.

Please Anupama ji !! Better if you guide as per expertise subject.

Dr Santosh Chavhan is HOD of Panchakarm Dept. B V P Pune. He has more than 16 years experience.

He shared as per practical experience.

[4/29, 01:02] Raghuram Dr Banguluru: 

Speaking about *Niruha Vasti*, in my 20 years of practice I have hardly crossed the total quantity of 700 or 750 ml. In most of the cases 550-600 ml will be sufficient. Even when the quantity encroaches 600-650 ml most people start developing the reflux. 

Everything has evolved. The *gut capacity and tolerance* too.

We need to observe that the parameters if assessment hv changed with evolution and we need to keep changing our approach accordingly. *12Prasruta* can never be imagined as a modern day dose. First if all you can't push it in, leave alone the retention time.

The *Samyak maatra* of olden times may be *Atimatra* of modern day. 

I am happy that the *above said quantities have not failed me*, I hv got very good results and zero complications till today.

The spoken of texts and Aaptopadesha, no doubt gives us the basics of practice, but the real practice is what we do on patients and that should follow *Yukti*. 

Those who speak volumes if theory might not understand the real application if practice. Those who really practice will surely accept this. Because *quoting references and practicing are different ball games, they need to be played on different pitches* 

Patients don't understand theory or shlokas!!

Disclaimer - This is my opinion based on my *situational understanding and practice of Ayurveda* for the past 20years. Not to offend anyone. 

[4/29, 04:32] Bhavesh Patil Dr: 

Even I prefer to use more quantity when intented for pakwashayagata dosha nirharan. But if experts say it's sufficient as per their experience; I accept and respect their opinion and would definitely try to implement same in future. 

[4/29, 09:02] Prof. Sanjay Lungare Ji DG:

 

Practical quantification.

[4/29, 10:14] MB Gururaja  Dr: Agreed.

[4/29, 10:22] Ajay navale dr: 

I have also got better results with max 750 ml basti, though i have used around 900 ml as well, but never did i use beyond 900 ml

[4/29, 16:45] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

 

Excuse me sir ,I never consider panchkarma as a separate speciality. No any speciality can be said as complete without panchkarma.

Though I ve less experience but I am not telling theoretically only. I  always prefer around 1000 ml matra in niruha. Have not seen any complications due to this matra till date.

हीनमात्रावुभौ बस्ती नातिकार्यकरौ मतौ।(सु. ची.36/18)

As per the literature some result may missed due to less matra. Many places 1000 matra also being used.

If we apply sufficient matra definitely chances of complications may be there ,that's why it has been cleared in the starting in upakalpaniya adhyaay. That's why management for complications also described. My aim is we should try to experience the real said effect of vasti.

As it was a discussion topic, being a clinician I told my opinion . In govt hospital comparative study may be done for this. Due to kaal prabhaav nothing is going perfect in ayurveda. As time is changing we also may change ourselves towards a perfection. 

I ve zero ego. I will become very happy if u or someone else  point out my fault instead of making barrier for speciality. I ve interest to understand complete ayurveda what i have studied incompletely during my bams. I may practice in my subject only.

ज्यादा ज्ञान अर्जन में मुझे कोई बुराई नहीं लग रही है। एक bams डॉक्टर अगर सब चिकित्सा कर सकता है तो क्या एक specialist सारे शास्त्र को समझ नहीं सकता?

Excuse me sir if I am telling anything wrong.

[4/29, 17:29] Mayur Surana Dr. AP: 

Infact , vaagbhat advocates स्वयमेव निवृत्ते तु द्वितीयो बस्तिरिष्यते..तृतीयो-चतुर्थोपि...

Untill सुनिरुढ लक्षण are observed , considering bala we should give Niruha...

As per experience Dwiputak basti of 720 ml each is found to be quite effective...

In fact many times एकं त्रीन वा बलासे...likewise rather than yogbasti krama even 2-3 bastis but given by this method help a lot...

[4/29, 17:40] Prof. Sanjay Lungare Ji DG: 

बहुत सुंदर

आचार्य मयुर जी।

 *Infact , vaagbhat advocates स्वयमेव निवृत्ते तु द्वितीयो बस्तिरिष्यते..तृतीयो-चतुर्थोपि... Untill सुनिरुढ लक्षण* 

इसी में उत्तर छुपा है।

पर उसके लिए आचार्य सुश्रुत के संदर्भ देखें।

[4/29, 18:03] Mayur Surana Dr. AP: Yes sir

[4/29, 18:05] Mayur Surana Dr. AP: 

Kala krama yoga basti is not meant for vyadhi! ( a bit bold but referential statement ) In vyadhi, Niruha is to be done until Sunirudhata! 1 or 2 or more putaka at once. No anuvasan in between.

Then Sadyo Nirudha Anuvasya!

Like given in early part of Cha Si 1. 20 to 24.

Kaal etc. krama does not expect Sunirudhata as it is pradhan karma of Anuvasan or Sneha basti and not Niruha. Ref. Su Chi 37/76 Dalhan teeka.

Thats why Niruha is only meant for Naikam Atisheelayet logic i.e. to prevent dosha utkleshjanya vyapat because of continuation of Sneha Basti. 

Therefore these Niruha are supposed to be Yapan Jati. Eg. Yapan, Madhutailik etc. where single putak are preferred , elsewehere in vyaadhit Dwiputak-Triputak classical niruha etc. till sunirudhta

[4/29, 18:07] J K Pandey Dr. Lukhnau: 

Another interesting aspect sir.. 

[4/29, 22:18] Prof. Sanjay Lungare Ji DG:

 

अवान्तर लिख रहा हूं पर क्षमा करें। रहा नहीं गया।

उपरोक्त टिप्पणियां पढ़ने के बाद ऐैसा लगा कि हम सब श्रद्धालु है, वैज्ञानिक कतई नहीं।

*सर, विनम्रता के साथ निवेदन है कि यह असम्भव है। आयुर्वेद के बहुत से सूक्ष्म भावों का वर्तमान साइंस की तकनीकों द्वारा प्रमाणीकरण असम्भव है।*

बहुत सारी चीज़ें उन्होंने खोजी है। पर हम ही हैं कि उन्हें आज तक समझ नहीं पाये है।

अव्यक्त, त्रिगुण, पन्चतन्मात्रा, पन्चमहाभूत, मूलप्रकृति, पुरूष आदि के बारे में बहुत research मिलते हैं।

E.q.

in every electromagnetic radiation; three types of rotations present like Magnetic field rotation, electric field rotation and linear frequency.

These three rotations are our त्रिगुण *( गुणत्रयप्रभेदेन .. स्पनदनत्रयम )* । यह केवल ऐक झलकि मात्र है। But at this moment and on this practical clinical group, I think they don't have any role. So I can't give details about them.

 *चार लाख आयुर्वेदाचार्य स्वयं ही अनेक बिंदुओं पर एक मत नही हैं।* 

वर्तमान में उपलब्ध शास्त्र अनेक जगह खंडित है, सामग्री पूर्ण विश्लेषणार्थ अल्प है *( ये मेरे निजी विचार है।)* 

For proper understanding root book of other branches are not available. Those available;  ( वेद, उपनिषद, ज्योतिष, आरण्यक ) we don't want to go through it. We always thought our available samhita are complete. बस हमें और कहि देखना ही नहीं। 

और सबसे बड़ी और अहम बात, हम आयुर्वेदजन चर्चा में ही सारी शक्ति गंवा बैठते है। 

 We always try to find ref in our classical text after someone,other than Ayurveda who discovered something valuable to claim it's existence rather giving credit to them.

 *और यदि  किसी प्रकार सम्भव होकर वही तथ्य प्रमाणित हो तो फिर अनावश्यक रूप से श्रम और समय व्यर्थ करने की क्या आवश्यकता है।* 

If we think that reestablishment of our basic principles is useless in terms of vesting our time and labor.

Then 

Quatation given by आचार्य सुश्रुत,

 *' धान्येषु मांसेषु फलेषु चैन शाकेषु चानुक्तमिहाप्रमेयात्। आस्वादतो भूतगणैश्च मत्वा तदादिशेद् द्रव्यमनल्पबुद्धि: । सु सू ४६/३३१* 

Is useless.

[4/30, 06:14] Rameshwar Rao Rane Mu: 

[4/30, 07:17] Hariomgupta ji dr: उत्तम विचार सर जी 

[4/30, 08:23] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

 धन्यबाद सर आपने सुश्रुत के सन्दर्भ देखने के लिए बोले। मैंने देखा भी। स्वयमेव विवृत्त एक सन्दर्भ में लिखा है अगर बैठकर वस्ति दिया जाय तो।

Untill sunirudha का रेफरेन्स चरक सुश्रुत में नहीं पा रही हूँ ?कृपिया ये सन्दर्भ किसीको मिले तो बताने का कास्ट करें?

क्यों निकल आता है इसका वर्णन भी वाग्भट्ट में नहीं पा रही हूँ?

इसका मतलब तो येही समझ में आरही है कि एक वस्ति अपना थोड़ा काम करके जल्दी निकल आये तो फिरसे वस्ति देना है। जो वाग्भट्ट ने बताये हैं इसतरह जरुरत पड़े तो 3-4 निरुह तक दिया जा सकता है। क्या इसमें उपद्रव की ज्यादा चान्सेस नहीं है?

कृपिया मार्ग दर्शन करें?

[4/30, 10:13] MB Gururaja  Dr: Perfect 

[4/30, 10:45] Prof. Sanjay Lungare Ji DG:

 

 *अनेन विधिना बस्तिं दद्याद्बस्तिविशारद: ।। द्वितीयं वा तृतीयं वा चतुर्थं वा यथार्थत: ।। सु  चि ३८/६* 

यहां *विकल्प* तन्त्रयुक्ति है तथा *यथार्थत:* शब्द पर भी ध्यान दें। जिसका मतलब *युक्ति* आधार पर *सब कुछ हम पर ही निर्भर है।*

 सम्यक निरुढ तक बस्ति दान बताया गया है।

 *सम्यङ्निरुढलिंगङ्गे तु प्राप्ते बस्तिं निवारयेत।। सु चि ३८/७* 

पर हमेशा हीनक्रम को प्रधानता दी गयी है।

 *अपि हीनक्रमं कुर्यान्न तु कुर्यादतिक्रमम्। ७* 

 *ततो नेत्रमपनीय त्रिंशन्मात्रा: पीडनकालादुपेक्ष्योत्तिष्ठेत्यातुरं ब्रूयात्। ५* 

अब इतने कम समय में १०००/१२०० ml की मात्रा प्रविष्टि होना practically not possible.

So amount of basti said by our panchakarma expertise is *युक्तिसंगत* 

I hope this will clear your query about amount of ayurvedic enema.

सभी पन्चकर्म वैद्यों से मैं क्षमा चाहता हूं की यह मेरा कार्यक्षेत्र न होते हुए भी इसपर लिखने का दु:साहस किया।

क्षमस्व

[4/30, 11:18] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

Thank u sir. Mein ispe aage apna vichaar jarur vyakt karungi. 

Baaki acharya se bhi nivedan   sushrut ebam Vagbhatt ke in shlok ke vich mein antar hai ya samaan hai ,ispe apna mantavya pradaan karein.?

[4/30, 11:44] Prof. Sanjay Lungare Ji DG: 

मॅडम,

चर्चा गलत दिशा में मार्गक्रमित हो रही है।

हिंदी भाषांतर न देखें।

श्लोक क्रं ४७-४८ के साथ वाक्य योजना *( योग तन्त्रयुक्ति )* करें तभी you will get exact about similarity and dissimilarity.

[4/30, 12:20] Prof. Daya Shankar Mishra Sir: 

मैने कल भी कहा था निरूह बस्ति की मात्रा 450 ml से 500ml ही प्रयुक्त की जाती है, अधिक मात्रा देने पर व्यापद होने की संभावना  हमेशा रहती है, ऐसा प्रत्यक्ष अनुभव  है

[4/30, 12:46] S A Soni: 

In a current era of specialization and as per current legal perspective specialization does matter Anupama ji.

Specialization barrier was respected by punarvasu aatreya also.

'Brahm-samhita' or Indra might have not followed.

I respect and salute your courage and experience. Denying with the statement only is not merely sufficient in vaidya sabha. If possible please provide adequate details of diseases as diseased where you used 1000/1200 ml vasti. I know that panchakarma can't be separated from ashtanga ayurved. If you have used said vasti in shalakya diseases then it's a very good achievement and new message for all. As per experts zero complication practice should be preferred because a single complication may ruined your prestige. Only the quantity of vasti is not the guarantee of success in treatment. There are so many other factors are also equally important concerned to preparation, timing, drugs as well as patient that you know. 

I had to comment that because your inputs was overtaking the practical experience based criteria of successful panchakarma experts. It was giving a different message to youngsters. It's appreciable to take more knowledge. Inter -diciplinary system is adopted to find new areas to develop for the science as well as practice. 

If you can establish the classical vasti matra with criteria as well indications then it will be a your contribution to the ayurved society. I hope that all panchakarma experts will learn/understand the lost practice. 

I endorse the experience shared by raghu sir that classical vasti dose reflux during administration.

Thanks madam for your inputs regarding classical vasti matra practice.

[4/30, 12:55] Prof. Sanjay Lungare Ji DG: 

Nice explanation.

आचार्य जी।

[4/30, 13:01] Vd Ranga Prasad Ji Chennai:

  Valid point. Samaskritam ko Samaskrit kā sīmā par hi dekhnā avashya phaldāyak aur nissandeha jnān ko dengā. 

[4/30, 13:02] S A Soni: 

हमें कुछ नए प्रात्यक्षिक अनुभव मिले तो अच्छा ही है गुरूजी ।

[4/30, 13:04] S A Soni: शास्त्रीय संदर्भ के लिए हार्दिक आभार और नमन आचार्य जी ।।

[4/30, 13:12] Vd Ranga Prasad Ji Chennai: 

Another person upon whose extempore quoting ability, the envy surfacing from within. 

Bowing my head to your sharp intellect too, Lungare ji. 

Samhita and siddhāntās are the lungs of jnāna providing sustainability of prāna of jnāna aa it's nutrient. 

You got the *Lungs* in your name and in your execution of quotes at appropriate times in keeping the debate live, fresh and for further deep plunging into deep thinking. 

Though you have by vinamrata quoted that you have explained out of the purview of PK discipline not belonging to you, Samhita and any other branches cannot be separated due to the samavāyi sambandh. 

Hats off to you too *Lung* ji. 

[4/30, 13:15] S A Soni: 

Rightly said !!

My proud senior !!

[4/30, 13:32] Vd Ranga Prasad Ji Chennai: 

[4/30, 14:04] J K Pandey Dr. Lukhnau: 

नमन है सर आपको  ।। मैं आवाक हूँ ।।सम्मान् और प्रशंसाभाव से युक्त ।सिद्धान्तों की सिद्धि कर रखी है आपने ।।just awesome sir..

[4/30, 14:47] Prof. Sanjay Lungare Ji DG:

 

After reading your words from heart, I became speechless. Yet, I am unable to get proper words to express my gratitude.

 *Your high gravity appreciation helps me to firm my feet always on the ground.* 

I am not special one. 

Nothing is mine.

[4/30, 18:45] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

सर चर्चा गलत दिशा में नहीं जाएगा।

चर्चा का उद्द्येश्य गलत रहेगी तभी गलत दिशा लेगी। 

इस परिप्रेक्ष में मेरा समझ में गलती थी। एक दिन में 3-4 निरुह की कल्पना मैंने कभी नहीं की थी। क्यों की एक दिन में एक ही निरुह के बारेमें मैंने सुना था तथा देखि भी हूँ। 

सर आप को तथा मयूरसुरण सर जी को में धन्यबाद देना चाहूंगी ,यह प्रसंग उठाने के वजह से मेरा एक बड़ा कांसेप्ट क्लियर हुआ। में समझती थी महर्षि सुश्रुत के हिसाब से एक बार वस्ति योजना में ज्यादा से ज्यादा 4 निरुह का इस्तेमाल करना चाहिए।

पर में गलत थी। सुश्रुत और वाग्भट्ट के यह प्रसंग समानार्थक है।

[4/30, 19:30] santosh Chavhan dr: 

Regarding the post of my senior *Lungareji* I want to add some things and also agreed *Dr Anupamaji*. Triputak basti should be given till the samayak lakshanas. , Which are the lakshanas by Sushrut? Apart from Vatanuloman, sukhen malapravriti other symptoms like *Viktatata* mean pavitratata and *manatushti* are also there. For samayak lakshanas other factors are also responsible. Making of basti  sufficient quantity of Honey should be added. Honey is proven surfectutant  mean solution stabilizer and sequential mixing. Regarding quantity one should follow Sarangdhara samhita the most recent which precisely mentioned Mana paribhasha. Uttam 800 ml ( 80 tola) , 64 Tola and 48 Tola ..Approx 800ml/ 650ml/ 500 ml depending upon the condition and Bala of the patient. Practically 650 ml Basti practiced. How much deep u have to insert? Should be more than 7.5 cm . Why since rectum highly supplied with nerve fibre .. Even a  drop of basti in rectal region immediately start defecation reflex. *Inference* early pratygam not necessarily related with the quantity even 350-400 ml basti .. If red rubber catheter/ basti netra. not inserted more than 7.5 cm may lead to early pratygam. Hence inference- Putak method with Netra sheshtha. Another thing the Basti should given in *Trishansha Matra* 30-45 sec ..Means bit fast ... For better evacuation. Hence *Putak method sheshtha*. Conclusion. 1. Basti pratygam doesn't depend upon the quantity since the capacity of large intestine is 5 litre in left lateral postion( descending colon capacity 1200ml )  and patient above 6 ft . 1000 ml basti can be safely given. 2. Basti should be given fast by Putak method in 30-45 sec. 3. One should not stick to 960 ml since Acharya mentioned *prasritik* praman Basti I.e. from 5 prasritik etc​ which quantity is 400 ml. 4. Follow Sarangdhara samhita since it's quantity is more acceptable and practical Bei g most recent Grantha. Since average height except Punjab Haryana is 5 ft 7 - 5 ft 9 inches in male and 5- 5 ft 4 inches in female hence Sarangdhara samhita Matra most suitable. Every time 1000ml basti not possible. Only in Punjab Haryana male patient u may give 1000ml. 6. Considering all variable one may give Basti and strict *SOP* Basti insertion, lukewarm and time , Putak method should be followed

[4/30, 19:33] Vd Ranga Prasad Ji Chennai: 

Your explanation  sound meaningful sir. 

[4/30, 19:35] S A Soni: 

[4/30, 19:45] Amit Rai Dr CCRAS: 

Thank you chavhan sir for your precise interpretation of this topic

[4/30, 19:49] santosh Chavhan dr: 

Getting appreciation from Ranga Sir

[4/30, 19:54] santosh Chavhan dr: 

Even Kalka Dravya also important for better absorption

[4/30, 19:59] Vd Ranga Prasad Ji Chennai:

  Sir, I'm just small pipilika when compared  to the giant mammoths who are successful as karmashresta chikitsaks, doing yeoman service to humanity through Ayurveda. 

I humbly deny the importance being  given to my appreciation. 

[4/30, 19:59] Prof. Sanjay Lungare Ji DG:

 

Complete hi- light on subject by बस्तिं विशारद 

आचार्य चव्हाण जी।

[4/30, 20:01] santosh Chavhan dr: 

Tourch bearer .  Knowing​ little bit 

[4/30, 20:01] Vd Ranga Prasad Ji Chennai: 

Basti puțaka is where the secret of synchronisation of basti dāna wsrt timing of 45 seconds lies. And you highlighted that point amicably.

[4/30, 20:02] santosh Chavhan dr: 

Direct relationship of Quantity and pratygam is also not true

[4/30, 20:05] Vd Ranga Prasad Ji Chennai: 

The nerve sensitivity of the rectum is the point which holds key in pratyagama status.

Only  hence Ācāryās have provided the knowledge of instrumentation with dvikarnikā. And also have specified by highlighting the bastinetradoșās.

[4/30, 20:08] Vd Ranga Prasad Ji Chennai: 

Adherence of fecal matters  in prabhūta quantity over the sigmoid colon may be another mechanical factor  influencing pratyāgama of  basti  dravya, in the initial days of basti course...? ! 

[4/30, 20:15] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

Thank u very much sir for highlighting the subject with perfect explanation.

[4/30, 22:06] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

  that means proper mala suddhi in the morning may not be there .

[4/30, 23:54] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

Sir i think here 30 matra is not vasti daan kaal but time between introducing vasti to raising from bed, that explained in the hindi vyakshya

[5/1, 10:28] Prof. Sanjay Lungare Ji DG:

 

 *This is totally theorotical explanation.*

आचार्य सुश्रुत told that said procedure of basti administration used by mainstream of *बस्तिविशारद*।

This indicates that  mainstream of other branches were present. *He gave credit to them by quoting their procedure.*  As this procedure is not of आचार्य सुश्रुत , we have to go through original root book but at this moment we don't have it. 

But thanks to commentator डल्हण जी who read that root book of *आचार्य पराशर* and write about 30 matra in his commentary. 

According to आचार्य पराशर *100 matra* is the *बस्तिपीडन काल* not 30 matra then *why आचार्य सुश्रुत quoted wrong time for  बस्तिपीडन काल ?* 

To explain reason behind, two different recognition by two different traditions had been used by डल्हण जी as follows,

 *1.100 matra divided as follows*

*30 for मृदु कोष्ठ*

*70 for मध्य कोष्ठ*

*100 for क्रुर कोष्ठ*

*In above reference by आचार्य सुश्रुत 30 matra is for मृदु कोष्ठ hence it is not against root शास्त्र।* 

 *2. 30 matra is for squeezing of बस्तिपुटक + remaining 70 matra is up to raising from bed. So again this is also not against root science Basti as it takes total of 100 matra.* 

So your thinking of 30 matra kaal is time between introducing vasti to raising from bed is not correct. 

 *30 is specially for पीडनकाल and after that reaming 70 matra is up to raising from bed.*

This is not mine . Credit should be given to commentator डल्हण जी and आचार्य पराशर. 

 *Irrespective of correctness reading commentary is healthy for brain.*

Hope you will get your answer.

[5/1, 10:43] J K Pandey Dr. Lukhnau: 

Another नीर क्षीर विवेचन  ।।

धन्यवाद आचार्य ।।

[5/1, 11:45] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

 

Sir I want to express some point regarding my understanding about samhita so that it will be helpful to reduce  the gap of misunderstanding between us. 

Charaksamhita(a form of agnivesh tantra) and Sushrut samhita are the expression or compilation of direct knowledge gained by them through their gurus. They have not manipulated anything after doing their practicals.l after they may have practically applied every thing as such. It is our interpretation only that Ayurveda has been developed through trial method. So though sushrut samhita is a shalya pradhaan tantra which was not fulfilled in Charak samhita, it has covered all other branches of ayurveda also. It is clearly understandable from su. su. 1/3 and 29 .We cannot say Sushrut was a shalya visharad only. Every branch has been advised in sushrut samhita. It has been established in our mind because modern people have accepted him as father of surgery. Actually father of everything is god Brahma.

In su. Su. 24/3

It has been written that 

तत्र शस्त्र साध्येषु स्नेहादि क्रिया न प्रतिषिद्ध्यते ।

स्नेहादि क्रिया साध्येषु शस्त्र कर्म न क्रियते।

 So how can we say Sushrut may not have tried panchkarma ?

अगर नहीं भी किये हो तो सुश्रुत संहिता पंचकर्म के लिए या एक वस्तिविशारद बनने के लिए sufficient नहीं है ये कैसे कह सहते हैं?  जब की संपूर्ण ज्ञान उपलब्ध है।

Though I ve not got the chance to try the putak method I belief the old procedure as 100% scientific and best one. so I cannot comment more about the time of 30 maatra. As per the previous shloka na drutam and na vilambitam and as the maatra of vasti dravya is not fixed for everyone,as per my logic there maynot be any fixed time for introducing vastidravya. Now I may wrong but in future I will definitely try the putak method to come to a perfect conclusion of the said shlok.

[5/1, 13:35] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

 @ Surendra Sir's previous post.

In a current era of specialization and as per current legal perspective specialization does matter Anupama ji.

(Ans- yes sir I know the importance of it. But our specializations are mostly due to influence of modern sc that I feel. Otherwise we maynot have devide shalakya into ophthalmo,ent and dentistry. We may devide chakshu,nasa,karna,shiro,mukharog etc or keeping shalakya as a common branch we may consider them as super specialist through PhD. I never think our consideration of panchkarma as separate speciality is a perfect one, it should be attached with every speciality with technician of diploma course)

Specialization barrier was respected by punarvasu aatreya also.

'Brahm-samhita' or Indra might have not followed.

I respect and salute your courage and experience.

(Thank u sir )

Denying with the statement only is not merely sufficient in vaidya sabha.

(You r right sir I should have give the detail at that time,but sorry to say that I am not able to explain everything in time,it is a main cause behind our misunderstanding in maximum cases)

 If possible please provide adequate details of diseases as diseased where you used 1000/1200 ml vasti.

(Ans-Sir since 1.5 yr I ve not tried any vasti I cannot recalling my every trials properly. In short I use to apply madhutailik vasti in adult about 800-900ml for general vaat vridhi in patient or as a preventive procedure during pravrit kaal. I always use madan phal churna in that vasti as per Sushrut. I ve used mustaadi asthapan vssti with naamsaras (1000ml)for patient with retinitis pigmentosa in near to blind stage . Not observed any complication due to maatra. Retention time average 5 mins. Unfortunately I couldnot continue that properly due to problem in maamsaras.

I ve used gomutra lekhan vasti with triphala kwath upto 700-800 ml in adult ,not observed any complication..........etc.

Sir actually I accept the samhita and it's doses also as equally applicable for present era ,so I try to maintain that dose )

I know that panchakarma can't be separated from ashtanga ayurved. If you have used said vasti in shalakya diseases then it's a very good achievement and new message for all . 

(Ans-Sir not only vasti but shodhan has been advised before tarpan and anjan karma for optimum result ,but due to lack of facility not possible every where)

As per experts zero complication practice should be preferred because a single complication may ruined your prestige. 

(Possibility of small complications may be there if we try to prove our science but simultaneously we can manage it through science.I never think we will face such serious complications if we follow our literature. I think govt institution is the better platform for any new trial)

Only the quantity of vasti is not the guarantee of success in treatment. 

(Yes sir but it is also a main factor for getting optimum result)

There are so many other factors are also equally important concerned to preparation, timing, drugs as well as patient that you know. 

I had to comment that because your inputs was overtaking the practical experience based criteria of successful panchakarma experts.

Sorry for that sir ,some time I never got time to present in a well maintained manner, further I will keep it in mind)

It was giving a different message to youngsters. It's appreciable to take more knowledge. Inter -diciplinary system is adopted to find new areas to develop for the science as well as practice.

 (Ans-It is true but yet we are unable to utilize that system properly due to many misconception in our understanding about samhita)

If you can establish the classical vasti matra with criteria as well indications then it will be a your contribution to the ayurved society.

(From my post u might have well assessed about my vast  aim but everything depends on kaal, I am trying to proceed for those aim. I donot know how much life it may need, hope something I can do in this life also with the blessings of lord and gurus and through cooperation of seniors like u.)

 I hope that all panchakarma experts will learn/understand the lost practice. 

(Everyone is knowledgeous but only difference is we have lost the desirable confidence on our own science due to various factors)

I endorse the experience shared by raghu sir that classical vasti dose reflux during administration.

()

Thanks madam for your inputs regarding classical vasti matra practice.

()

[5/1, 13:42] J. Hebbar Dr: 

Unless scientifically proven that a 750 ml or lower dose of niruha is inefficient in curing any disease.. one should not make such a claim, just with "dreamy assumptions" .

[5/1, 13:48] Prof. KSR Prasad Tachnoayurveda: 

Simple and innovative idea for  speed control.

[5/1, 13:52] Prof. KSR Prasad Tachnoayurveda: 

I made a formula based on the height .... 15.5ml of per inch retains and effective ... for e.g. 5.5 feet is 66 inches require 1023 ML of niruha

[5/1, 13:53] Prof. KSR Prasad Tachnoayurveda: 

750 ML is for 48 inch person

[5/1, 14:27] Prof. Sanjay Lungare Ji DG:

 

Actually there's a fine line between superstition and veneration. If we cross this line either it opens our eyes or make us complete blind. It depends upon our direction.

 *श्रद्धालु मत बनो वैज्ञानिक बनो।* So it depends on you to accept reality or dream your victory. I am not criticizing anybody but I am showing the truth accepted and appreciated by आचार्य सुश्रुत।

Every MBBS graduate can perform surgery, delivery or eye examination that doesn't means he knows everything. If MBBS is sufficient then there's no need of specialisation.

[5/1, 14:48] J K Pandey Dr. Lukhnau: 

अंधश्रद्धा अहिततम् ।।

every thing must fall in accordence with logic and must be tested practically,.

mere aastha cant treat pts,.

if ayurved is science its based on facts and practical trials and effects,.

self praise and self hallucinating thoughts never give any result..

Lungare sir...just aswesome 

[5/1, 15:01] Prof. Sanjay Lungare Ji DG: 

@Anupamaji ! Your Post >Sir since 1.5 yr I ve not tried any vasti I cannot recalling my every trials properly. In short I use to apply madhutailik vasti in adult about 800-900ml for general vaat vridhi in patient or as a preventive procedure during pravrit kaal. I always use madan phal churna in that vasti as per Sushrut. I ve used mustaadi asthapan vssti with naamsaras (1000ml)for patient with retinitis pigments in near to blind stage . Not observed any complication due to maatra. Retention time average 5 mins. Unfortunately I couldnot continue that properly due to problem in maamsaras.

I ve used gomutra lekhan vasti with triphala kwath upto 700-800 ml in adult ,not observed any complication..........etc.

Sir actually I accept the samhita) 

You told that ,' you accept the samhita.

If you are accepting samhita then why you're not using बस्तिं नेत्र and बस्तिं पुटक as per samhita.

Have you tried बस्तिपुटक & बस्तिनेत्र?

Have you fill how much pressure you have to apply on बस्तिपुटक ?

Have you measured the amount of bastidravya inserted during with such procedure? 

Have you know how difficult is basti administration with बस्तिपुटक & बस्तिनेत्र ?

You told that as per samhita madanphala was used as kalka dravya by you.

Can you tell me the about abdominal pain with madanphala?

मुझे कहने में बड़ा दु:ख होता है की without application of netra and bastiputak practically you are making assumptions.

My humble request that stop creating havamahala.

Sorry if I hurt you.

[5/1, 15:20] Prof. Daya Shankar Mishra Sir: 

माधुतैलिक बस्ति तो निरूह  नहीं है

[5/1, 15:27] santosh Chavhan dr: 

it's comes under *Yapan* basti by charak ( Cha. Si. 12) and *Niruh*by Vagbhat ( A. H. Kalp 4 ) . But quantity is less as explained by Lungareji. But one should not stick to quantity since Acharya already mentioned *Prasritik praman*Basti.

[5/1, 15:37] Prof. Daya Shankar Mishra Sir: 

अनुवासन एवं निरूह देने का एक क्रम होता है, यापना बस्ति में ऐसा नहीं होता है ।

फिर 1100 ml तो यापना बस्ति में भी नहीं दी जाती !

[5/1, 15:43] santosh Chavhan dr: 

Yes no necessary for giving Anuvasan Basti in Yapan basti. 960-1100 ml Basti should be given if patient is tall considering average height of ancient Indian male above 6 ft.

[5/1, 17:37] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

सर एक श्रद्धालु ही अच्छा वैज्ञानिक वन सकता है।असली ज्ञान के अक्षय उत्स को छोड़कर एक वैज्ञानिक कुछ हासिल नहीं कर सकता। मुझे पूरा विश्वास है हर वैज्ञानिक पहले श्रद्धालु ही होंगे।

आज दो कैटरेक्ट के बारेमें मॉडर्न साइंस पता लगाया है(सफेद मतिया ,काला मतिया), समय आने पे में 6 मोतियाँ प्रोव करके दिखाऊँगी। आज sutureless कैटरेक्ट सर्जरी तक पहुंच चुके हैं पर सही position पता नहीं कर पाए हैं। समय आनेपर में आयुर्वेद की बतायी गयी position को श्रेस्ठ सिद्ध करुँगी। ऐसे बहूत कुछ मनमें परिकल्पना है, साइंटिफिक प्रोव के लिए परिकल्पना रूरी है। without hypothesis how can we prove ।ये परिकल्पना आप्त बाक्य के ऊपर अंध विस्वास से ही हो पाया है। सारे संस्कृत ग्रंथों के ऊपर नहीं। नहीं तो गोविन्द दास के भैसज्य रत्नावली के ऊपर अन्धविस्वाश कर लेती तो सुश्रुत के कैटरेक्ट सर्जरी को में भी काउचिंग समझ बैठती।

अगर में अंध विस्वासी होती तो वागभट्ट जैसे ग्रन्थ के ऊपर सवाल खड़ी नहीं करती?

सर में स्पेशलिटी के लिए कहाँ मना कर रही हूँ?

पर आयुर्वेद की प्रायोगिकता के उद्द्येश्य से हो।

धन्यबाद सर आप के संभाषा में आग्रह के कारण मुझे शास्त्र को और भी अच्छे से समझने की chance मिल रही है,अपने को अभिव्यक्त करने की सुजोग मिल रही है। 

इसलिए कहा गया है संभाषा चाहे जो भी हो ज्ञान तो वर्धन करता हि है।

Excuse me sir if I ve hurt u.

[5/1, 17:54] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey: 

श्रद्धालु नहीं, शंकालु होते हैं, पूर्ण शंकालु होते हैं वैज्ञानिक। और, परिकल्पना उसी शंका का मूर्तरूप है, जो शोध के द्वारा सिद्ध होने पर सिद्धांत बन जाती है और असिद्ध होने पर समाप्त 

[5/1, 17:54] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

 में चाहते हुए भी जो वस्तीपुटक के जरिये अपना अनुभव अब तक नहीं कर पायी हूँ तथा आपके उपरोक्त सवालों के समाधान हेतु में आज सबके ख़िलाप जाकर भी लड़ रही हूँ। ताकि मेरे जैसे चिकित्सक को आप जैसे गुरु आगे सवाल न कर पाएं। आयुर्वेद को इतना प्रैक्टिकल बनाना है कि हर स्टूडेंट्स को पंचकर्म करना आये। हर hospital में पंच कर्म लगातार होता रहे। न की पंचकर्म के लिए सिर्फ पंचकर्म हॉस्पिटल भेजना पड़े जो डेल्ही में हो रहा है।

सर मदनफल सिर्फ एक देना होता है। थोडासा मोरॉड तो विवेचन से पहले होता ही है। रेफरेन्स फॉर मधुटैलिक वस्ति as per Sushrut samhita

[5/1, 17:57] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey: परिकल्पना = hypothesis 

सिद्धांत = theory

[5/1, 17:58] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

 सर में भी तो कम संकालु नहीं, ओरिजिनल आप्तवचन को पढ़कर सबपे शंका करती हूँ ।

[5/1, 18:03] santosh Chavhan dr: 

My humble request is to focus should be on *outcome* solid conclusion respecting each other views

[5/1, 18:07] santosh Chavhan dr: 

This is Niruha pathbheda as vagbhat. Madhu Tail 4-4 Pal each I.e. 160 ml -160 ml. 320 ml Erandmool decoction ( 8 pal) . But practically 100-100 ml Honey - Seasome oil and decoction 200 ml ( lukewarm water 200ml- charak pathbheda) shatvha 6 gm and Madanphal 12 gm and rock salt 6gm

[5/1, 18:07] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

I agree with u sir.

 Also as per sushrut samhita madhutailik vasti comes under niruha or asthapan and dose also mentioned as one paada less. So dose should be ave 900 ml (for adult)if asthapan is 1200 ml for that person. reff

[5/1, 18:13] santosh Chavhan dr: 

8 Prasrit Basti Madhutailik basti 640 ml. But practically 420 ml.

[5/1, 18:16] santosh Chavhan dr: 

2 Nairuhik and 1 Yapana ( charak). Thanks for reference

[5/1, 18:21] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

  धन्यबाद सर ।

मेरा हाइपोथिसिस ही एक सामूहिक आनंद के लक्ष पर है। आयुर्वेद को अपना हक मिले ।आयुर्वेद के जरिये विस्व के हर नागरिक स्वस्तता के आनंद की उपलब्धि करें।

[5/1, 18:33] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

जी सर ,मेरे कहने का मतलब शास्त्र में जो मात्रा निर्धारण किया गया है,उसको भी हम तरय करके देख सकते हैं। अगर चरक सुश्रुत के पीरियड्स से वाग्भट्ट तक मात्रा में कोई परिवर्तन नहीं हुआ तो आगे भी सायद वो उपयुक्त है। वैसे भी देखा जाए तो पादंशिक क्रम से हर चीज़ घटा है। so as per logic if strength of human as well as drugs has been reduced proportionately that means dose should be fixed. Again capacity of large intestine also not less in comparison with dose. 

Try to karna hi chaahiye,nisphal nahin hoga . Pata to chalega kya complications ho rahe hein ?mujhe to abtak complications nahin mila hai.

[5/1, 18:34] S A Soni: ये सराहनीय संकल्प 

[5/1, 19:05] J. Hebbar Dr: 

So the conclusion drawn fails to prove that a niruha dose of less than 750 ml is ineffective. as long as it is not proven, do not claim it. Do not talk authoritatively as if research data is at your disposal.

[5/1, 19:29] santosh Chavhan dr: 

One should not stick to 96 Tola basti since so many variables regarding the dosage module. Can't getting the logic of 750 ml. ? Since dosage module variations according to Uttam Madhyam and Heena by Sarangdhara samhita. Of course No research paper proven that Basti below 750 ml is ineffective. But Basti by Putak method effective than Enema can method and Basti with Kalka Dravya is effective than That of without Kalka Dravya. But still not getting the logic of 750 ml.

[5/1, 19:29] santosh Chavhan dr: Ayu article on Pubmed ncbi

[5/1, 19:30] santosh Chavhan dr: Yes true madam

[5/1, 19:31] santosh Chavhan dr: 

Another question of Basti Kashay preparation ? How much coarse powder should be taken for Kashay preparation?

[5/1, 19:33] santosh Chavhan dr: 

My practical experience is ...One should take 125-150 gm coarse powder for Kashay preparation. Why? Why emphasized since Vaidya ignore this fact which may leads to *Amadosh if no proper Agni sanskar*

[5/1, 19:37] santosh Chavhan dr: 

Logic is our Target quantity is 500-600 ml after adding honey and oil it becomes 650-800 ml . In Kwath Kalpana 16 times water and 1/8 after but practically take 1/4 ... Hence take 4 times 500 x 4 - 2000 ml water. 16 times hence divided by 16 . 2000/16 = 125 gm. Simple *125 gm coarse powder 2000 ml of water after boiling 500 ml*

[5/1, 19:39] santosh Chavhan dr: 

Above calculation don't have samhita support but my practical experience

[5/1, 19:40] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey: युक्ति व्यपाश्रय 

[5/1, 19:41] santosh Chavhan dr: 

Why I posted since Vaidya ignore this fact. Just throwing​ coarse powder ( without measuring) and  boiling for 15 min and Basti Kashay ready. Such practice may affect efficacy of Basti

[5/1, 19:48] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir Nia: 

16 times water is for ka thin / hard dravy. Madhyame 8guna and mridau chaturgunam 

Grinded or fine powder requires only 4 times water.

[5/1, 20:07] Radheshyam J. Soni dr: 

विनम्रता पूर्वक निरुह बस्ती मात्रा के आधुनिक और प्राचीन मान के लिए अपने कुछ ऊह्य प्रस्तुत कर रहा हूँ  !

प्राचीन मान 96 तोला या 1000ml के लगभग और आधुनिक समय मे अधिकांशतया प्रयुज्य मात्रा 500 से 750 ml

प्राचीन बस्ती यंत्र में बस्ती नेत्र और बस्ती पुटक, तथा आधुनिक में प्रायशः रबर ट्यूब और सिरिंज या पॉट।

बस्ती नेत्र और बस्ती पुटक में कुछ मात्रा शेष रह ही जाती है, सम्पूर्ण मात्रा का आधान नही हो पाता, जबकि आजकल प्रयुक्त बस्ती यंत्र से सम्पूर्ण मात्रा का आधान हो जाता है।

तो मुझे लगता है कि कही भी मत विभिन्न या मात्रा की कमी या अधिकता का प्रश्न नही, केवल तकनीक के विकास के कारण वैद्य की कार्य कुशलता में वृद्धि हो गई है जिसके कारण थोड़ी सी भी औषध व्यर्थ नही जाती है और इसी कारण शास्त्रोक्त मात्रा से कम ली गई मात्रा भी पर्याप्त सिद्ध हो जाती है।

ये मेरे निजी  तार्किक विचार हैं। कोई शास्त्रीय उद्धरण देने में में असमर्थ हूँ।

[5/1, 20:22] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir Nia: 

Sandarbh is not required. Interpretations are always "yuganurup sandarbh " 

If these references are presented by a practicing physician and based on his practical experience we may title them as - प्रविभागेन युगानुरूप संदर्भ !

Hardness of drug is important , initially ML are important . They are based on hardness. Less Hardness less water can be added , less can be reduced, more hardness more water is required ,more can be reduced . Reduction depends on extraction of drug in the form of kwath . Application of pressure creates gaurav or laghav in quath.

100% insertion of basti dravy is one of the objectives to achieve bastigunas.

Ml is not important how much total dissolved solid , and presence of various contents of aqueous extract is important .

As stated by dr soni more quantity in basti Pustak and less insertion ,less quantity in Anima pot and 100% insertion of  basti dravy 2nd one is important for quality of care of patients. I think this is important .one cannot close his eyes for another reference while discussing one reference .

[5/1, 20:29] Radheshyam Soni dr:  जी सर।

मात्रा के साथ निरुह में समाहित क्वाथ की गुणवत्ता और सांद्रता भी अपना अलग महत्व रखती है।

[5/1, 20:33] Lokdeep sharma dr.: 

[5/1, 20:34] Shantanu Das Prof KC: 

[5/1, 20:48] santosh Chavhan dr: 

Ok *moral of the story* decoction should be made after proper boiling. 4 times water sufficient but how much quantity ?Not mentioned. U should give proper instructions to Therapist or in institute to PG institute...How much Quantity should be prescribed to patient for 8 days Yoga Basti module

 Generally 350-400 gm coarse powder ( dashmool/ Erandmool) for 3 Niruha basti out of 8 number Yoga Basti module.

[5/1, 22:06] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir Nia: 

ठीक कहा आपने ।

Therefore we have to think about standardization ,assessment ,gap analysis ,corrective action etc should be taken as a routine activities of PK  at various centers .plans should be made to finalize the conclusion of discussion , at the level of result oriented uniform applicability of the procedures.

[5/1, 23:39] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: Right sir

Kwatha dravya should be in yavkut form otherwise proper active principle maynot come to the kwath. I think so

[5/1, 23:53] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

   अच्छा मध्यस्त धर्म निभाया है आपने। 

जब स्टडी प्रोव कर रही है पुटक विधि श्रेस्ठ है तथा शास्त्र सम्मत भी है और कैन सिस्टम में स्नेहद्रव्य लास्ट में रह  जाते हैं ,अगर ज्यादा वस्ति मात्रा लिया जाए एबं प्रोसेस कम्पलीट न हो पाए तो स्नेह बाहर ही रह जाएगा। यूनिफार्म सस्पेंशन फॉर्म में वस्ति न जाए तो भी उचित फल नहीं आएगा। इसलिए मेरे हिसाब से कैन सिस्टम को हटाही  देना चाहिए। 

[5/2, 00:10] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

There is no question of in effectiveness due to less matra. I ve also not mentioned it. My intention is to get optimum result we should try to give optimum maatra. Because not only for vasti ,for shaman also maatra have been emphasized a lot. 

Maatra kaalasraya yukti siddhi yuktau pratisthita.

[5/2, 00:17] Prof. Sanjay Lungare Ji DG:

 

Here I am agree with you for superiority and propagation of basti with Basti putaka.

But again I disagree with openion about द्वादश प्रसृत मात्रा for single time use .

It should be divided in to three पुटक । Then you will know the single पुटक मात्रा।

As per सु चि ३८/५

Again reread the reference carefully.

[5/2, 11:54] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

I am agree with Sanjay sir. Uttam maatra for a adult should be ekadash or dwaadash  prasruta but should be administered in  3-4 divided doses till samyak  niruha lakshan as advised by maharshi Sushrut.

 अन्यथा वस्ति द्रव्य प्रस्तुति के समय ज्यादा प्रस्तुत कर ने के लिए बताते। 

सुकुमार को कम मात्रा दे सकते हैं। 

[5/2, 11:58] Prof. Daya Shankar Mishra Sir: 

निरूह बस्ति divided dose?

[5/2, 12:41] santosh Chavhan dr: 

Divided dose???? I am also not agree

[5/2, 12:43] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

जी सर मैंने बहूत बार समझने के लिए कौशिश की। सु. चि. 38/3-11

उनका ये ही अर्थ निकल रहा है।

तभी जाकर वस्तिद्रव्य ज्यादा समय मतलब (upto 45 minuits )रुकेगी और ज्यादा असर दिखाएगी। 

[5/2, 13:10] Prof. Daya Shankar Mishra Sir: 

यह व्यवहार में नहीं  होता शास्त्र को हम अपने हिसाब से प्रस्तुत नहीं कर सकते !

[5/2, 13:12] Prof. Daya Shankar Mishra Sir: 

निरूह बस्ति को 45 मिनट रोकने की आवश्यकता नहीं है !

[5/2, 13:20] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

मतलब पहले 300 ml की वस्ति दिए पुटक मेटोड से (with adequate pressure) . फिर 30 sec इंतेजार कर के  उकड़ू बैठना है वस्ति निकालने के लिए। निकलने के बाद अगर सम्यक निरूढ लक्षण न आये तो फिर दुषरी 300 ml की देनि चाहिए ।उसी विधिसे 3-4 तक वस्ति देनि चाहिए । सम्यक निरुह के लक्षण आजाये तो बंद कर देना है।

[5/2, 13:22] Prof. Daya Shankar Mishra Sir: 

ऐसा व्यवहार में नहीं करते,  बस्ति की पूरी मात्रा एक बार में ही दी जाती है !

काल, कर्म और योग बस्ति में पहले एव़ अन्त में अनुवासन बस्ति दी जाती है !

[5/2, 13:55] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

जी सर ! ये व्यवहार में नहीं है । try करने से अगर लाभ कारी हो तो प्रयोग में लाया जा सकता है।

बहूत सारे शास्त्रोक्त चिकित्सा अभी प्रयोग में नहीं है। 

आपके अनुभव सही है ,हो सकता है पुटक मेथड में एक बार में 500 ml से ज्यादा देने से कंप्लीकेशन्स मिल रहा है । 

अगर एक बार में सम्यक निरुह के पूरा लक्षण न मिले तो दुषरी बार देकर देख सकते हैं

[5/2, 14:02] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

सर मैंने अपने friend head dept of panchkarm (रायपुर ) से discussion की , उनके स्टडी के हिसाब से जितना टाइम वस्ति  रुकती है इतना अच्छा रिजल्ट मिलता है।

[5/2, 14:04] Prof. Daya Shankar Mishra Sir: 

निरूह तो इतने समय रुकती ही नहीं , रोकने की कोशिश भी नहीं करनी चाहिए , अनुवासन अधिक समय रुकनी चाहिए  ।

[5/2, 14:17] Vd Ranga Prasad Ji Chennai: 

That is why to control the vagal reflex in anuvasana light food is being advised before the procedure... May be 

[5/2, 14:31] J. Hebbar Dr: 

Probable reason for having food before anuvasana is to - restrict further upward movement of Sneha beyond small intestine... which may cause nausea dizziness etc. 

Sneha has more penetrating power.

[5/2, 14:40] Daya Shankar Mishra Sir: 

Retention time of nirooh is 15 mins

[5/2, 15:10] Vd Ranga Prasad Ji Chennai: 

Absorption of fat by the lacteals takes place in the following manner:-

 *The minute globules of fat which have been emulsified by the action of the pancreatic juice, the bile, and the intestinal juice, pass through* and between the epithelial cells which form the outer lining of the villus, and also through the transparent thin wall of the lacteals. The lacteals communicate with a fine network of lymphatic vessels which ramify on the surface of the mesentery, or membrane to which the intestines are attached. Along these vessels, which are abundantly provided with valves to prevent a backward current, _the oil globules, absorbed from the *digested food*, slowly pass, till gathered into a larger vessel called the thoracic duct._ This duct passes upwards beside the vertebral column, and pours its contents into the left jugular vein in the neck.

Absorption by the capillary blood vessels of the intestine is, however, much more important than by the lacteals. It is seen from the structure of the villi that there is only a single layer of epithelial cells intervening between the digested fluid food in the intestinal canal and the extensive surface of the capillary vessels. Absorption, therefore, of all solvent and fluid matters from the intestine into the veins of the villi takes place easily and rapidly. The intestinal juice which is poured out in such abundance during digestion is also re-absorbed by the blood vessels of the villi.

Source:.  http://googleweblight.com/i?u=http://chestofbooks.com/health/nutrition/Diet-Sickness/Absorption-From-The-Intestines-The-Villi-And-Lacteals.html&grqid=fDbizXa-&hl=en-IN

[5/2, 17:25] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

(बहुत बढ़िया।

शास्त्रार्थ की जीत होनी चाहिए।

कल मन में थोड़ी सी negativity महसूस हुई। बहुत विचार करने पर थोड़े समय के लिए चर्चा से दूर रहने का निर्णय लिया है। 

किसी से व्यथित होकर या दु:खि होकर यह निर्णय नहीं लिया है। मन ने आवाज दी और बस ।

और दुसरी बात PhD synopsis के लिए थोड़ा समय भी मिलेगा। इसलिए मन में कोई शंका या व्यथा ना करें। स्वत: को दोष न देवें।

थोड़ा समय दें मैं स्वत: group join करुंगा। ये प्रयास केवल और केवल मन शांति के लिए है। 

इसे अन्यथा न लें।

और हां  panchkarma of आचार्य सुश्रुत is more practical than any other panchkarma.)

Response of Prof. Sanjay Lungare sir on my personal number ! 

[5/2, 17:32] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

  sir absorption of digested food occur through this pakwasaya by samaan vaayu but vasti materials are undigested one . So how absorption will be possible?

Again the process of absorption as per modern science occur in small intestine but our vasti material remains within large intestine.

[5/2, 17:41] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

Thank u sir. If for 500ml it is 15 minuits then for 300 ml it may be more than that also.

Sir I am not telling retaintion time should be 45 min . 15 mins also fine. Usually though I've not seen complications in 1000 ml in vasti can method, the retention time never exceed more than 5 minuits.

I am waiting about the response of dr Ranjip also.

[5/2, 17:53] Urvashi Arora Dr: 

Mam, water absorption takes place in large intestine n vasti is water based

Nirhu vasti !!

[5/2, 18:04] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

Madam we may not get the response of vaat saman only through water absorption. As per our mechanism of vasti karma ,it is acting through veerya. So as per my understanding it is acting through mechanism of  receptor potential through enteric nervous system not by absorption.

[5/3, 21:11] S A Soni: 

Logical and honest reply.

Thanks to you Dr. Anupama Ji.

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Above discussion held on 'Kaysampraday" a Famous WhatsApp discussion group  of  well known Vaidyas from all over the India. 

Compiled & edited by

Dr.Surendra A. Soni

M.D.,PhD (KC)

Associate Professor

Dept. of Kaya-chikitsa

Govt. Ayurveda College

Vadodara Gujarat, India.

Email: surendraasoni@gmail.com

Mobile No. +91 9408441150