WhatsApp Discussion Series 46: 'Achchha' v/s 'Siddha-sneha' by Dr. Pravin Madikonda, Prof. KSR Prasad, Dr. Sukhveer Verma, Dr. Raghuram Bhatta, Dr. Pratibha P. Mahesh, Dr. Pratibha Navani, Dr. Pawan Madan, Dr. Radheshyam Soni, Dr. Shekhar Singh Rathod and others.
[8/19, 11:59 AM] Sukhvir Dr.:
What is mean of Achchhapeya ?
Is it use of only sneha without pravicharna
Or
use of simple sneha.
[8/19, 12:02 PM] Dr Mitesh:
Achpeya means simple sneha.
[8/19, 12:02 PM] Sukhvir Verma Dr.:
In my opinion Achhe sneha is use of sneha without pravicharna. This ghrita may be sadhit or murchhit.
Use of aama sneha is not achhe sneha.
How can we advised to a patient to take a aama sneha for snehana?
[8/19, 12:04 PM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:
Murchita ghrita will again have manjishta haridra etc. So, taking ghee alone makes sense.
[8/19, 12:04 PM] Dr Mitesh:
How can we made murchit sneha ??
[8/19, 12:04 PM] Jui Shahane:
I agree with this opinion Sukhvir sir !
[8/19, 12:07 PM] Sukhvir Verma Dr.:
No worry but we have to use atleast murchhit sneha for snehan.
[8/19, 12:07 PM] Sukhvir Verma:
Murchhana method is documented literature. Dr. Mitesh !
[8/19, 2:14 PM] Praveen Medi Dr:
There are two aspects of sneha pana.
Acchapeya and vicharana sneha.
[8/19, 2:15 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:
We use term 'Siddha-sneha' for sadhit sneha not the achchha sneha. There are many references where घृतानि सिद्धानि terminology has been used so we take achchha sneha as pure sneha with arthapatti.
Dr Sukhbir ji
I think aam sneha is contraindicated in vasti only not for oral use.
[8/19, 2:19 PM] Praveen Medi Dr:
Appears logical Soni Sir 
[8/19, 2:39 PM] Shekhar singh:
आचार्यों ने अच्छ पान के आसपास भी कहीं इस प्रकार की चर्चा नही की, कि स्नेहपान में अच्छपेय में आम स्नेह का प्रयोग न करें।
वस्तुतः, घृत निर्माण में अग्नि संस्कार तो होता ही है अतः घृत को आम घृत मानना भी युक्तियुक्त नहीं प्रतीत होता।
घृत आदि का मूर्च्छन संस्कार बृहत्त्रयी में वर्णित है कहीं ??
[8/19, 2:41 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:
Dr. Shekhar ! 
मूर्च्छना संभवतः रसाचार्यों की देन है ।
[8/19, 2:43 PM] Shekhar singh:
[8/19, 3:07 PM] Praveen Medi Dr:
Murchana of grita and taila is mentioned in Bhaisajya ratnavali........Jwara rogadhikara /1285
[8/19, 3:30 PM] Sukhvir Verma:
It means there is no need of murchhana sanskaar in Ghrita as it is not documented in Vrihtrai n there is no concept of saam ghrita
We always accept those principles of literature which are suitable to us. There is no standards.
Experts plz comment on the requirement of murchhana sanskaar of Ghrita used for oral purpose.
My opinion:
Use of heat to prepare Ghrita is only part of procedure not sufficient to decrease the saamata.
Simple sneha should not be use for snehan purpose. It should be murchhit or sadhit with the medicine.
[8/19, 4:27 PM] Sukhvir Verma Dr.:
Dr. Surendra ji ! restriction in vasti- ये कहाँ पर वर्णित है जी
[8/19, 4:28 PM] Sukhvir Verma:
आचार्य जी ने तो स्नेहपान में बढ़ते क्रम में स्नेह की मात्रा बढ़ाने के बारे में भी कहीं चर्चा नही की है सर् जी
[8/19, 4:50 PM] Praveen Medi Dr:
Dear sir, Even though Brihatrayi hasn't mentioned murchana of taila and grita, but it may better to consider it if possible.
But truly speaking, before taking grita pana we heat the grita once again. That much minimal heat exposure might be sufficient to eliminate the minimal content of AMA present in the Grita.
Apart from that the Ushnodaka Anupama which is advocated during sneha pana also mitigates the AMA morbidly of grita.
More over the regular domestic use of grita is never subjected to any Murchana.
I have seen people in Varanasi, at Ganga ghats, in regular practice of gogrita pana with out any murchana.... for months together.
Ushnodaka Anupana might be the answer from Acharyas against murchana procedure
[8/19, 5:24 PM] Shekhar singh MP:
कृष्ण बिहारी नूर का शेर है -
सच घटे या बढ़े तो सच ना रहे,
झूट की कोई इंतेहा ही नही।।
इसी प्रकार, शुद्ध स्नेह मूर्छित करने पर भी, शुद्ध नही रहेगा
[8/19, 6:48 PM] Parul Ben Joshi:
Ghrut or Tail paan is done After Heating it to Slightly more than Body Temperature. Never taken without Heating
[8/19, 7:46 PM] Praveen Medi Dr:
[8/19, 7:58 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:
न त्वामं प्रणयेत् स्नेहं स ह्यभिष्यन्दयेद्गुदम् ।
सावशेषं च कुर्वीत वायुः शेषे हि तिष्ठति ॥४८॥
न चैव गुदकण्ठाभ्यां दद्यात् स्नेहमनन्तरम् ।
उभयस्मात्१ समं गच्छन् वातमग्निं च दूषयेत् ॥४९॥
च सि 4
Dr. Sukhvir ji !
[8/19, 8:25 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:
Perfect Analysis !!
We are to look reverse that whether brihat trayi has mentioned such facts or not....?
Another important thing is that moorchan would be a type of siddh sneha.
It would be a matter of research that ghrit prepared with achchha sneha and another side ghrit prepared with moorchchhit sneha.....?
Which should be more effective and why...?
Dalhan also mentions.....
अच्छ- केवलं सर्पि
[8/19, 8:59 PM] Dr Pratibha P Mahesh:
taila moorchana is explained by sharangadhara....its not related to sneha adhyaya.....
its explained under manufacturing of different taila...!
[8/19, 9 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:
[8/19, 9:00 PM] Dr Pratibha P Mahesh:
different paka khara madhyama mrudhu specifically indicated in pana nasya bhasthi n abhyanga...
[8/19, 9:04 PM] Sukhvir Verma:
Yes type of paka is specifically indicated for paan.
[8/19, 9:58 PM] Shekhar singh:
Right sir, but here point is achch sneh should be treated or not ?
[8/19, 10:11 PM] Dr Pratibha P Mahesh:
praveen sir if processed or samskarita ghritha if it is having chance of shamana effect while given for shodhana why acharyas are mentioned different sneha or ghrita kalpana in different adhyaya.....
how iit wl act as shamana as there is difference in matra n kala...
[8/19, 10:11 PM] Dr Pratibha P Mahesh:
not remembering but its in bhaishaja kalpana text or sharangadhara samhita...
if accha sneha is in first order dn all cases why cant we use it...
even based on palatability its good
[8/19, 10:22 PM] Ramesh Pande Dr Delhi:
Sir, Dose of Accha paan (cow ghee) ?
[8/19, 10:24 PM] Dr. Sharad Trivedi: 
[8/19, 10:24 PM] Ramesh Pande Dr Delhi:
Timing of Trivuth churna given.... In morning or before night bed time ?
[8/19, 10:26 PM] Dr Pratibha P Mahesh:
it was given in morng...classical virechana..
[8/19, 10:27 PM] Dr Pratibha P Mahesh:
its in sneha adhyaya...in this case sir should reply
[8/19, 10:28 PM] Ramesh Pande Dr Delhi:
Reference of Types of sneha paak is available in Bhaisajya kalpana as well as in Sharangdhar samhita.
[8/19, 11:18 PM] Radheshyam Soni dr:
यहां स्नेहार्थ अच्छ शब्द का प्रयोग है, ना कि शुद्ध।
अच्छ घृत और प्रविचारना ये स्नेहनार्थ उपयुज्य हैं। आचार्य ये नहीं कह रहे कि अच्छ से तातपर्य साधित घृत नहीं है और ना ही उन्होंने साधित घृत को 24 प्रविचारनाओं में ही गिना है।
लगभग सभी रोगों में शोधन का विधान बताया और साथ ही रोग में प्रयुक्त घृत भी बताए, तो क्या वे केवल शमनार्थ ही बताए
क्योकि स्नेहन हेतु तो आचार्यों ने अच्छ स्नेह को ही वरीयता दी है।
मैं अच्छ स्नेह से साधित स्नेह के पक्ष में हूँ।
मैं डॉ प्रवीण सर के शुद्ध गोघृत से स्नेह करने को वर्जित नहीं कर रहा। उनका तर्क अपनी जगह सही है। शुद्ध घृत भी आम नहीं है और पथ्य भी है। साथ ही साधित घृत की अपेक्षा पान करने में भी आसान है।
पर रोगधिकार में वर्णित साधित घृत अधिक उपयुक्त विकल्प है ऐसा मेरा भी मानना है और इस बात पर मैं डॉ सुखबीर जी से सहमत हूँ।
घृत मूर्छन हेतु शारंगधर भी कहता है। और शारंगधर को भैषज्य कल्पना हेतु प्रधान ग्रन्थ माना जाता है। बहुत सी बातें जो वृहत्त्रयी में नहीं है, उनको हैम शारंगधर और अन्य ग्रंथो और टीकाओं से ग्रहण करते ही हैं।
[8/19, 11:19 PM] Abhyadaya Sharma Jpr:
Please refer Bhaishajya Ratnawali
All kinds of tail n Ghrit murchan r given in it
[8/19, 11:24 PM] Pawan madan Dr:
[8/19, 11:27 PM] Pawan madan Dr:
तो इस तरह अच्छ घ्रुत एवम साधित घ्रत मे क्या विभेद समझा जाय?
[8/19, 11:29 PM] Shekhar singh MP:
रत्नावली से सैकडों साल पहले भी रिफरेन्स मिल जाएंगे।
[8/19, 11:30 PM] Praveen Medi Dr:
Dr. R.S. Soni !
[8/19, 11:31 PM] Abhyadaya Sharma Jpr: True
[8/19, 11:36 PM] Shekhar singh:
कुछ समय पहले भी मैंने यह प्रश्न उठाया था इसी ग्रुप में।
दक्षिणभारत से शिक्षा प्राप्त मेरे पंचकर्म विशेषज्ञ मित्र शुद्ध घरेलू घी से स्नेहन कराते हैं। जबकि महाराष्ट्र की ओर व्याधि अनुसार सिद्ध घृत से स्नेहन कराते हैं।
दोनों को ही अपेक्षित परिणाम मिलते हैं।
ऊपर जो palmer Planter psoriasis का सफल केस आया है, उसमे भी शुद्ध सादा घृत पान ही कराया गया है।
अगर ग्रुप में डॉ अनुपमा जी होतीं तो शारंगधर की आज अच्छी चर्चा हो जाती !
[8/19, 11:37 PM] Dr Narinder:
Sir, the word used by charak is Achcha peya.. the Sneha which is used as paana without being used with odana etc is achcha, whether sadhita or otherwise.. this is to show the difference b/w vicharana Sneha and achcha peya..
[8/19, 11:38 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:
सिद्धानि तैलानि घृतानि चैव देयानि२ मेहेष्वनिलात्मकेषु ।
पूर्व वक्तव्य में भी मैंने अर्थापत्ति प्रमाण से अर्थ ग्रहण करने का निवेदन किया था । पुनः निवेदन है कि सिद्ध घृत के संदर्भ आचार्य ने स्पष्टतः कई बार निर्देश दिए हैं । ऊपर 1 उदाहरण दिया है । अच्छ शब्द कहीं प्रयुक्त नहीं हुआ है ।
ग्रहणी चि. में
*पित्तम् अच्छम् उदीर्यते ।*
कहा है जो शुध्द पित्त का ही ज्ञान कराता है ।
[8/19, 11:40 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:
But we miss her, her curious comments and detailed interpretation.
Dr. Shekhar !
[8/19, 11:41 PM] Dr Narinder: Yes Sir.. 
[8/19, 11:48 PM] Praveen Medi Dr:
अच्छपेयस्तु यः स्नेहो न तामाहुर्विचारणाम्| acc to this statement of charaka, there are only two categories of sneha.
1. acchapeya
2. vicharana sneha.
As siddha gritas like mahatiktaka, kalyana, panchagavya gritas does not fall under the category of acchapeya, they obviously come under the category of acchapeya i feel
[8/19, 11:50 PM] Dr Narinder:
केवल सनेहपानम् तु स्नेहने शक्ति अतिशयत्वेन न विचारणा संज्ञा उच्यते।। चक्रपाणि।।
[8/19, 11:53 PM] Praveen Medi Dr:
There are two aspects of sneha pana.
Acchapeya and vicharana sneha.
The concept of vicharana sneha has been actually considered again from two aspects.
1. Sneha saha pana drvayas – described to overcome the difficulties in the consumption of abhyantara snehapana. ( by addition of odana, vilepi, rasa, mamsa, dadhi etc.)
2. Anya marga sneha pravesha - All other aspects of application of sneha other than oral route such as vasti, uttra vasti, nasya, gandusha, kavala, karna purana and akshi tarpana.
[8/19, 11:53 PM] Praveen Medi Dr:
Coming to acchapeya..........
अच्छः केवलस्नेहः...........kevala sneha....
The only thing left out thing from the vicharana sneha is “Abhyantara snehana without additives” and this is what in real sense acchapeya. By this definition even the sadhita grita also may come under the per view of acchapeya...
Acchapeya again can be considers from two aspects
1. Kevala grita/taila pana (murchita /amurchita)
2. Samskruta sneha pana / siddha sneha ( such as mahatiktaka grita, panchatiktaka grita)
[8/19, 11:53 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:
ज्वरस्येत्यादि। ज्वरस्येति निरामवातजनितस्य। घृतं पुराणं, तस्य कालदिसंस्कारेण विशेषगुणकारित्वात्। स्वच्छं सुष्ठु अच्छं केवलं, स्वच्छवचनाद्द्रव्यान्तयोगो निषिध्यते, न तु संस्कारः पाकेन कालेन च।
Dalhan
Su U 39/97-98
Pravin Sir
[8/19, 11:58 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:
ज्वरस्य पूर्वरूपेषु वर्तमानेषु बुद्धिमान् ।
पाययेत घृतं स्वच्छं ततः स लभते सुखम् ।।९७।।
विधिर्मारुतजेष्वेष, पैत्तिकेषु विरेचनम् ।
मृदु, प्रच्छर्दनं तद्वत्कफजेषु विधीयते ।।९८।।
मूल श्लोक
सु+अच्छ= स्वच्छ
[8/20, 12:10 AM] Praveen Medi Dr:
[8/20, 8:19 AM] Amol Kadu Dr:
Good reference.
Finally what would be the conclusion of whole discussion
[8/20, 8:20 AM] Vd Pratibha Navani:
Great sir very precisely explained achha sneha
[8/20, 9:32 AM] Praveen Medi Dr:
The conclusion from my side based on the above references from Charaka and Arunadatta, would be
1. Acchapeya could be taken as kevala sneha (only Grita, taila, vasa, Majja)
2. Siddha sneha mentioned under the context of various diseases cannot be considered as achhapeya, because they have dravya Samyoga.
3. Acchapeya is more suitable for Sodhana purpose. Its utility in Samana is inferior to that of Siddha Grita.
4. Siddha Grita, also can be considered for Sodhana purpose, but its utility as Sodhana-Purva sneha is inferior to that of Achapeya.
5. Siddha Grita is more suitable for Samana purpose and its utility is superior to that of Acchapeya in Samana.
6. Acchapeya and siddha Grita when combined with odana, viplepi etc, will be denoted as vicharana sneha.
6. Sneha murchana is not mandatory for sneha pana. It could be considered as optional.
Thanks to the clarity brought by Soni sirand other Scholars
The above points can be debated further till uniform consensus is obtained
[8/20, 9:36 AM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr:
Very nicely summarized
[8/20, 10:04 AM] Sukhvir Verma:
Here Acharya indicates abt Puran Ghrita. Definitely puraan ghrita is always in niraam condition n there is no need of any process.
[8/20, 10:10 AM] Raghuram Dr Banguluru:
Brilliant presentation Praveen sir
But related to Siddha Ghrita, I would like to *differ a bit*
Siddha Sneha is *equally* helpful for Shodhana purpose.
I hv seen it in my clinical experience. They hv *disease modifying roles*.
- Like Shodhana Sneha given on empty stomach in prabhuta matra when patient is not hungry.
- Shamana Sneha given when patient is hungry (annakale), in madhyama matra.
- Brimhana Sneha administered along with food, in alpa matra.
These factors should be essentially considered during Sneha administration.
[8/20, 10:15 AM] Radheshyam Soni dr:
सभी बिंदुओं पर सहमति।
सिर्फ चतुर्थ बिंदु की इस बात से मैं सहमत नहीं कि शोधनार्थ स्नेहन हेतु साधित स्नेह की अपेक्षा स्वच्छ स्नेह श्रेष्ठ है।
हम शोधन उत्कलिष्ट दोष में ही देते हैं और स्नेह हेतु दिया गया साधित घृत इस उत्कलेशन को यदि शमित करेगा तो वो शमन मात्रा में देने से, ना कि शोधनार्थ कही गई मात्रा में।
यहाँ पर मात्रा विचारणीय है। मेरा ऐसा मानना है।
[8/20, 10:19 AM] shekhar singh:
साधु साधु।।
तीनो वक्तव्य
[8/20, 10:41 AM] Sukhvir Verma:
According to conclusion a fresh ghrita may be used as an Achhpeya. It should not be mixed or processed with any procedure or medicine. Am I right?
Ghrita and other sneha also
[8/20, 11:17 AM] Praveen Medi Dr:
Yes sir, By definition अच्छं केवलं Acchapeya means Kevala sneha pana.
The above statement is substantiated from the deliberations of Dalhana, who denied adding any dravya samyoga to the Acchapeya
[8/20, 11:26 AM] Praveen Medi Dr:
Therefore Sadhita Grita/ sneha cannot be termed as Acchapeya, but it also can be used for the purpose of both Sodhana and Samana.....
[8/20, 11:30 AM] Sukhvir Verma:
Can we use achhe sneha for shodhan purpose ?
Or
Can we ask to patient take a sneha from market and use it for shodhan purpose ?
[8/20, 11:41 AM] Praveen Medi Dr:
Yes. We do the same thing at our clinical settings for sodhana purpose.
In my clinic I provide Gogrita/ taila taila to the patient's.
At Government college we ask them bring it from a very reliable source....
[8/20, 11:49 AM] Sukhvir Verma:
[8/20, 11:55 AM] Sukhvir Verma:
With regards, still I opines that Saama Sneha (any type) shouldn't be used for oral snehan even for shodhan. Saama guna of sneha may be checked by oldness, heating, sehpaan or Murchhana sanskaar.
Thanks for good discussion specially Dr Praveen n Dr Surender ji n others. I will try to accept your opinion. Thanks again.
[8/20, 12:10 PM] Praveen Medi Dr:
Dear Sir
We appreciate your conceptual thinking. Every treating physician has his own right to believe his own principles based on his experience.
There is no denying to the fact that Sama- sneha is not advisable for sodhana as you rightly said.
But as you also know sir, heating the sneha is mandatory before internal use especially for sodhana. The moment heat is applied, it no more remains Sama.
Heating sneha dravya is mandatory but not murchana( which is optional). Murchana is not only meant for AMA-nirmulana, but also for su-Gandha ( good odour) pradhana.
In any doubtful cases Sadhita Grita can be taken up for sodhana purpose.
[8/20, 1:38 PM] Janardan Dr:
I wonder where this Sama ghrita concept is mentioned, except in bhaishajya Ratnavali.
Even cow ghee is old as pitta anilahara.
Hence herbal ghritas or pure ghrita - both can be used for snehapana ahead of shodhana.
If cow ghee is Saama Sneha, even in small quantities it should not be had. Right?
It doesn't make sense.
[8/20, 2:58 PM] Praveen Medi Dr:
What ever you said sounds perfect with respect to the use of Sadhita Grita for sneha pana. Yes it can be used
But For two reasons I generally prefer Kevala sneha than Sadhita Grita.
1. We have recorded a very clear observation of less recurrences of skin diseases with Kevala Grita compared to Sadhita sneha such as mahatiktaka gritam with respect to sodhana karma. The work is has been currently allocated for a PG research.
2. acharya Charaka quoted it as Prarthana kalapana and sresta kalpana.
It also has been said "acchapanamhi pujitam".
It's a matter of research to see the better of two......
You gave a clarified picture for three different modes of sneha pana with respect to their time of consumption very aptly.
[8/20, 3:03 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:
Great conclusion Sir !!
Acharya Pravin ji and Acharya Raghu Sir.
Thanks Dr Sukhbir ji for initiation of discussion. It would be more interesting if other expert friends could contributed.
Thanks !!
[8/20, 3:22 PM] J K Pandey Dr. Lukhnau:
Superb sir !
[8/20, 4:12 PM] Vd. Pratibha Navani:
[8/20, 5:41 PM] Pawan madan Dr:
True......we have been practicing in the same way.
[8/20, 5:59 PM] Pawan madan Dr:
The use of accha sneha for shodhan.....has more good reaults.
It doesnt have any other gunas than that of ghee and this works with.....
.....with more penetration to sooksham dhatus
.....will have more affinity to grasp doshas to be evacuated
.....is easy to take in large doses
.....we dont expect accha ghee to be metabolized and dont need any dravya in this ...to act like shaman chikitsaa
.....may have more capacity to move doshas into the koshtha to facilitate a good shodhan clinically
*All these are clinical observations.*
*Sadhit ghrit may be used for shodhan but accha sneha has a greater edge over this.*
[8/20, 6:21 PM] Amol kadu Dr:
I heard one lecture of vaidya L. Mahadewan sir where he uses the mahatiktak ghruta for rasayan karma after shodhan as it contains aamlaki as pradhan dravya. So siddha ghruta should be used for shaman or for rasayan karma rather than shodhan purpose. Achhasneha should be use for Shoshana purpose. What I understood from this whole discussion.
[8/20, 7:13 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:
Pawan Sir !
[8/20, 7:25 PM] Satish Sharma Dr:
aaj itana sneh pan saman shodhan par sundar vivechan....!
sambhasa parishad....ki jhalak dikhati hai sabhi vidavajjano ko koti koti pranam !
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