WhatsApp Discussion Series 47: 'Hem-garbh-pottali-ras'- Clinical Uses by Vd. M. Gopikrishnan, Vd. Upendra Dixit, Vd. Vivek Savant, Prof. Ranjit Nimbalkar, Prof. Hrishikesh Mhetre, Vd. Tapan Vaidya, Vd. Chandrakant Joshi and Others.

[11/1, 00:57] Tapan Vaidya: 

Today morning I experienced a wonderful result in a gasping ILD pt.

I, for the first time in my life used Hemgarbhpottali rasa.

His pulse was 120 and O2 saturation 55! After Hemgarbhapottali administration within 10 minutes pulse came dwn to 108 and O2 saturation 89 !!

I repeated the Matra in the noon with addition of Trailokyachintamani Rasa as advised by Panditji. Again O2 saturation went to 39 in evening. Third dose was given. This time O2  saturation did not responded. Just before few minutes after a futile CPR I hd to declare him dead.

But the result with HGP was astonishing i must admit.

[11/1, 06:13] Mayur Surana Dr.: 

[11/1, 06:19] M gopikrishnan Dr.:

[11/1, 06:22] Vd.Vivek savant: 

   

 Last 10 days i got very good result of hemgarbh matra in Aatyayik chikitsa.

Regular pt due to Apathya sevan of 250 gm dadhi (freez) get attack asthmatic then get admitted after few days she admitted in icu ventilator dr says due to age and severity no hopes 

She taking treatment for dm CRF and cardiac problems at my clinic she is very stable 

Her son called me, I give hemgarbh with feeding tube 

Then after 2 days shwaas kaas chintamani 1..1..1 with feeding tube bt still saturation very less 

After 5 days ventilator removed totally conscious still on o2 

Afer 8 days removed from icu 

Day before yesterday pt get discharge 

O2 still sos 

[11/1, 06:31] Vd. Vivek savant: 

1st day फोटो

[11/1, 06:44] Vd. Vivek savant:

5th day Photo

[11/1, 06:45] Vd. Vivek savant:

At discharge time

[11/1, 06:46] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

Kudos 

[11/1, 06:47] Vd. vivek savant: 

Still i dont claim only because of ayu but i tried very much.

[11/1, 06:49] Vd. Vivek savant: 

After hemgarbh matra saturation is increasing and after decreasing i observed....

[11/1, 06:49] ‪+91 98903 12002‬: 

सावंत सर अभिनंदनीय कार्य ..

[11/1, 06:49] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

Mallagarbha pottali with Hemagarbha pottali would have been my choice, Sir....

[11/1, 06:50] Vd. Vivek savant: 

Yes now i stared mallsindur and shrung lep to chest and back with vacha.

[11/1, 06:52] ‪+91 98903 12002‬: 

अभ्रकभस्म with श्वासकासचिंतामणी may worth a try sir.

[11/1, 06:53] Vd. Vivek savant: 

Shwaskas chintamani still Cary on sir.

[11/1, 06:56] Prof. KSR Prasad Tachnoayurveda: 

[11/1, 07:13] pawan madan Dr: 

[11/1, 07:13] pawan madan Dr: 

Nice experience Vivek ji

[11/1, 07:48] Tapan Vaidya: 

[11/1, 08:30] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

[11/1, 08:35] Upendr dixit Prof. Goa: 

 A slide from my presentation. Vd. Gopi Sir can tell more.

[11/1, 08:36] M gopikrishnan Dr.: That's it sir

[11/1, 08:37] Upendr dixit Prof. Goa: 

I have written for Margavarodhajanya Vata, but can be used even in Dhatukshayajanya Samprapti also.

[11/1, 08:39] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

Clinical indications of Hemagarbha pottali :- 

Rajayakshma, rakthakshobha,  jeernajwara , ojakshaya.

Dosage:- 1/2  -  1 ratti 

Anupanam :- pippali, madhu, dugdha, ardraka , rogochitam.

My experiences:- 

Any chronic illness of any system of body, all types of cancers , degenerating conditions.

[11/1, 10:37] ‪+91 99499 66081‬: 

It has been observed that sometimes there is a sudden improvement before death in terminally ill patients.

Is it a sign that the body is trying its all before giving up. HGP may well have helped the body try its best...

[11/1, 10:37] Chandrakant Ji: 

Long back had an experience with हेमगर्भ मात्रा.Patients relatives were waiting for Dr.to declare pt dead.Age 81 years.BP normal , pulse normal, unconscious.  Relatives were ready to wind up further procedure & leave that place.I went for Hemgarbha, with honey. Patient became conscious &  survived for 4 more days. In the mean time some nearest relatives of pt.blamed as they were compelled to come to her funaral procedure after four days once again.

[11/1, 10:40] Chandrakant Ji: 

True Guruji.

[11/1, 10:50] Upendr dixit Prof. Goa: 

[11/1, 12:42] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

There is another silent spectator in this group , whose patient shows cerebral changes after intake of Hemagarbha pottali.....

With out there consent ,I do not want to discuss the case....

But appreciable result was observed in pt.

[11/1, 12:56] Ranjit Nimbalkar Prof.: 

Everyone knows this... 

Just a revision...pls don't take otherwise.. 

Breathlessness (and subsequent fall in O2 saturation) is generally from two origins.. 

Either cardiac or pulmonary. 

In cardiac, generally in Left Ventricular Failure, left ventricle fails to pump the blood to the body. This creats back pressure on Lt atrium, and then to the pulmonary circulation, causing edema, leading to breathlessness. Condition called as cor pulmonale. 

Due to disease of lung like pneumothorax, ILD, fibrosis, collapse, atelectasis, gas exchange in the lungs gets hampered, leading to breathlessness. 

So same symptom has altogether different pathologies. 

Effect of hypoxia is somewhat similar. 

Fall in O2 leads to increase in CO2 (hypercapnia), which dissolves in water of plasma and forms H2CO3 (carbonic acid). pH of blood changes and blood becomes less basic. Condition called as Respiratory acidosis. 

If not corrected with appropriate measures like proper oxygenation and injecting bicarbs, leads to multi organ failure, especially kidneys and pt dies.

 Now, we need to know, HGP acts on which type of breathlessness? Pulmonary or cardiac ? 

how it takes care of other parameters alone, which are deranged due to hypoxaemia/hypercapnia ?

For it's action, it should be water soluble, without which it will not be able to reach the target organs... 

So, which are the soluble molecules in HGP, can be  found out very easily. 

Claiming is good but proving is better... Let's try to work for proving this on scientific grounds

[11/1, 13:18] Chandrakant Ji: 

I think proving these things on scientific grounds to personal level is bit difficult. It can be done in govt medical colleges (Ayurvedic) & govt institutions as good flow of pt's is there with all accommodations.

[11/1, 13:19] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

Hgp is ojovardhaka , which helps in such conditions , as such... Solubility is the questing...... then, no it's not soluble in water.

Very very less or nothing is known in Ayurveda drug absorption mechanisms , it's only result oriented studies , no technique is there is establish , such topics are discussed deliberately with scientist of IISC, C.O EARTH SCIENCES etc . But no one could answer well , it's not the matter of mineral or metal, even the herbal drugs are not established in vitro/ vivo studies.

These mechanisms are explained by C. Dwarakanath regarding gold absorption in lung tissue and claimed a theory as oligodynamic action.

Further studies are needed, which is not possible by any one as no funds, no support etc.

Forget about every thing , it's clinically successful and a aptha vachana as per text , appreciate the result.

People in research are always in research , life time , by the time the research proves Ayurveda is true and result oriented , we would have cured "n" number of cases , which is ultimate requirement for a practitioner.

We strongly believe in 3 dosha theory, which themself are not visible and we expect the mode of action in such amurtha components of body to be visible in microscope  ??

[11/1, 13:22] Dr Surendra A Soni: 

[11/1, 13:28] Chandrakant Ji AP: 

[11/1, 13:28] Dr Pratiban: 

Sir, might be binding to some receptors or carried by some transporters and then cascade of sequential events could be possible. Animal model and cell line studies are needed to further explore this area.

[11/1, 13:36] Dr Pankaj Wanjadkhedakar: 

Dr. Ranjit ! Well said.

The question was never on Aapta vachana or Clinical success.

We all have experience about clinical success of many medicines in Ayurved; though the documents available are limited.

But, the question will be asked by the same relatives; if the patient is 40 years old and not 80 years old.

In case there are any legal implications; the Hon. Court of Law of our own nation will not consider Ojovardhak or Aapta Vachan & will be hardly in favor of Ayurved practitioner.

Point to believe is that-

We need documented & published series of such patients without being emotional about Ayurved.

Once there are documents published in public domain; IIT, IISC, NPL, NCL, DST etc will come to you Sir and will ask for theory & clinical experience on that.

Ranjit has made a point to be considered in Emergency Care; where legal issues may raise.

Researches are welcome.

Govt. says Ayurveda is 4th Priority with huge budget provisions; we are waiting for such research based studies and recognition of Ayurved by Court of Law in Medico-legal cases.

[11/1, 13:37] Mayur Surana: 

Perfectly said...

[11/1, 14:06] Tapan Vaidya: 

How many of us have come across medico legal confrontation in their private as well institutional practice?

I may be wrong but it my strong belief that an indian national look at ayurveda or Vaidya as a very positive or somewhat pious attitude.

In my >25 years tenure i only once had a medicolegal problem where i hd commited mistake.

Otherwise people have always been cool and admiring attitudes with us.

Secondly most of the patients come with us after getting exhausted by other medical trts. So also they have a better faith in us( provided that we keep ourselves update and integrated).

Thirdly it my belief that overall an indian have a mindset fixed as Ayurveda is religious or vegetarian or pious or Apaurusheya bla bla( it is not true) which hurts them to oppose us.

I may be wrong.

.....

When it is cor pulmonale the pranvahsrotomool of heart(auricular circulation) is effected whrere Swasiki kriya is indicated

While in cardiovirculary and humoral causes the Rasavahsrotomool of heart(ventricular circulation) is effected where Langhan purvak chikitsa is indicative.

In acidosis it seems to be Rasagat Aama condition and swarjika set to be best for its pachana.

In all conditions O2 saturation is hampered which indicates Prankshaya in the body resulting in the hampered Ayu Anuvartana. So Pranakaamiya upakramas are to be installed.

Samanyonivardhan dravyopayoga is the first and foremost measure to be adopted in the form of O2 supplimetation( Vayuhu sangnapradaan hetunam) 

Than HGP with other prankaamiya like Aamalaki Bhallatak Swarna etc are to be installed concurrently.

To overcome the rest of the body functions Vasantkusumakar and Makardwaja proves to be satisfactory.

Rest symptomatic trts may be applied sos.

...

This is what i do with such pts.

[11/1, 14:14] Dr Pankaj Wanjadkhedakar:

  Nice interpretation of disease conditions Sirji

[11/1, 14:29] Ranjit Nimbalkar Prof.: 

Very valid point Pankaj.. 

But I would say.... Forget medico legal.. 

We should ask a simple question to ourself.. 

Unfortunately, if I myself or my very close near and dear ones face such condition, what will be my option? 

HGP or convensional rx?

[11/1, 14:41] Dr Pankaj Wanjadkhedakar: 

Agree Ranjeet.

I am of opinion that we have to learn to shed off our emotional outlook at our own science, Ayurved.

We can’t question if we are emotional about anything.

Somehow, these days we have too much generalized the term “Aapta” praman for everything in Ayurved.

[11/1, 15:01] ‪+91 74051 69669‬: Agreed 

[11/1, 15:06] Tapan Vaidya: 

Jisaka jitana confidence hoga utana vo ayurveda avalamban karega.

[11/1, 15:07] ‪+91 99499 66081‬: 

Words of wisdom as always.

[11/1, 15:13] hrishikesh mhtre Prof.: 

Keep away modern approval of HGP or any such rasakalpa claimed/yielding  miraculous / unusual results ...

Can we explain how HGP or any other rasakalpa act as per dosha dooshya at least ... Is it really explainable on Ayurveda terminology ? ... 

I couldn't have learnt the explanation for rasakalpa actions and their possible relationship with dosha dooshya ... ☹

How same parada gandhaka navasagara like extremely ushna teekshna dravyas yeild effects beyond all their rasa veerya etc composition??? 

If it is all prabhaava only ... Then all questions are over ...

Addition to all this, rasashaastra denies dosha dooshya logic.

[11/1, 15:15] ‪+91 98819 07552‬: 

[11/1, 15:16] ‪+91 99499 66081‬: 

Fundamental points raised sir. Yet not easy to answer.

[11/1, 15:20] ‪+91 99499 66081‬: 

The roots of Rasa shastra are  different. It had a lateral entry into Ayurveda. So maybe that's why it defies dosha  dushya logic.

[11/1, 15:21] ‪+91 99499 66081‬: 

What is important it is these medicines are our valuable atyayika chikitsa meds.

[11/1, 15:23] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

How many of us are viewing publications and treating the patients ??

 How many of us are reading texts and treating patients ?

 Answer it by yourself ?

 There are only one sect of people who view articles and learn.

For me Ayurveda and its texts are more than articles or journals , for my limited practice.

Yes if it's casualty or a general case , if people of Ayurveda or others believe in results only then we need to take up the case.

Bhishakvashya .... Is important in Ayurveda practice.

Publications vashya is secondary ( for me) 

My strong belief is it's not important to discusses what charaka ,sushrutha , vagbhatta .....we all told in text .it's important to know what we have understood out of these thoughts and where is the patient relived from illness , and how to understand it.

[11/1, 15:24] ‪+91 99499 66081‬: 

[11/1, 15:25] ‪+91 99499 66081‬: 

Are not our Shastras documentation?

[11/1, 15:26] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

If it's not acting on dosha dushya ....then how are we getting results in clinics ??? At least I am 100% sure , did not prescribe any Allopathy etc medicines to either of my pts till date in last 15 yrs of practice.

If you consider it as placebo effect....then there ends discussion

 For sure , then why do people want to rediscover things once again

 By the way are our texts completely available ?? Or we lost some where??

 Absolutely there is no force for any vaidya to do Rasa practice as mandatory.

It's there own choice.

By the way no one can change me to become non Rasa vaidhya in this life.

This is my confidence in the science.

[11/1, 15:32] ‪+91 99499 66081‬: 

In atyayika chikitsa what matters is ojus and its preservation. For a person on deathbed with arishta lakshanas is it possible to evaluate dosha - dushya etc?

[11/1, 15:34] ‪+91 99499 66081‬: 

There is no better dravya than swarna bhasma or its preparations for ojovriddhi.

[11/1, 15:35] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

Or change the texts in Ayurveda and remove chapters of swabhava and prabhava , at least the freshers will need to read less from syllabus point.

Which are considered as non Ayurveda

 Sushrutha considers it under rakshogna gana ...Oops , Now people might say sushrutha was not from Ayurveda.as he conducted surgeries etc.

[11/1, 15:38] Prof. Mamta bhagwat: 

The only solution for all these is .. bringing Ayurvedic terminologies into practice everywhere. 

*Ojovardhaka means ojovardhaka...*

Vatahara is only vatahara

It acts as indriya prasannakara that's it.

So when we cannot translate these terminologies better to abide only to it. 

For legal issue, for relatives, or for self. 

For such an establishment one needs to be 100% sure of his diagnosis, plan and prescription. Let's raise to that level, 

Bring the Western reductionist approach to our constructive approach. 

Let's find out what is our responsibility here.

[11/1, 15:40] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

Think of what is best for Patient and just administer , do not make political parties in drugs and books.

If you are perfect in Allopathy , you read it well and find it's important for you pts , just prescribe it , first and foremost is save your patient life.

Chanting shlokas of particular book alone do not cure illness.

[11/1, 15:41] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

Very true madam , only clinical significance can save Ayurveda .

Not the publications, research, theory....etc

[11/1, 15:42] Vd. Devdatta Deshmukh: As usual.

[11/1, 15:45] Chandrakant Ji: 

Not to make things by comparing them with modern terms.

Make complicates.

[11/1, 15:46] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

There is a folk practitioner near 'shimoga' in Karnataka , who treats cancer by some of his folk medicines , people from all over the globe come to him for treatment , but he did not publish any articles , no advertisements , no textual references quoted etc he is clinically successful , that's it.

He consults at least 100+ cases per day.

Possibly he doesn't know what is dosha what is dushya.......etc.

But he shows response in pts.

[11/1, 15:48] Chandrakant Ji:

I have heard about him.

[11/1, 15:51] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

More than local Indian channels , he is covered by  international channels .

he dose not  know even English.

That's success.

Diamonds ( vajra) doesn't come in search of merchants , people dig miles of earth to find Diamonds.

[11/1, 15:51] Chandrakant Ji AP: 

[11/1, 15:52] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

Vd.Narayana murthy

[11/1, 15:55] Chandrakant Ji: 

Some of my relatives had been to him & say are better , got results , are from educated class & have kept record of it.

 Chanting ,teaching , working at ground level are bit different things.

[11/1, 16:21] hrishikesh mhtre Prof.: 

If we can not answer questions of *how and why* , then we are not shaastra followers. 

If we are satisfied with *results only*, then we are happy to be called as *magicians*

Charaka says ... 

च सि 2

तस्मात् सत्यपि निर्देशे 

कुर्यादूह्यम् स्वयं धिया ।

विना तर्केण या सिद्धि: 

यदृच्छासिद्धिरेव सा

॥२८॥

Success without explainable logic

is a fluke ...

[11/1, 16:30] Vny dongre Vd. Ay. Pth: 

 क्या कही , खूब कही !

[11/1, 16:39] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

No brihat samhitas explained taxonomy of plants and there identification ....... Then do not prescribe drugs as they are not there in charaka .

E.g.. Nirgundi is vatagna ?? Who told it ? How to identify nirgundi = vitex nigundo ? Did charaka explained it ? No never then on that ground do not prescribe Herbal drugs even

 Ekam shaastram na adhiyano na shaastraad vinischayam.......

What does it mean ??

 If you don't believe ( in a science) it , do not practice in it , but do not expect others to follow you .

Ignorance is no excuse

People of South are very popular in following astanga , they are very happy with there practice , don't compel ....

Many in South follow Agastya samhita , which most of us wouldn't have seen it even, even they are successful in clinical practice.

In my feild surveys I found people practicing Rasa medicines in Andhra Pradesh , to max extent , very successfully.

Weather some one believe in it or not , dissent make any sense.

Only criteria is clinical success, we are not literature students to discuss theories , we are doctors, discuss cases and success stories ...... That's it .

[11/1, 17:26] Prof. Gori Shankar: 

If we discuss the cases properly it includes Philosophy, Theory, Practical and excicution of science Please discuss all aspects.

[11/1, 17:28] Ranjit Nimbalkar Prof.:

Extremely sorry for initiating the issue.. 

But I think, we r getting diverted. 

Everyone is free to follow anything which suits his/her own beliefs.. 

Only question was whether there is a need of showing it in a measurable manner... 

My opinion is YES... WE SHOULD... in fact... WE MUST..

again this is only for me. 

For those who don't, qas a simple question.. 

Wheher they themselves face such a crisis, what would they prefer... No one has given any clearcut answer to this question... 

Unless we give sureshot answer to this question, we r cheating ourselves... 

Forget life threatening conditions... Right now there are many vaidyas (even in this group), staunch followers of Ayurveda, talking a lot about Ayurveda, but taking modern medication for their own complaints like Diabetes, Hypertension, Hypothyroid, Infertility etc.. 

So... Only poit was... Let us keep our claims moderate and supported with some valid documnts, where ever possible.. 

Let's be more rational than emotional.. 

Sorry for anything untoward 

[11/1, 17:31] ‪+91 98903 12002‬: 

रणजीतजी आप सही तरीकेसे वाग्भट के अनुयायी है.. कोई भी  अभिनिवेश बिना लिए हमेशा मध्यममार्ग का पालन करते है... 

[11/1, 17:46] ‪+91 93261 90749‬: 

 As usual impressed by knowledgful discussion by all stalwarts of Ayurved.It is really increasing enthusiasm of new comer like me.

I have few experience of आत्ययिक चिकित्सा.

Polite request for discussion of single case with all possible/available details of theory and practical approach.

It could help and guide to think logically!!

[11/1, 17:54] ‪+91 99499 66081‬:

 to all 

Every word  spoken here has triggered thinking in us. 

Very important questions. We do not have the answers. Let us seek answers with humility and not judge anybody.

Jayashree mam' s suggestion is worth considering. 

[11/1, 18:11] ‪+91 98904 10382‬: 

How long are we going to #FIGHT on dis topic?

Why dont we let it rest in peace for people using.

[11/1, 18:15] Vinay dongre Vd.: 

सॉरी मॅडम , लेकिन यह विवाद आज का नही है , खाली स्वरूप बदला है , भाषा बदली है , लोग बदले है !

[11/1, 18:27] Ranjit Nimbalkar Prof. AP: 

धन्यवाद सर... लेकिन अब हम सब को सच्चाई का सामना करना  चाहिये और वो बदलने की जी जान से कोशिश करनी चाहिये.. सिर्फ बडी बातें करने से व्यक्ती बडी हो सकता है, शास्त्र नहीं.. 

बात छोटी ही क्यों ना हो, व्यवहार में अच्छे से दिखनी चाहिये और routinely उपयोग में रहनी चाहिये... 

 आज हम एक अच्छा रिझल्ट मिलते ही खुश हो जाते है... अच्छा रिझल्ट ये एक आम बात होनी चाहिये, और जहां रिझल्ट नहीं मिल रहा ऐसे केसेस पे डिस्कशन होना चाहिये... 

अगर हम सब मे एक minimum uniformity आती है,  तभी ये संभव लगता है

[11/1, 18:53] Vd. Devdatta Deshmukh: 

हाँ भाई । लेकिन इसके लिए modern parameter क्यों? हम हमारी परिभाषा क्यों नहीं इस्तेमाल करते? वो भी measurable है ही ना ?

[11/1, 19:21] ‪+91 94225 92068‬: 

आशय और आग्रहसे सहमत।

पर ज्ञान के लिए श्रद्धा और संदेह दोनोंकी जरूरत होती हैं। संदेह ज्ञान को तराशने का साधन है लेकिन विना श्रद्धा कोई ज्ञान उप्लब्ध नही होता। श्रद्धा से मेरा मतलब संपूर्ण तर्क के उपरांत "यही सत्य हो सकता है " यह धारणा/ विश्वास है। बिना श्रद्धा कोई साहस उत्पन्न नही हो सकता।

[11/1, 20:50] Upendr dixit Prof. Goa: 

People are eager to embrace modern medicine and may try to justify that by using (twisting?) quotations like एकं शास्त्रमधीयानो.... Then why some people oppose Rasashastra so much ? It's like because once they opposed, that's why have to keep on opposing. Because it becomes a prestige issue. Fact is that Rasaushadhi were in use since Vedic period. Brihat Trayi have several references about Rasaushadhi. One Vaidya at Jamnagar  has compiled references about Rasaushadhi from Charakasamhita. I have got a copy of that. So what if it was further propagated after the period of Nagarjuna. Rasaushadhi are also an integral part of Ayurveda. We can't afford to loose or leave them. Already a small fraction of total knowledge of Ayurveda is available for us. Lot of literature is already lost. Out of the available knowledge, how much we have learnt? How much actually we are practically using? ये तो वही बात है कि हमारे सामने पहाड़ जैसी चुनौतियां खड़ी है । हमारी पूरी ताकत भी लड़ने में जब कम पड़ रही है, तब हम कहे कि हम तो एक हाथ से ही लडेंगे । या एक उंगली से ही लडेंगे । जी नहीं हमारे पास जो भी अपने संसाधन है, हम सबका उपयोग करके लडेंगे । हम रसशास्त्र या किसी भी आयुर्वेद के हिस्से को बिल्कुल नहीं गँवाएंगे ।

[11/1, 21:13] hrishikesh mhtre Prof.:

 Respected UPENDRA sir ...

1

I never said quit rasakalpa. 

2

Some were expecting to explain the miraculous effect on modern basis.

3

I just humbly suggested to explain it on the basis of our own dosha dooshya vichaara.

4

Not to use rasakalpa is not prestige issue, but my ignorance and inability.

5

I couldn't understand how they work? I have mentioned it in my post.

6

Is it mandatory to use all apps which are available in our mobile or available on play store.? I may not need or I may not be capable enough to use them.

Similarly is it compulsory for everyone to use rasakalpa, I may not need and/or I may not be capable enough to use them. Isn't it?

Datar shastri & bagevadikar shastri didn't use 5karma. They have very stringent remarks on it. Have I done any such remarks on rasakalpa.?

7

Contarary I requested to teach you the logic behind rasakalpa effect in 'our' own dosha dooshya vichaara. Is this my ignorance or my arrogance?

8

Where 10dulkar can make century , on same ground, with same bat ball etc ... I may get clean bowled in first over.

Because cricket is not a science, it is an art. It is personal skill.

Our Ayurveda (and rasashaastra) is a science, I conceive. Science is that which same effect to everyone at all the times, irrespective of *one's faith*. If you switch on the button, the fan will start revolving, irrespective of one's faith.

Rooksha sheeta increases vaata, ushna teekshna increase pitta, guru snigdha increase kapha, ... This is science ... But I can use some kalpa & you can not ... This is not science. YES ... it is personal SUCCESS. I do Respect such personal SUCCESS. But it necessarily doesn't establish science.

... Though I respect every successful person here ... From those same successful persons , I wish to learn the logic behind rasakalpa ....

Simple ... 

[11/1, 21:21] pawan madan Dr: 

Wowww......

Great discussion today...

     

Even I havent understood the rules of simple herbs in dravya guna.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO FIXED RULE.

one sheet dravy can be pittashaamak and another sheet dravya can be  pitta kaarak...may be due to its virya...

I have searching the rules over the years that couldnt......actually PRABHAAVA is the hing thatt can be understood...

This thing has also been explained by Mhetre ji manny times  by giving manny examples.....so would that mean that is not a science.....

 All theories have been formed after observing the reaults.

[11/1, 21:26] Upendr dixit Prof. Goa: 

You are taking it personal Vaidyaraj Hrishikesh! . I know you very well and your intentions behind such questions are always good, for sure.  Your points are definitely valid. The stalwarts who have shared their experiences on Rasaushadhi have learnt about it thoroughly and also based on Dosha - Dooshya etc. parameters.  Without proper knowledge Rasaushadhi should be used. Thought process as advised by our texts shouldn't be bypassed and blind use of Rasashastra shouldn't be done.

[11/1, 21:29] pawan madan Dr: 

Everything should be proved logically.

Lets prove why Gatifloxacin works on salmonella typhi and why not ampicillin?

Whats the method to prove?

Use, observe, document and explain with a theory.

And someday another scientist may prove that theory wrong and put another one. Then ????

[11/1, 21:31] pawan madan Dr: 

Gopi sir..

[11/1, 21:32] Upendr dixit Prof. Goa: 

That's why I posted about mode of action of Hemagarbha in terms of Dosha - Dooshya. That is an attempt in the direction which Vaidya Hrishikesh ji is suggesting.

[11/1, 21:33] pawan madan Dr: 

Anybody can use  and practice anything in which one has the confidence and confidence comes from the experience, exoerience comes with observations............

We cant compell anyone.

 The theory of prabhav has only been given to explain unexplainable things.

Sir...you are a specialist in this knowhow. Need not to say more....

[11/1, 22:03] Pawan rajyan: 

Today read discussion on diverse topics discussed here from last month , amazing  !! एक से बढ़के एक विद्वान लोगो को एकसाथ पढ़ने का सौभाग्य मिलता है यहाँ 

[11/1, 22:06] Ranjit Nimbalkar Prof.: 

If you need its help, take properly and completely.. 

If not, leave completely... 

No selective permeability please

[11/1, 22:07] pawan madan Dr: 

Thats what I wannted to say. Ayurveda cant be explained to satisfy the needs of modern scientists.

Abhi unko ye samajhane me bahut saaal lagenge.

Just google the sciences  of paranormal experiments of the west. They have the observations with proofs but without explanations.

[11/1, 22:15] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

Can any one elaborate the definate mode of action of Chandraprabha vati or chitrakadi vati in any case.

Please do guide me in understanding Ayurveda.

[11/1, 22:16] Pawan rajyan: 

Not possible to interpret ayurvedic medicines in so called scientific way.

[11/1, 22:18] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

Modern science is not that advanced to explain Ayurveda. 

Not even in scientific way , it's not possible in Ayurveda way also...it's only apthavachana and clinical experience in particular drug.

[11/1, 22:20] Ranjit Nimbalkar Prof.: 

That's why... 

NO MODERN "SCIENCE"...only AYURVEDA

[11/1, 22:20] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

Sorry sir , not even in Ayurveda way

 Saprapthi vighatana of prameha using CP

[11/1, 22:21] Pawan rajyan AP: Very true sir

[11/1, 22:22] Prof. KSR Prasad 

Tachnoayurveda: Importance of Sneha

As we know we follow Snehana Swedan and then Shodhan kirya

like said by Acharya Chakradatta

स्नेहंअग्रे प्रयुजित तत्तः स्वेदंअनन्तरम् 

but it is really important ?

yes it is important 

as rightly said by acharya Charaka

*शुषकान्यापि हि काष्ठणी *...

नंयन्ति ......*पुनर्जिवितो नरान् *

yes punarivito naran..it helps to revive Oja..or rather gives strength to Oja..

..helps doshas to get into Koshtha 

स्निग्ध स्विन्नस्य भैषज्यदोषस्तु उत्क्लेषितो बलात् 

निलियतो  न मार्गेषु स्निग्धे भाण्ड इवोदकम् 

                  सु.चि.अ.33

दोष औशदियो द्वारा उत्केल्षित करने पर मार्ग मे चलायमान होते है ...

मार्ग मे उसि प्रकार नहि ठहरते है जिस प्रकार चिकने घडे पर पानि नहि ठहरता .अतः स्नेहन स्वदन करणा  अनिवार्य है.

Bhel Samhita says

स्नेह्नैव्याधितस्थानाद्रसैश्चभ्यधिकिकृताः 

स्वेदे मृदुकृता ससनःतः स्त्रोतसह च समागता 

मृदुसर्वङ्ग् कोष्टस्य  भेषजशशुचि भिस्तता 

दोषास्सुनिर्हरा जन्तोभवन्ति विनिश्च्य 

स्नेहन से विकृत स्थान मे रस कि वृधि होकर दोष क्लिन्न होते है. स्वेदन से दोष मृदु (चःलायमन ) होकर स्त्रोतो मे आ जाते है.स्नेहन स्वेदन से संपूर्ण शरीर आउर् कोष्ठ मृदु होने के  कारण  संशोधन  औषधो से शरीर , शोधन होने से स्वच हो जात है 

Modern point view

Snehana

There is significant increae in gastic motality in post massage period which leads to good absorption of the nutrient and proved good weight gain

Action of Plasma oxytocin level

Oxytocin hormone known to resposible by social bonding and touch may affect oxytocin (OT ) relase .Morhenn et al (2012) in his study found massage of associated with an increase in oxytocin level and reduction in ACTH level , nitirc oxide and increase in parasympathetic tone , enhance immune function adn decrease anxiety and depression (Jara har , sharmahar, kleshahara)

oxytocin has been formed to regulated the digestive  mechanism . it stimulates the relase of digestive hormones and gastric enzymes which lead to more effective absorption of nutrient.

Swedana

1)Acts as vasodialtors

2) Act on Pitutary gland.

3)action on nerves...

in this article i have mentioned all refrences and with all possible mechanism...cnt type detail about swedana..vl do ltr on...

[11/1, 22:22] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

Please explain me about any one compound in detail.

[11/1, 22:22] pawan madan Dr:

 

Even for any vyadhi....

Explaining this os just a theory ...an assumption...

[11/1, 22:26] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

It's not alone rasoushadhi are mysterious and with magical Remidies .

Ayurveda is mysterious and magical in nature.

It's the way we understand it .and is based on anumana pramana which is widely accepted in Ayurveda.

[11/1, 22:27] M gopikrishnan Dr.:

Prasad Sir 

[11/1, 22:29] Prof. KSR Prasad

Tachnoayurveda: 

Ayurveda is any thing that supports life ...

Why the people are discriminating rasashastra which is a part of ayurveda is not known 

Truly on the other hand they extend and expand and see in the eyes of modern 

Probably they think that Rasa medicines are with risk ... risk is every where while treating patient.

[11/1, 22:33] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

Sir , the question now is, people are not able to understand Rasa guna .....of rasoushadhi , and details of it is not explained by charaka .

So Rasashastra is not Ayurveda ???????????????

But now my question is explain me the Rasa guna of some herbal combination(formulation) in respect to mode of action or samprapthi vighatana of any given vyadhi , as definate action of that combining.

E.g. Chandraprabha in prameha etc.

[11/1, 22:36] Prof. KSR Prasad

 Tachnoayurveda: 

Dear 

For first part ... there is no need of Rasa guns for rssaushadhi as it works above to it

For second part ... as they are not able to do it opting for anti properties .. like antidiabetic anticancer etc.

[11/1, 22:37] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

So it's prabhava and swabhava ....... ? Is it sir.

[11/1, 22:38] Prof. KSR Prasad Tachnoayurveda:

 yes in short

[11/1, 22:39] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

The first answer you have is not acceptable by few , because they don't have Rasa guna ...... So they are not into Ayurveda .

Is there question

 Even this is not acceptable , by few

 I tried all these answers , but it's not satisfied

 So the chapters of swabhava , prabhava , vyadhi pratyanika chikitsa are only time pass chapters of the texts.

[11/1, 22:41] Dr Parag kanolkar: 

I think first we look to basics of rasshastra to explain in different viewpoint.

[11/1, 22:43] Prof. KSR Prasad Tachnoayurveda: 

Basically all Rasa medicines act at target comprehensively with bhavana at micro cellular levels ... I have a doubt about rasaushadhi particle absorption and speed of travel to target 

Many medicines I observe different time absobability with vehicle and sublingual or oral consumption 

I prefer sublingual in emergency and oral at latency if required abrupt to go for rectal.

[11/1, 22:49] Prof. KSR Prasad Tachnoayurveda: 

This is very old presentation of mine 

My question is all the methods are accepted but have clinical variations with procedural variations .. to be validated

 My little understanding of rasa medicines

[11/1, 22:56] Tapan Vaidya: 

प्रभाव

स्वभाव और

अभाव

[11/1, 22:57] Prof. KSR Prasad Tachnoayurveda: 

Aushadha prabhava 

Rasa swabhava

Makes vyadhi abhava

[11/1, 23:00] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

As per opinion of Charaka and Gangadhara commentaries......concept of samskara as reference.

Hg is guru guna 

S is sara guna 

Combining both is parpati , which is best in atisara ( guru of Hg and Sara of S)?????

 By samskara with Agni sannikarsha the guru guna of Hg  converts to Laghu , the sara guna of S converts to grahi guna .

By samyoga with drugs like kadali patra ,gomaya and gogrita the qualities enhance.

So by these adored grahi and Laghu gunas, which in turn  do  agni vardhana , then amasoshana , grahani roga prashamana.

So parpati  is used in grahani .

Where as kajjali is not used here.

I thought these ideas are to norms of Ayurveda , but I learnt I was wrong in understanding Ayurvediya Rasashastra.

Omg  is it

[11/1, 23:03] Prof. KSR Prasad Tachnoayurveda: 

********************************************************************************

Above discussion held on 'Ayurveda Peetha"(initiated by Prof. S.N. Ojha) a Famous WhatsApp group of  well known Vaidyas from all over the India. 

Compiled & edited by

Dr.Surendra A. Soni

M.D.,PhD (KC)

Associate Professor

Dept. of Kaya-chikitsa

Govt. Ayurveda College

Vadodara Gujarat, India.

EMAIL: surendraasoni@gmail.com

Mobile No. +91 9408441150

Courtesy & Thanks: 

for Case Photographs and reports

Vaidya Vivek Savant
Disha Ayu. Clinic & Panchakarma Center
IInd Floor
Warris heights
Opposite Ellora Palace
Pune Satara Road
Pune, Maharashtra, India
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email:vdviveksavant06@gmail.com