WhatsApp Discussion Series 44: 'Ojas-discussion' by Dr. D.C. Katoch, Prof. Ramakant Chulet, Dr. Pawan Madaan, Dr. Anupama Patra, Dr. Pankaj Chhayani, Prof. KSR Prasad, Dr. B.K. Mishra, Dr. Arvind Aggarwal and Others.
[5/27, 20:58] Dr Mitesh:
Kya hum log HIV ki comparison rajyaxma se kar skte he ya nahi ?
Plz is bat par apni ray de !
[5/27, 21:00] Trivendra Sharma Jpr:
Nahin karsakerajyakshma na TB hai na he HIV !
TB is kshayaj kaas, not rajyakshma .
Rajyakshma apne aap mein sankraman janya vyadhi nahin hain, rajyakshma ka he rogi jab sankramit ho jaata hai tab vo kshayaj kaas / TB ka rogi ho jaata hai
Rajyakshma ki pravriddhavastha mein he immunity down hone pr TB / kshayaj kaas hoti hai.
[5/27, 21:06] Bharat Padhar Vd:
Shosh is the aupasargic rog according to Sushrut Acharya.
[5/27, 21:11] Trivendra Sharma Jpr:
According to sushrut shosh-
sukra kshaya janya,
vriddhavaatha janya,
vyayayam janya,
vrin janya,
urah-kshat janya.
Lekin sabhi shosh aupsargik nahin hai, vann-urah kahat mein infection hota hai, lekin Baki mein nahin, esliye likha hai, vyayam Aur vriddh etc k shosh mein upsarg nahin hai
[5/27, 23:15] Dr Surendra A Soni:
Yes !
You are right Dr. Mitesh ! Many scholars accept/correlates the varied clinical picture of yakshma with HIV. Many also say that varied clinical presentation of yakshma denotes the TB infections in different parts of the body.
We may say that we ayurved scholars have no specific system to establish such facts. We don't have such council or organization that can clarify the controversial topics.
Please guide regarding this issue.
[5/27, 23:17] Dr Mitesh KS:
Mene isliye kaha kyuki rajyaxma k jo 6 aur 11 rup kahe gaye he woh HIV me bhi rahate he aur treatment me bhi kaha gya he k harshan tt karana agar HIV wala patient jo khush rahe toh wo bhi jyada jita hai.
Agar hum hiv ki avastha dekhe to pehla laxan hame fever aur bodyache milta he aur badme dusre complication sharu hote he rajyaxma me bhi trirup kaha he uske laxan bhi milte he so I just ask about this.
[5/27, 23:21] Dr Surendra A Soni:
True.....
Even "Ati-vyavay' is also mentioned as a cause of Yakshma.
[5/27, 23:21] Dr Mitesh KS: Rt Sir !
[5/27, 23:26] Dr Surendra A Soni:
This should be noted that *Oja-kshaya* is common phenomenon in either Yakshma, Shosha / or TB or HIV.
We can say these all disorders covered under broad umbrella of Oja-kshaya.
[5/27, 23:31] Dr Surendra A Soni:
पिच्छिलं बहलं विस्रं हरितं श्वेतपीतकम् ।
कासमानो *रसं* यक्ष्मी निष्ठीवति१ *कफानुगम्* ॥५१॥
What a great observation by Charak....
He says that....
*rasam nishthivati*....
Protein part is expelled out in form/process of expectoration which is main reason for continuous deterioration further.
[5/27, 23:44] Anupma Patra Dr.:
I also compare AIDS with Rajyakshma.
Agar ayurved waale isko seriously lein to AIDS ko thik karne ki challenge bhi kar sakte hein. Kyun ki suru mein saare lakshan nahin milte hein.
[5/28, 05:02] Pankaj Chhayani dr:
Kapha is Mala of Rasadhatu. There is Dhatvagnimandya so further Dhatu is not being produced and Mala (Kapha) is produced. मली भवति तत प्रायः !
[5/28, 06:20] Prof. Ramakant Chulet:
मलीभवति तत् प्राय:
कल्पते किंतिद् औजसे .. इनको और भी नज़दीक ले आता है तथा विस्रंस व व्यापत् व क्षय की प्राप्तिकारक संभव है !
[5/28, 10:18] Dr Surendra A Soni: Right Guruji !
[5/31, 09:10] Dr Mitesh:
Hello Guruji !
Ayurveda me jo oj kaha gya he usko hum kisase compare kar skte he
Plz aapaki ray de.
[5/31, 12:04] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:
मेरे समझ से आयुर्वेद के ओज को इन्सुलिन से compare कर सकते हैं।
[5/31, 12:17] pawan madan Dr:
please enlighten about your thinking behind this ......
Dr. Anupama !
[5/31, 12:19] Anupma Patra Dr.:
Sir ,as per the symptoms of ojakshya there is no direct similarity of it with yakshma or shosha. Rather oja is a common entity related with every diseases.
[5/31, 12:27] Anupma Patra Dr.:
Sir after going through the above shloka this relationship spontaneously come to my mind. I am trying to compare the physical property of human insulin with characteristics of oja but I am not getting that quality anywhere .
Confirmation only possible through this.
[5/31, 12:29] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:
Means not getting the information about the quality of pure human insulin.
One clue is, usually changes of blood sugar detected in many diseases even if it is not diabetes. Wrongly modern doctors diagnose as diabetes in such cases but as per my understanding these are the ojakshya lakshana due to prolong suffering by any diseases.
[5/31, 12:50] pawan madan Dr:
OKK...lets leave the physical characteristics for a while......Are the functions of insulin in the body similar to the functions as ascribed to Oja in the texts...?
[5/31, 12:54] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad:
ओज=बल=प्राकृत श्लेष्मा(श्लेष्मिक ओज)
[5/31, 13:12] pawan madan Dr:
कफ वर्गे भवेत शुक्रम पित्तवर्गे च शोणितम = हरिवन्श वर्व १, अस्थान ४०, श्लोक ४२
This reference gives an indication that OJA can be a group of similarily acting entities having some similar properties.
Why ojus can be a group of substances?
-as all tail, ghrita, meda, majjaa, vasaa and mastishka sneha ---- are called by SNEHA --- CHARAK SUTRA 1/86 AND SUSHRUTA sharira 4/13
ओजः पुनः मधुर स्वभावम तद्यदा रौक्श्याद वायुः कशायत्वेन अभिसन्सृजय मूत्राशये अभिवहति तदा मधुमेहम करोति च. – चरक निदान ४/३७
और – चरक सूत्र १७/८०
ओज शुक्र का सार है – डलहण सुश्रुत १५/२१ पर
ओज प्राकृत श्लेष्मा है – चरक सुत्र १७/११७
[5/31, 14:16] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:
Sir considering the quality of oja as described in samhita it is seems to be a particular substance . We are practically seeing the bala heen conditions of diabetic patient due to lack of insulin.
सारे विद्वजन मिलके कौशिश करेंगे तो सत्यासत्य अवस्य निकल आएगा।
[5/31, 14:17] Dr Surendra A Soni:
Glucose is one of the entities close to Ojas rather than Insulin according to Prof. Satyendra Ojha Sir.
[5/31, 14:19] Dr Surendra A Soni:
Sarva-dhatu saar !!
[5/31, 14:23] Priy ranjan tiwari Dr.:
dalhan ne oj KO sukra ka sneha vridhavagbhatt ne shukra ka Saar vagbhatta ne shukra ka mala kaha hai
[5/31, 14:49] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:
Sir whenever total available description of a ayurvedic entity is matched completely with a modern entity then only we may called it as same. I am not 100% sure about insulin but it is one of my intuition. I am searching prove for it .
But I am doubtful about glucose,it is more similar with kapha.
[5/31, 14:59] Dr Surendra A Soni:
Hypoglycemia is fatal.... Immediately Glucose is life saving not Insulin....
[5/31, 15:10] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:
Sir in ojakshya also immediate death not described. It may be a last happening.
[5/31, 15:16] Dr Surendra A Soni:
हाइपोग्लाइसीमिया से तो मृत्यु होती है ना ??
[5/31, 15:55] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:
सर शारीर में टोटल एवरेज ग्लूकोस कितना है ?
[5/31, 15:57] Dr Surendra A Soni:
It is not in fixed quantity.... It's in range....
You know.....
[5/31, 16:02] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr:
Average is 70-110 mg fasting .
In hiv,TB, in old age it remains the same.
[5/31, 16:04] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:
Sir I am trying to know total amount in the body ?
[5/31, 16:08] Prof. KSR Prasad Tachnoayurveda:
But it is the base for all
5500 ML x 70mg = 385gms
5500 x 110 = 605 gms
Rather 400 to 600 gms
This is static what about consumption needs calculation
There are 4 calories in 1 gram of Granulated Sugar. Calorie breakdown: 0% fat, 100% carbs, 0% protein.
Recommended daily calorie
So we require around 600gms of sugars daily.
[5/31, 16:16] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:
Thank u very much sir.
My intension to know about it is,this amount is higher than the normal amount of oja mentioned in literature.
[5/31, 16:26] Prof. KSR Prasad Tachnoayurveda:
Sugar is not ojus.
[5/31, 16:41] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: Yes sir !
[5/31, 16:43] Radheshyam Soni Dr.:
I think ojus is ojus nither sugar nor insulin.
ओज को ओज ही रहने दो, कोई नाम ना दो !
[5/31, 16:44] pawan madan Dr:
तन्त्रान्तरे तु ओजःशब्देन रसोऽप्युच्यते, जीवशोणितमप्योजःशब्देनामनन्ति केचित्, ऊष्माणमप्योजःशब्देनापरे वदन्ति||१९||
- DALAHANA ON sushruta sutra 15/19
DALAHANA – RASA is also called OJA, RAKTA is also called OJA, USHMAA is also called OJA --- in some other texts
CHAKRAPAANI on this says – oja is present in all the body but especially heart is its place, because oja moves from the heart to all the body parts through the vessels connected to heart so as to reach each and every avayava of body.
[5/31, 16:49] Mayur Surana Dr.:
Oja can be compared to human properdin system..
[5/31, 17:00] pawan madan Dr:
this is something new.....
this is something new.....
[5/31, 17:03] pawan madan Dr: Factor P...
[5/31, 17:03] Arvind Aggarwal Dr. Physiology:
Average 70-110 mg glucose per 100 ml of blood, thus there is 4 gm glucose is circulating in a normal healthy adult's body.
[5/31, 17:09] Arvind Aggarwal Dr. Physiology:
Hypothesis
Circulating glucose (para oja) remains in a fix quantity while deposited (apara oja) can vary.
Para oja ke kshaya se mrityu, apar oja ke kshaya se vyadhi.
Oja (normoglycemia) ka karma hai bala.
It's interesting to correlate body glucose with oja.
Oja can be considered a multifacetate identity and various things of modern science can be correlated to it... And glucose seems one of them.
[5/31, 17:19] pawan madan Dr:
thats the most important statement..
[5/31, 17:28] Arvind Aggarwal Dr.:
Thankyou boss for giving a loading dose of fuel to the brain.
[5/31, 17:32] Prof. KSR Prasad Tachnoayurveda:
☺I have to check physiology book.
[5/31, 17:36] pawan madan Dr:
तत्र बलेन स्थिरोपचितमांसता सर्वचेष्टास्वप्रतिघातः स्वरवर्णप्रसादो बाह्यानामाभ्यन्तराणां च करणानामात्मकार्यप्रतिपत्तिर्
केचिदन्यथा व्याख्यानयन्ति- “बाह्यानां श्रोत्रत्वक्चक्षुर्जिह्वानासि
मांसं चेह बहिर्दृश्यमानकार्यतयोक्तं, तेनेतरेषामपि धातूनां स्थिरत्वमुपचितत्वमनेनैवोक्तं ज्ञेयम्| . . . सर्वचेष्टास्वप्रतीघात इति अत्र बलरूपतयौजसो बलसम्पाद्यक्रियास्वप्रतिघातो ज्ञेयः| बाह्यानां पाय्वादीनां कर्मेन्द्रियरूपकरणानाम्, आभ्यन्तराणां चक्षुरादीनां मनःसहितानाम्, आत्मकार्यमेषां विसर्गादि तथा बुद्ध्यादि तथा चिन्तनादि च| प्रतिपत्तिरत्रानुष्ठानं, तेन सर्वेन्द्रियाणां स्वकार्यप्रतिपत्तिरोजोनुग्रहा
All these actions depend on the OJA.
What could be the factors in the body which maintain all these properties and actions?
– glucose or electrolytes or ions or vitamins or minerals or carbohydrate or protein or ??????
-all the above functions get disturbed especially electrolytes are disturbed significantly…..!!!!!!!!!!!!
[5/31, 17:38] Kapil kapoor:
If glucose is oja then drinking glucose solution should increase the oja
Following statement appears null & void
रसादीनां शुक्रान्तानां धातूनां यत् परं तेजस्तत् खल्वोजः ! (सु. सू. १५)
[5/31, 17:44] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:
Thank u sir.
सर मॉडर्न साइंस जाकर कहाँ पहुँच गया है और हम एक substance, जिसका पर्टिकुलर अमाउंट हो,कलर हो, वर्ण हो,कर्म हो,इतना कुछ ज्ञात होते हुए भी शारीर के अंदर कौन सा चीज़ है जान्ने की कौशिश न करें तो हमारे एनाटोमी ,फिजियोलॉजी में MD रहने का क्या मतलब ??
[5/31, 17:53] Dr Mitesh: Rt sr
[5/31, 17:53] Dr Mitesh:
Oj xay aur bhi disease me kha gaya he pandu ka ek sign bhi ojxay he.
[5/31, 17:56] Dr Narinder:
Jivanam the rakta karma is interpreted as ojo vriddhikaram by aruna datta.
[5/31, 17:58] radheshyam Soni dr:
यदि ओज ग्लूकोस है तो शरीर मे बढ़ने से रोग क्यों ?
यदि ओज इन्सुलिन है तो भी अधिक मात्रा में होने पर मृत्यु की संभावना क्यों ?
विचार कीजिये।
[5/31, 18:01] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:
सर आप के सारे options में इन्सुलिन को क्यों नहीं जोड़ रहे हैं ???
शारीर में ग्लूकोस ही utilize नहीं होगी,energy ही नहीं होगी तो क्या उपरोक्त कर्म में वधाप्राप्ति नहीं होगी????
[5/31, 18:05] pawan madan Dr:
true...
the point is I think ....a particular chemical / material / medium / substance can behave like Oja at different times at different places. This is something like e.g take adrenaline/nor adrenaline -- they behave differently at different places at different times.......!
Vichaarniye....
[5/31, 18:07] Arvind Aggarwal Dr.:
Oja-glucose relationship is just a hypothesis which is partial true at some places... But not always... We may find some other materials also.
[5/31, 18:07] pawan madan Dr: reality.....
[5/31, 18:08] Arvind Aggarwal Dr. Physiology:
Rasa sankhya nirdharan krne k liye bhi to sambhasha ka sahara lena pada tha.
[5/31, 18:10] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:
सर इन्सुलिन अधिक होने से मृत्यु तो सायद ही होगा ?
भूक लगेगी तो खाना खाएंगे अगर नहीं खाते हैं तो कुछ दिन तो चलेगा ही।
[5/31, 18:11] Arvind Aggarwal Dr. Physiology:
And blood glucose is it's one face... When it is utilized... It serves many other functions.
[5/31, 18:12] Arvind Aggarwal Dr. Physiology:
Isi glucose ka jab paak hota h to energy banti h... Wagera wagera bahut kuch h janne ko.. Kevan blood glucose level pe concentrate na kiya jaye.
[5/31, 18:12] radheshyam Soni Dr.:
इन्सुलिन आधान की अधिकता से hypoglycemia होकर शॉक।
[5/31, 18:14] Arvind Aggarwal Dr. Physiology:
bala bhi keval oja ka hi karya nhi h... Mala bhi bala ban jata h paristhiti k anusar e.g. rajyakshma
[5/31, 18:28] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:
और जा भी सकता है व्यक्ति !
[5/31, 19:12] Dr Surendra A Soni:
१ वेदोत्पत्त्यध्यायः
*प्राणिनां पुनर्मूलमाहारो बलवर्णौजसां च ।*
स षट्सु रसेष्वायत्तः; रसाः पुनर्द्रव्याश्रयाः; द्रव्याणि पुनरोषधयः ।
तास्तु द्विविधाः- स्थावरा जङ्गमाश्च ।।२८।।
डल्हणः-
संशोधनादिष्वाहारस्य प्राधान्यं दर्शयितुमाह- प्राणिनामित्यादि। मूलमिति मूलमिव मूलं, सम्भवहेतुत्वात्; शुक्रशोणितं तावदाहारादेव जायते यद्गर्भजननसमर्थम्। न केवलं प्राणिनां मूलं बलवर्णोजसां च। एतेन प्राणिनामाहारादेवोत्पत्तिस्थि
[5/31, 19:17] Dr B K Mishra Ji:
साधुवाद मान्यवर !
[5/31, 19:20] Anupma Patra Dr:
Sir braindeath हो कर संन्यास होने की ज्यादा संभावना है बजाय सीधे डेथ । सामान चीज़ ग्लूकोस के लिए भी।
[5/31, 19:28] Anupma Patra Dr.:
एक बार इन्सुलिन को ध्यान में लेकर सोच कर देखिये।
[5/31, 19:29] Dr B K Mishra Ji:
किसी से भी Compare करने की क्या आवश्यकता है, और क्या लाभ हो सकता है।ओज का शास्त्रों में विस्तार से वर्णन किया हुआ है। उसको उसी रूप में समझना उचित और आयुर्वेद के हित में है।
अग्नि, प्राण देह प्रकृति को किस से Compare किया गया है। Compare करने की प्रवृति ने आयुर्वेद का बहुत नुकसान किया है।
[5/31, 19:40] Dr Surendra A Soni: right !
[5/31, 19:44] Anupma Patra Dr.:
सर मेरे समझ से एनाटोमी या फिजियोलॉजी के तत्व जिनके कुछ परिमाण वर्णन है उनको हम compare कर सकते हैं। उससे हमारे विस्वास मजबूत होगा। तथा अय्यर्वेद हे कुछ उह्य तथ्य को समझना भी आसान हो जाएगा। हमें compare करने में भोलेही मुश्किल हो रही है। पर मॉडर्न साइंस के लिए ये बहूत आसान है। हम बोलते हैं हम दानों पढ़ते हैं तो कम से कम उनके सामने हमारा मूल्य बिलकुल न्यून न हो जाए 🤔। क्यों की आगे दानों साइंस के बीच में कोलैबोरेशन होने जा रहा है।
[5/31, 20:48] Katoch sir:
प्राकृतस्तु बलं श्लेष्मा, स चैवौजः उच्यते। Accordingly, Oja is a functional entity made up of all kaphatmak bhava in the body system and it can not be isolated in physical form but manifests its functionality at body system as a whole and at cellular/tissue level in subtle form -called Ardhanjali Oja and Ashtabindu Oja respectively.
[5/31, 20:49] Daya Shnkrji Sir:
रसस्चैवोज संख्यात: !
रसस्चैवोज संख्यात: !
[5/31, 20:53] Chulet Sir Nia:
Yes, why not, it's easy to prepare, what is purpose and project, I can prepare, it's time consuming, if u have time u can get it .
Ayurveda in india , is in the hands of IFS officers, if u r interested , something better can be expected. Pandey ji !
[5/31, 21:02] pawan madan Dr:
All entities ib ayurveda has been described based on functional characteristics.
There can be everal thongs acting as Oja at different timea as we say....hormones......there can be several different chemicals as hormones performing some/many similar functions.
[5/31, 21:25] Anupma Patra Dr.:
Yes sir, we cannot isolate the entity like shukra, oja in physical form because they are hormone and directly mix with blood but ,cannot we understand them in modern language ?
[5/31, 22:04] Katoch sir:
Epistemological concepts of two systems can not be equated practically except for the ease of possible understanding /clarity.
[5/31, 22:14] shekhar singh MP:
Everything in Ayurvedic Anatomy / Physiology can not be compared with Modern Anatomy/Physiology.
For example, Yoga says there are 72,000 naadi in human body. You can't see on dissecting Table. It doesn't mean Yoga is wrong.
You can't compare Vata,Pitta,Kaf with any Modern term.
Than why exercising over OJA ?
[5/31, 22:15] Katoch sir: Very right!
[5/31, 22:16] Katoch sir:
Yes, Epistemological concepts of two systems can not be equated practically and holistically except for the ease of possible understanding /clarity.
[5/31, 22:23] Arvind Aggarwal Dr. Physiology:
Yes Sir,
But all the researches of ayu are going on modern medical disorders rather then ayu line of treatment e.g. BGR34 etc for DM, not for prameha.
[5/31, 22:25] Pankaj Chhayani dr:
रसादिनां शुक्रान्तानां यत् परं तेज - can we take as healthy condition of Dhatu is itself Oja.
[5/31, 22:25] Katoch sir:
Contemporary Healthcare challenges can be addressed only by this way.
Yes, oja is essence of all dhatus.
Ideally real practice of Ayurveda needs that approach, but most of our practitioners do not or fail to do that.
[5/31, 22:29] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad: गभँ रसाद्रस=ओज ?
[5/31, 22:31] pawan madan Dr:
Can be compared.
But
the parametres of comparing are different/specific....
...not one to one anantomical......but physiological/functional/
E.g. Vaata can be any thing/ material/energy/medium which fullfills the criteria og having one/more/all Gunas of Vaata.... Rukaho, sheeta, sooksham, chal, vishada, khara.......
This way Vaata may include many entitiea and can be compared.
Thia type of atudy /comparison /evolution is necessary to make understand new-age students of ayurveda in a better way.
[5/31, 22:31] Arvind Aggarwal Dr. Physiology:
Research on ayurvedic diagnostic procedures/tools/techniques/
[5/31, 22:33] Arvind Aggarwal Dr. Physiology:
Iska ek fayda jarur h ki bgr jaisi medicines ko ek allopath bhi waise hi use krega jaise ek ayurvedacharya... And If it is so then what is the need to understand the concepts of ayu ?
[6/1, 00:28] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:
As per my understanding every anatomy and physiology of ayurveda specially sushrut samhita can be compared or understood perfectly in terms of modern science because physical body of ayurveda and modern are not different and ayurveda is scientific not imaginary.
I cannot comment about yoga perfectly. it also may be compared.
Perhaps after few years we will hear about these comparison, if not possible through us then somebody else will do that.
[6/1, 06:33] pawan madan Dr:
True......
Ayurveda is not imaginary.
[6/1, 06:37] Katoch sir: Welcome such thoughts !
[6/1, 15:22] Dr B K Mishra Ji:
रसादिनां शुक्रान्तानां यत् परं तेज - can we take as healthy condition of Dhatu is itself Oja.
[6/1, 15:26] Dr B K Mishra Ji: ओज Bio- Essence
[6/1, 15:34] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad:
शरीररसस्नेह प्राणा यत्र प्रतिष्ठिता !
[6/1, 15:39] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad:
यत् सारमादौ गभँस्य यतद्गभँरसाद्रसः। It's nourishing fluid of embryo that means it's responsible to start life.
शरीररसस्नेह प्राणा यत्र प्रतिष्ठिता- It's essence of all the tissue elements that means it's sustaining life.
[6/1, 16:45] pawan madan Dr:
There are too many thing which are responibe.for sustainig life....
[6/1, 16:51] Satish Sharma ji Dr:
ojas ko insulin mankar ojj ka mahatwa kam na kare kyoki
1 parojj_8vindupraman.
2 aparojj_
1 parojj_8vindupraman.
2 aparojj_
vishransh -vyapat -chhaya. .
[6/1, 18:05] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:
Sir healthy condition of dhatus themselves are separate entity having different pramaan, feature and functions etc . So how can we compare it with a different thing along with its own existence ?
Sir any particular comparison as per modern ?
Can we give a perticular name to that ??
[6/1, 18:15] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad:
No idea..
But Oja is LAJAGANDHA, MADHURASA, SARPIVARNA...
We should also focus on this characteristics...
[6/1, 18:37] Dr B K Mishra Ji:
आदरणीया
आप modern साथ Comparison क्यों करना चाहती हैं, अब तक Comparison. नहीं करने से आयुर्वेद को क्या हानि होगयी, और अब करने से क्या लाभ हो सकता है।आयुर्वेद के वात का ही Modern के किसी भी भाव के साथ Comparison नहीं हो सकता।ओज भी आयुर्वेद की मौलिक अवधारणा है, अतः ओज को ओज ही रहने दे तो अच्छा है।
[6/1, 19:15] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:
सर आप हमेसा मेरे सोच का साथ देकर मेरे मनोबल को बढ़ाते हैं। अब के लिए में आप की बात को मान लेती हूँ।
इसके पीछे मेरा कुछ लंबी सोच छुपी हुई है। मेरे हिसाब से आयुर्वेद मॉडर्न साइंस से बहूत ऊपर है। एक दिन ये विज्ञान, मॉडर्न साइंस में जो भी गलत चल रही है उसको सही रास्ता दिखाएगी।
स्वस्थ समाज का जो कल्पना आयुर्वेद दिखाया है वो केवल आयुर्वेद नहीं कर सकता। मॉडर्न साइंस के साथ मिलकर ही संभव है। उनको आयुर्वेद के महत्व को समझाने के लिए उनके भाषा में समझाना पड़ेगा। अगर ये दिन न आये तो एक दिन वो इसको खुद समझ लेंगे। मेरा सोच ये है कि हम भी कुछ इस कॉर्य में मदद करें तो फिर हमारा इम्पोर्टेंस भी बनी रहेगी।आज हमें ऐसा लग रहा है कि ये अलग तत्व हैं पर मेरे समझ से ये अलग नहीं हैं। कुछ भी फिजिकल तत्व मॉडर्न साइंस को अंजान नहीं है।सिबाय मन ,आत्मा आदि कुछ आध्यात्मिक तत्व को छोड़कर।अभी तो आत्मा का भी प्रमाण निकाल लिए हैं।
ठीक है सर में इस टॉपिक को येही मेरे तरफ से बंद करती हूँ। जब तक कुछ ठोस प्रमाण न मिल जाए ।
[6/1, 19:18] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:
Sir just go through the role of human insulin for body. It is not a small thing. I never want to proceed more about it.
[6/1, 19:29] Dr B K Mishra Ji:
आयुर्वेद मॉडर्न साइन्स से बहुत ऊपर है।
उनको आयुर्वेद का महत्त्व समझाने के लिए उनके भाषा मे समझाना पडेगा !
I don't think so.. samjna Hoga to Ayurveda k terms me hi samaj jayenge.
And days ago when discussion was going madm u told that modern ya foreigner's Ayurveda k terms me hi samjna chahte hai, and abhi aisa keyhole Rhi hai.. iisn't it contradictory ??
[6/1, 20:16] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:
Sir this is for initial stage to create faith about importance of Ayurveda. Once we able to establish it automatically they will go through detail of it.
[6/1, 20:37] Katoch sir:
यह इन्सुलिन अष्टबिन्दु ओज है या अर्धान्जलि प्रमाण वाला? यदि इन्सुलिन ओज है तो जिन व्यक्तियों में ओजोदुष्टि, ओजोभ्रंश या ओजोक्शय के लक्षण मिलते हैं उस स्थिति में क्या इन्सुलिन की मात्रा या गुणकर्मों में दुष्टि होती है?
वातिक प्रमेह या मधुमेह में क्या इन्सुलिन मूत्रमार्ग से निष्कासित होती है? - डा अनुपमा अपना पक्ष इन प्रश्नों पर बताएँ ।
[6/1, 21:05] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad:
___वाद परतंत्रावलोकनम्।
____ बुद्धि मेधाकरो गणः।।
[6/1, 21:12] Dr B K Mishra Ji:
आयुर्वेद की दृष्टि से देखें तो इन्सुलिन पित्तवर्गीय द्रव्य है, जबकि ओज कफ वर्गीय है।
[6/1, 21:44] Katoch sir:
इन्सुलिन पित्तवर्गीय या वातवर्गीय ? सुना था हार्मोन्स वात जैसे कर्म करते हैं ।
[6/1, 21:51] Dr B K Mishra Ji:
आयुर्वेद के दृष्टिकोण से तो हार्मोन्स की सक्रियता वात की प्रेरणा से ही होगी, इन्सुलिन कार्य तो पित्त जैसा ही करता है।
[6/1, 21:52] Dr B K Mishra Ji: पित्तम् पंगु कफ पंगु,,,
[6/1, 21:53] Katoch sir: Wrong Mishra Ji !
[6/1, 21:58] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad:
I think insulin is not directly responsible for biotransformation of glucose, it just helps in opening door(receptors) for glucose, so it seems more near to Vata.
[6/1, 22:13] Dr B K Mishra Ji:
फिर इन्सुलिन को एक्टिवेट कौन करता है,
निश्चित रूप से वात।
,,समीरणो अग्नेः,
यदि वात वर्ग का है, तो वात के प्राण ,समान या व्यान में से कौन से भेद में समाहित कर सकते हैं।
[6/1, 22:17] Satish Sharma ji Dr: saman vayu ke
[6/1, 22:24] Dr Surendra A Soni:
I think pran vayu is more close to this because it's important for survival/existence.
[6/1, 22:25] Dr B K Mishra Ji:
लेकिन वायु का स्वरूप तो अमूर्त होता है, जबकि इन्सुलिन द्रव होता है।
किसी भी प्रकार से आयुर्वेद के वात को अभी तक कृत्रिम रूप से बनाना तो दूर, पूरी तरह समझ भी नही जा सका है, जबकि कृत्रिम रूप से बनाया गया इन्सुलिन मार्केट में खूब उपलब्ध है।
[6/1, 22:28] pawan madan Dr:
Right to many extents..
Ayurveda describes everything on a different level.
We need to ubderstand that.
Here the question is not of *comparing* but incorporating every nook and corner of modern concepts *under the broad and holistic concepts of ayurveda*.
[6/1, 22:29] pawan madan Dr:
Yesss..
That we have to digest by making..... *modern under the ayurveda* ......
[6/1, 22:30] Dr B K Mishra Ji:
प्राणवायु का कार्यक्षेत्र ऊर्ध्वंग है,तथा तथा कार्य अन्न के अन्दर प्रवेश कराने तक सीमित है।पाचन नही।
[6/1, 22:30] Arvind Aggarwal Dr. Physiology:
Vata - Gati - Responsible for carrying the fuel materials at right place by opening appropriate channels etc.
Pitta/Agni - Responsible for their catabolism and producing energy.
Kapha - Responsible for utilization of that energy to reproduce or nourish dhatu/body structures.
As per understanding
[6/1, 22:32] Dr Surendra A Soni:
Serological part of the blood including T Lymphocytes etc may be taken as modern counter part of Ojas. That is taken as ras dhatu also. This is mainly responsible for immunity.
This way all diseases in which ojas is affected may be covered grossly. Glucose is also component of ras dhatu aahar ras.
[6/1, 22:33] Satish Sharma ji Dr:
kintu insulin drav rup sasneh gun hone se Pitt bhi manana padega kintu pachakam til Manama syat se pachak pitt to ho nahi sakata phir konasa pitt manenge atah insulin ko insulin hi rahane de sir ji !
[6/1, 22:33] pawan madan Dr:
When a hormone is producing vaata gunaas..it can be said vaatvargiya......if and when producing pitta gunas.....can be called pitta vargiya.....!
[6/1, 22:33] Arvind Aggarwal Dr. Physiology:
I think we can better understand the things by going on panchmahabhuta theory... Unke bhi guna karma bataye gaye hain.
[6/1, 22:33] Dr Surendra A Soni:
Sparsh ka karya kis vayu ka hai....??
Mishra Sir !!
[6/1, 22:34] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad:
Yes sir, but I understood PRANA as below:
"PRA" means towards and "ANA" means movement.
PRANA means " movement towards core of the body(or cell). Insulin helps in movement of glucose towards core of cell, so by this way it's PRANA.
[6/1, 22:34] Arvind Aggarwal Dr. Physiology:
Dosho k bhed just unki functioning ko easily samajhne k liye h... Aisa koi sthan nahi h sharir me jaha koi dosha na ho.
[6/1, 22:36] Arvind Aggarwal Dr. Physiology:
Jo karma aur sthan dosha bhedo k antargat varnit nahi h unko ham kis bhed me rkhenge ?
[6/1, 22:36] pawan madan Dr:
Praan vaayu kaa kaarya sarv sharir hai...bus prefered karmo ke kaaran urdhvag kahaa jaa saktaa hai.
[6/1, 22:36] Arvind Aggarwal Dr. Physiology:
Wahi mahakashaya wali baat h... Mandanam vyavaharaya.
Sira me tridosha ki upastithi batai h
Every body part has tridosha in it... And every dosha works there.
[6/1, 22:38] Dr B K Mishra Ji:
व्यान वायु का।
व्यानः सर्वशरीरगः !
[6/1, 22:41] Arvind Aggarwal Dr. Physiology:
Amurta to electron bhi h... Lekin uski bhi speed pta laga li gayi h... Aur uski physical characteristics pe bahut kuch science ka part tika hua h... Ab kisne dekha h usko itne tej bhagte hue.
[6/1, 22:41] Katoch sir:
But insulin is not an enzyme responsible for digestion or catabolism. Vaat is considered equivalent to nervous system and Endocrinal secretions called harmones. Both these entitities act as Va Gati Gandhanayo !
[6/1, 22:43] Dr Surendra A Soni:
Sparsh pran-vayu ke adhin hai...!
It's lost in neurological ailments.
[6/1, 22:43] Dr Surendra A Soni: Perfect Sir !!
[6/1, 22:45] Katoch sir:
Vayu aur Vaat are different. Vaat is panchbhoutik with predominance of Vayu and Akash mahabhoot. But Vayu is Vayu only.
[6/1, 22:45] Dr B K Mishra Ji:
यदि हम इन्सुलिन पर विचार ही नही करे तो आयुर्वेद की कौन सी अवधारणा की क्या क्षति हो जायेगी।
[6/1, 22:46] Kapil kapoor:
Insulin:
Utpatti sthana ke aadhar par: kapha pitta
Karya kshetra ke adhar par : vata
Karya soukshmayata ke aadhar par : Vata
Karya kaal ke aadhar par : vata pitta
Kshaya ke aadhar par : dosh roopak kapha vridhikar
Vrudhi ke Adhar par :
Bala karak kapha hrasak
Tough to draw a single line around Insulin
My understanding !
[6/1, 22:47] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey: Interesting indeed
[6/1, 22:48] Kapil kapoor: thnx
[6/1, 22:48] Dr Surendra A Soni:
Comparison of ojas with insulin- totally wrong....!!
Impossible....!! Incorrect...!!
Madhumeh/ojomeha....---- is insulin is coming out through urine....??
Anupama ji !
Please put your view...!!
[6/1, 22:50] Dr B K Mishra Ji:
हम इन्सुलिन के इतने पीछे क्यों पड़े है।
[6/1, 22:50] Arvind Aggarwal Dr. Physiology:
Yes sir... Some ayu vidvatjana are totally relying on ayu theories and successfully working for ayu.
Some are having above properties + trying to moving it by using the drivers of modern science.
Both are right... At least both are doing something good.
[6/1, 22:51] Dr Surendra A Soni:
जो तथ्य पूछा / रखा गया है उस पर मन्तव्य तो देना ही हैं ना......
[6/1, 22:53] pawan madan Dr:
Everything which is having Ruksh sookshm sheet vishad khar etc can be called Vaata.....not to be compared with only one or two entities....
[6/1, 22:53] Dr Surendra A Soni:
Please add as a component of a type /subtype of dhatwagni mediator....!!
[6/1, 22:54] Katoch sir:
Because Diabetes results from absolute or relative deficiency of insulin and Diabetic patients come for Ayurveda treatment. If the Ayurveda doctor does not know the role and effects of insulin he can not understand why and Diabetes developed in that patient.
[6/1, 22:55] Arvind Aggarwal Dr. Physiology:
Exactly sir... Manthan jaruri hai !
[6/1, 22:55] pawan madan Dr:
Thats an important t different point sir....
[6/1, 22:57] Dr B K Mishra Ji:
प्राणवायु और प्राण तत्व दोनों भिन्न हैं।
प्राण तत्व 13 बताये गये हैं।
अग्निःसोमो वायुःसत्वम् रजस्तमः पंचेंद्रियाणी भूतात्मेति प्राणः।
सु शा
[6/1, 22:57] Nandkishor Dadhich Dr:
Ayurveda,the science of life propoundedby acharya is based on tridosha saptadhatu and elementary structures presented in the body and hridya is one among them .It is said to be one among the pranayatma that is injured to death of individuals it is the site of sadhaka pitta para oja atma Manas etc.
[6/1, 22:58] Katoch sir:
Raise your hands who diagnose and treat Madhumeha without investigations.
[6/1, 22:58] Dr Surendra A Soni: no one ! i think !
[6/1, 22:58] Kapil kapoor:
Insulin when released
Provides poshak poorva dhatu to the respective dhatvagni so as to form par dhatu....
[6/1, 22:59] pawan madan Dr:
Important but different....
*We must start thinking interms of gunas and karmas instead of in terms of dravys*.
there can be different types of dravysa exhibiting/manifesting/
*We should start accepting this as early as posaible*
Its my understanding.
[6/1, 22:59] Arvind Aggarwal Dr. Physiology:
Maine to aj tak madhumeha ka pt hi nhi dekha... DM ka dekha h.
[6/1, 23:01] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad:
Most of pts are of Prameha Purvaroopa.
[6/1, 23:01] Arvind Aggarwal Dr. Physiology:
All the physiological functions of various components of the body can be classified into 3 classes only -
Due to vaat
Due to pitta
Due to kapha
[6/1, 23:03] Arvind Aggarwal Dr. Physiology:
Yes Pankaj sir
Hasta paad tala daha is commonest among them.
[6/1, 23:03] priy rranja tiwari Dr.:
vaat ke gati aur gandhan karm hain gati movement means motor system gandhan suchan means sensory system
insulin vaat nahi ho sakta
insulin ka gun anabolic hota hai wo kaph ke samaan gundharmi ho sakta hai.
[6/1, 23:06] Dr B K Mishra Ji:
किन्तु चरक ने तो इन्सुलिन का कही कोई उल्लेख नही किया।आयुर्वेद में मधुमेह सम्प्राप्ति भेद से दो प्रकार का उल्लेख किया है,
प्रथम आवरणजन्य या सन्तर्पणजन्य
द्वितीय धातुक्षयजन्य या अपतर्पणजन्य
गुरुस्निग्धअम्ललवणानि अतिमात्र समशनताम् , नवमन्नम् च पानं च निद्राम् आस्यासुखानि च। त्यक्तव्यायामचिन्तानाम् , संशोधनमकुर्वताम् । श्लेमा पित्तं च मेदश्च मांसं चाति प्रवर्धते।।
तैः आवृतगतिर्वायुः ओजम् आदाय गच्छति। यदा वस्तिम् तदा कृच्छ्रो मधुमेहः प्रवर्तते।।
स मारुतस्य च पित्तस्य कफस्य च मुहुर्मुहुः ।
दर्शयति आकृतिं गत्वा क्षयम् ,आप्यायते पुनः।।
प्रमेह -मधुमेह सम्प्राप्ति-लक्षण सम्बन्ध
सामान्य सम्प्राप्ति:-
उद्भव- मेदोवह स्रोतस्
संचार- रसायनियां (पित्त, कफ, रक्त का वहन करने वाली ) मूत्रवाहिनियां
आश्रय- मूत्रवह स्रोतस्
अवयव - वस्ति
स्रोतोदुष्टि-मेदोवह, मांसवह, उदकवह, मूत्रवह
द्रव्यसंग्रह - दोष: श्लेमा-क्लेदक , पित्त - पाचक, वात- अपान , व्यान
दूष्य: मेद, मांस, शरीरज क्लेद, ओज(रसौजः- रस रूप ओज -पोषक ओज) रक्त, वसा, मज्जा,लसीका।
लक्षण:- पूर्वरूप
हस्तपादतलदाह - पित्त - उष्णगुणतः
शीतप्रियत्व/पित्त -उष्णगुणतः
स्निग्धगात्रता/श्लेष्मा -स्निग्धगुणतः
पिच्छिलगात्रता/कफ -पिच्छिल
गुरुगात्रता/कफ -गुरु
मधुरआविलमूत्रता/कफ -रसतः, रूपतः
तन्द्रा/कफ -गुरुगुणतः
अंगसाद/वात -कर्मतः
पिपासा/पित्तवृद्धि ,उदकक्षय
बहुअशित्व/पित्त -तीक्ष्णउष्णगुणतः
श्वासदौर्गन्ध्य/पित्त- विस्रगुणतः
दन्ततालुजिह्वा आदि का मलाढ्यत्व/मांस मल वृद्धि
केशजटिलीभाव/कफ -पिच्छिलगुणतः
नखवृद्धि/कफवृद्धि -अस्थिमल वृद्धि
आस्यमाधुर्य/कफवृद्धि- रसतः
हस्तपादसुप्तता/वात- शीत गुणतः
मुखतालुशोष/अप् धातु क्षय- वातवृद्धि
आलस्य/कफवृद्धि- स्थिरगुणतः
देहमल/मांसमलवृद्धि:स्रोतोरोध-
परिदाह/पित्तवृद्धि- उष्णगुणतः
सुप्तांगता/वातवृद्धि- शीतगुणतः
षट्पदपिपीलिकादि मूत्राभिसरण/श्लेष्मा- रसतः
स्वेद/मेदोमल वृद्धि
अंगगन्ध/पित्तवृद्धि-विस्रगुणतः
शिथिलाङ्गता/कफ-मृदुगुणतः
केशवृद्धि/अस्थिमलवृद्धि
[6/1, 23:06] Arvind Aggarwal Dr. Physiology:
Rishiyo ki aur hamari sambhasha me yahi farak h ki unki sambhasha jis topic pe h wahi tak simit h... Aur hamare wali oja - glucose - insuline - dosha ..... Pta nahi kaha jake khatma hogi.
[6/1, 23:07] Katoch sir:
Ayurveda itself says-more is unknown than known. Then how Ayurveda can be complete and full of all knowledge. Ayurveda says-study other shastra also. Then why conventional knowledge is condemned by some Ayurvedists. Be Sthir Budhhi -Sthitpravya friends.
[6/1, 23:07] Dr Surendra A Soni: Great !!
[6/1, 23:09] Dr Surendra A Soni:
Please guide about ojas with its modern correlation...!!
[6/1, 23:09] Dr. Pankaj B. khedkar:
Agree sir !
Agree sir !
[6/1, 23:12] Dr B K Mishra Ji:
किन्तु आयुर्वेद प्रवर्तन काल में कोई तथाकथित आधुनिक एलोपेथी नही थी।
शल्य, शालाक्य, बालरोग, क्षारतंत्र आदि
जितने भी अन्य सम्प्रदाय थे सबका विकृतिविज्ञान तथा चिकित्सा त्रिदोष आधारित थे।अतः कोई टकराव नही था।
[6/1, 23:13] Arvind Aggarwal Dr. Physiology:
Pratyaksham hi alpam... Islie jo bahut kuch apratyaksha hai use janna jaruri h... Aur wahi apratyaksha apta k rupa me uplabdha hai.
Usi ko pratyaksha krne hetu efforts lagana chahiye ham sabko... Aisa nhi h ki insulin ko agar na jane to kya nuksan h... Jabki insulin ko janne ki jimmedari ham par hi chhod gaye acharya.
Well said by katoch sir !
[6/1, 23:16] pawan madan Dr:
Anyrhing which can work in the body and perform the functions of Oja as described in texts can be Called as oja.
It could vary from...
glucose to ATP
proteins to fats
compliments to prostaglandins
or any other thing...
The physical apearance has been desbed in texta based on the naked seen / anumaanita concept by the then scholars or Rishis.
It is interesting to note that this discrepancy in the description of physical appearance and properties will be found for almost all entities ...let it be Rasa or Srotas or Snaayus or other things.
Please correct if wrong..
[6/1, 23:16] Katoch sir:
Just let me tell a small analogy clarifying the situation of knowledge in our Ayurvedists. English teacher asked a 5th class boy to translate लड़की नीचे खड़ी है in to English. Boy said- Misunderstanding,
[6/1, 23:17] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:
सर ओज व्यापाद ,विश्रन्स के लक्षण में इंसुलिन की क्या स्थिति होती है यहाँ तो रिसर्च का विषय है, मेरा उसिपे कोई अनुभव अभी नहीं है। पर बहुत सारे विमारि में शुगर बढ़ा हुआ अवस्य मिलता है जिसमें प्रमेह के लक्षण नहीं मिलते हैं। उनको ओज क्षय के लक्षण में ले सकते हैं।
सर मेरे समझ से वात्तिक प्रमेह का शास्त्र वर्णन के हिसाब से सीधा वसा, मज्जा, मधु जैसे द्रव्य मूत्र मार्ग से निकलते हैं। जिस प्रमेह को हम मधुमेह कह रहे हैं वो कफज प्रमेह है। उस वसा, मज्जा ,घृत जैसा द्रव्य मूत्र मार्ग में निकलने जैसा कंडीशन डायबिटीज में अब सायद ही मिलते हैं। क्यों की मरीज़ पूर्वरूप से ही अपना ट्रीटमेंट चालु कर देते हैं ।अतः उस कंडीशन में इंसुलिन यूरिन के साथ आ रहा है ये नहीं यह एक स्टडी की विषय है।
सर यह विचार मेरे मनमें अचानक आया है और बाद में चिंता करने से बहूत हद तक ठीक लग रही है। आगे तो सबकुछ सिद्ध होगा तभी जाकर कन्फर्म कह सकते हैं।
अगर बायोकेमिस्ट्री के स्पेशलिस्ट से इन्सुलिन की फिजिकल कैरेक्टरिस्टिक के वारेमें आईडिया मिल जाएगा तो निर्णय लेने में आसान हो जायेगी।
[6/1, 23:18] Dr B K Mishra Ji:
तैः (वृद्धि को प्राप्त कफ, पित्त, मांस, मेद आदि)आवृतगतिर्वायुः ओजम् आदाय गच्छति। यदा वस्तिम् तदा कृच्छ्रो मधुमेहः प्रवर्तते।।
[6/1, 23:19] Katoch sir:
Are
Are
Vaidyagan in the group agreed to what Dr Anupama has explained ?
[6/1, 23:20] Nandkishor Dadhich Dr:
The mind cannot be seen separate Ed form the body .psychic weakness can lead to somatic weakness in Ayurveda we talk about low immunity,when all seven dhatus are debilitated.We have a good immune system we can stay healthy.
[6/1, 23:21] pawan madan Dr:
Agreed with the principle but not only..... oja = insulin
[6/1, 23:22] Arvind Aggarwal Dr. Physiology:
Not agree with insulin = oja
Oja ki utpatti ka samadhan hi nahi ho raha is vichar se to.
[6/1, 23:22] pawan madan Dr:
Here lies the role ....together oja is a group of different things acting similar functions..
[6/1, 23:23] Dr Surendra A Soni:
Never !!
I ve put my view...??
How should we understand the role of insulin in other diseases where ojas is also affected like yakshma, kshaya, grahani, pandu etc....??
My question.
Anupama ji !
Anupama ji !
[6/1, 23:24] pawan madan Dr:
Oja is NOT only Insulin.....but at some place ad time.......Insuling MAY behave as oja......!
[6/1, 23:24] Dr B K Mishra Ji:
इन्सुलिन की अधिक मात्रा से तो बचा खुचा ओज भी नष्ट होकर सद्य ही प्राणान्त हो जाता है।
[6/1, 23:24] Katoch sir:
Is it objectively possible to elucidate in a clinical setting ?
[6/1, 23:25] Dr B K Mishra Ji:
Definitely Sir
Definitely Sir
[6/1, 23:26] Dr Surendra A Soni:
Garbhadhan se hi ojas ki sthiti mani gai hai....
(Reference yad nahi) Jabki insulin tab hota hi nahi....
8 ve mas me yah asthir hota hai tab insulin secretion activate nahi hota...
[6/1, 23:26] Ranvir Rajpurohit Dr:
चरक सूत्र 30 हे शायद सर !
चरक सूत्र 30 हे शायद सर !
[6/1, 23:28] Kapil kapoor:
ओजसा वर्तयन्ति प्रीणिताः सर्वदेहिनः१ ।
यदृते सर्वभूतानां जीवितं नावतिष्ठते ॥९॥
यत् सारमादौ गर्भस्य २यत्तद्गर्भरसाद्रसः ।
संवर्त३मानं हृदयं समाविशति यत् पुरा४ ॥१०॥
यस्य५ नाशात्तु नाशोऽस्ति धारि यद्धृदयाश्रितम्६ ।
यच्छरीररसस्नेहः प्राणा यत्र प्रतिष्ठिताः ॥११॥
[6/1, 23:28] Arvind Aggarwal Dr. Physiology:
Yes 8th month me oja asthira wali baat chid gayi fir to...
[6/1, 23:29] Katoch sir:
It is all hypothetical, unfortunately we could not make it objective and evident.
[6/1, 23:29] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:
Sir as per ayurveda pratyaksham hi alpam analpam apratyaksham. Means there are many entities which can be understand but cannot perceived through indriyan like bhuta.
One shaastra is not complete but in total it is complete.
[6/1, 23:29] Dr Surendra A Soni:
Thanks dr kapil !
Thanks dr kapil !
[6/1, 23:30] Dr Surendra A Soni:
Please reply your view on comparison of ojas and insulin...??
You initiated this.
[6/1, 23:30] Katoch sir:
Dr. Anupama !
I don't know which Ayurveda books you have studied.
[6/1, 23:32] Nandkishor Dadhich Dr:
Insulin is like kayagni and glucagon is similar to rasagni. these harmones influencethe jatheagnipaka and vipak of madhur ahar rasa and it's assimiation to dhatus dosha and mala.
[6/1, 23:32] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:
Sir aap yahaan kisko oja le rahe hein jo nast ho jaayega ?
[6/1, 23:34] Dr B K Mishra Ji:
Not hypothetical sir
पित्त और कफ के आवरण को समाप्त करने वाली औषध योजना करने से मधुमेह नियंत्रित हो जाता है।
मेरा निजी अनुभव है।
[6/1, 23:35] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:
Sir, I cannot know where I am wrong ?
[6/1, 23:35] Katoch sir: Great !
[6/1, 23:35] Dr B K Mishra Ji: Bio Essence !
[6/1, 23:38] Katoch sir:
"Gyatamalpam Agyatamanalpam " is the exact reference from Vimansthan of Charak Samhita.
[6/1, 23:44] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:
Thank u sir, I will go through it later that in which context it has been told ?
[6/2, 06:32] Bhargava Thakkar MD (Patan):
Agar insuline ko oja mane to kya oja ko kisi prani ke sharir me nirman kar bahar nikal pyenge aur nikalne par vah prani jivit rahega ? Ya chemicaly usko lab me bana payenge ? Muje nahi lagata oja insuline hai.
[6/2, 06:47] Katoch sir:
What are the possible biochemical elements, you think, could be included under Oja other than insulin. If those are not identified or characterized then no point to make such a hypothesis that Oja is insulin plus others.
Ayurveda also says to study Jyotish etc . It means something was lacking in Ayurveda and the recommendation of our Acharyas was to bridge the knowledge gap by studying other Shastras.
[6/2, 06:53] Chulet Sir Nia:
एकम् शास्त्रम् अधीयानो न विद्युत् शास्त्र निश्चयम् । तस्माद् बहुश्रुत .....सुश्रुत
[6/2, 06:55] Katoch sir:
There are more benefits and clarity than harm and confusion/ innocence for application of Ayurveda if the practitioner has knowledge of contemporary subject matters.
[6/2, 08:08] Chulet Sir Nia:
सभी सुश्रुत क़ालीन आचार्य त्रिगुण , पंचमहाभूत अतएव त्रिदोष सिद्धान्त को ही मानते थे,हैं, स्वाभाविक भी है ।वहाँ तन्त्रान्तर का तात्पर्य भी भारतीय तन्त्रान्तर /आयुर्वेदीय तन्त्रान्तर ही होता था / है , अब आधुनिक चिकित्सा विज्ञान के सोच के साथ नहीं , अपितु उसके परीक्षित एवम् स्थापित तत्वों / तथ्यों के साथ तुलनात्मक विचार करते है , समझना चाहते है । इस स्थिति में एक प्लस एक दो होते है , ऐसी निश्चयात्मक तुलना , सर्वदा , सभी विषयों में संभव नहीं होती , अधिकतम नज़दीक की जानकारी मिल पायेगी । ऐसा ही सोचकर मैनें कहा था , बहुश्रुत तो अनन्त है आप अपने तथ्यों की पुष्टि के लिये कितने भी तन्त्रान्तरों की मदद ले सकते है !
[6/2, 08:14] Dr B K Mishra Ji:
सादर।
साधुवाद सर
[6/2, 08:37] Katoch sir:
विरोध का तो सवाल ही नहीं उठता, हम बात तो दो चिकित्साशास्त्रों के तत्वों के समन्वय और सामञ्जस्य की कर रहे हैं ।
[6/2, 09:04] Chulet Sir Nia:
स्पष्ट कहना आवश्यक है अत: क्षमा याचना पूर्वक निवेदन है कि :-
ओज एक अनधिव्यक्तो , व्यक्तकर्मा च , एसा द्रव्य है । यह किसी अन्य की दुष्टि नहीं करता / कर सकता कारक रूप में , अत: दोष नहीं है ।
यह शरीर को समवाय संबंध से धारण करता है अत: धातु है , किन्तु दोष से दुष्ट नहीं होता अत: दूष्य नहीं है ।
इसका विस्रंश होता है वह विमार्गगमन तुल्य अवस्था है, जिसका कारक कोई अन्य होता है , यथासंभवत: वात, इस के गुणों में नकारात्मक परिवर्तन इसकी व्यापत् कहलाती है , जो निश्चित ही क्षय या वृद्धि से भिन्न है जिसे आचार्य दुष्टि भी नहीं कहना चाहते व्यापत् ही कहना चाहते है ,इसके क्षय का प्राणों से ,न केवल समवाय संबंध है ,अपितु गर्भोत्पत्ति से मृत्युकाल से कुछ क्षण पूर्व तक , सकारात्मक सह संबंध है जिसे सभी आचार्यों ने स्वीकार किया है । इससे संबंधित प्रत्येक शास्त्रीय वक्तव्य /सूत्र निश्चयात्मक है / परीक्षकै: बहुविध परीक्षोपरान्त स्थापित वस्तु निर्णय है / यत् नाशे नियतम् नाशो यस्मिन् तिष्ठति - तिष्ठति - इन वाक्यों से यह निश्चय अभिव्यक्त किया गया है ।यह विचित्र द्रव्य है क्योंकि शरीर में ऐसे अनेक तत्व अनेक लोग तुरन्त गिना सकते है , जिनके नाश से व्यक्ति का /शरीर का ? नाश एवम् जिनके रहने से व्यक्ति का / शरीर का बने रहना निश्चित है अत: इसे इन्सुलिन या इंसुलिन जैसा अन्य एक तत्व मानना किसी भी प्रकार से उचित नहीं कहा जा सकता ।
यह गर्भ का आदि सार है , गर्भ का भी सार , वो भी गर्भ की आदि अवस्था में , हृदय निर्मित होते ही यह सर्व प्रथम वहाँ स्वयम् प्रविष्ट हो जाता है , आमरण वहीं रहता है , सर्वधातुसारात्मक होते हुये यह अर्धान्जलि परिमाण में मापित है , दशगुणात्मक होता है किन्तु बिन्दु परिमाण में अष्टबिन्द्वात्मक ही रहता है क्योंकि गुणरूप में औज के दश गुण प्रथक् पृथक् अस्तित्व रखते हुये भी बिन्दु रूप में , श्लक्ष्ण =स्निग्ध = पिच्छिल इन तीनों रूपों का पृथक् अस्तित्व बने रहना संभव नहीं होता अत: तीनों तीनों के एकरूप स्निग्ध होने गुण संख्या १० होकर भी पर औजपरिमाण अष्ट बिन्दु ही रहता है ।
अत: शरीर में स्थित द्रव्यों में से जो भी औज के दशगुणों को एक या अनेक संख्या में धारण करता है वही या वे वे सब द्रव्य , ही मिलित सारभूत रूप में औज कहलाते है ,अत: औज इंसुलिन है या नहीं इसे खंडित या मंडित करना - ठीक वैसा ही निर्णय देना है जैसे उपनिषद् काल में अनेक .... व्यक्तियों द्वारा हाथी के विभिन्न अंगों को छूते हुये , हाथी कैसा होता है , इसका निर्णय किये जाने का उदाहरण वर्णित है ।
अस्तु पांचभोतिक आधार जो जो भी द्रव्य औज के गुणों से निर्मित है , उन्हें धारण करते है , जो गर्भ के आदि से ही शरीर में रहते हों , हृदय बनते ही जो जो हृदय में जाकर विराजित हो जाते हों , जो आमरण रहते हों और प्राण रक्षा के लिये जिनका होना सर्वदा सर्वथा आवश्यक हो वही
औज है ।
ग्रुप के जो सुधीजन निज तन्त्रान्तर ज्ञान के बल पर औजका तुलनात्मक निश्चयात्मक नामकरण , तुलना रूप में करना चाहते है , यदि वे किसी निश्चय पर पंहुच जांये तो हम भी जानना चाहेंगे वो समानान्तर नाम - जिसे आयुर्वेद में औज कहते है ।
किन्तु सावधान !!! इससे किसी की भी एकीय मत व्यक्त करने की प्रशंसा नहीं होगी , मेरे विचार से ऐसा होना चाहिये - इस वाक्य को कहने की अभी तक - मेरी तो बौद्धिक स्थिति मैं नहीं मानता , जो अपनी स्थिति मानते हों , वो कहें ।
जय जय श्री राधे !
[6/2, 09:11] pawan madan Dr:
सादर प्रणाम !
Thats what I am saying from the begining.
Anyrhing which can work in the body and perform the functions of Oja as described in texts can be Called as oja.
It could vary from...
glucose to ATP
proteins to fats
compliments to prostaglandins
or any other thing...
The physical apearance has been desbed in texta based on the naked seen / anumaanita concept by the then scholars or Rishis.
It is interesting to note that this discrepancy in the description of physical appearance and properties will be found for almost all entities ...let it be Rasa or Srotas or Snaayus or other things.
Thank U very much sir.
उत्साह बढाने के लिये धन्यवाद.
[6/2, 09:11] Chulet Sir Nia:
यदि वस्तुत: ओज को आधुनिक विज्ञान के मत से जानना चाहते है तो केवल परिशेष न्याय से ही जान सकते है -- और परीक्षा विधि केवल और केवल एक है --- नेति नेति । यथा -
किं इंसुलिनम् ओज: नेति नेति - न इति न इति ।
इंसुलिनस्य अग्न्याशयनामकस्थाने उत्पादनात् , ओजस्य च सर्वधातुसारभूतत्वात् - यदाह - रसादीनाम् --इति ,
ह
[6/2, 09:13] pawan madan Dr:
जो भी ओज के दश गुणो मे से एक या अनेक या सब को धारण या परिलक्षित करता है....
Wonderful and practical statement..
I have the same understanding and described yesterday.
[6/2, 09:15] Dr Surendra A Soni:
उत्कृष्ट विवेचन गुरुजी ।
आभार ।।
[6/2, 09:20] Chulet Sir Nia:
दृष्टियुक्त व्यक्ति हाथी की सूँड़ का स्पर्शात्मक प्रत्यक्ष करके भी कहे कि -आकार में खम्भे जैसा तथा स्पर्श में खुरदरा -रूक्ष व परुष होता है , - तो उसके प्रत्यक्ष ज्ञान को स्वीकार किया जा सकता है किन्तु उसके ज्ञान से प्राप्त हाथी के स्वरूप के ज्ञान को स्वीकार नहीं किया जा सकता क्योंकि चक्षुवान होते हुये भी परीक्षक संकुचित/सीमित क्षेत्र में देख रहा है !
[6/2, 09:22] Rabindra N Acharya Jngr:
[6/2, 09:22] Chulet Sir Nia: चरैवेति चरैवेति !
[6/2, 09:24] Rabindra N Acharya Jngr:
All are requested to put comments on above article about ojas.
[6/2, 09:25] Dr Surendra A Soni:
ORIGINAL ARTICLE
Year : 2015 | Volume : 8 | Issue : 2 | Page : 109-114
Concept of oja vis -a -vis endoplasmic reticular function: An approach to decode the holistic view
Anagha Vishwas Ranade, Rabinarayan Acharya
Department of Dravyaguna, IPGT and RA, Gujarat Ayurved University, Jamnagar, Gujarat, India
Date of Web Publication 17-Jan-2016
Correspondence Address:
Anagha Vishwas Ranade
Department of Dravyaguna, IPGT and RA, Gujarat Ayurved University, Jamnagar, Gujarat
India
Abstract
Background: In Ayurveda, Oja, being one of the most distinctive concepts is a factor of prime importance related to vitality. Ayurveda depicts the definition, types (Para, Apara); site (Hridaya- Heart, sarvashariravyapi - presence in cellular level), quantity (vindu-in drops), function (bala-vitality) and its derangement etiology etc. of Oja. Various researchers based on their own ideas have given its modern parlance with immunity and stem cell etc.
Objective: To decipher the fundamental concept of Oja vis-ΰ-vis endoplasmic reticular function.
Material and Methods: A critical analysis of information on Oja from available Ayurvedic literatureand endoplasmic reticular function form modern Physiology texts.
Result: 'Endoplasmic reticulum(ER)' is a multifunctional membranous organelle forming a network in the whole body and is responsible for lipid biosynthesis, calcium storage and protein folding and processing. Etiological factors of Ojadushti (dysfunction) are (Abhighata-may be environmental stress), (shoka-mental stress), (shrama-physical stress, etc) which share similarity with stressors that disrupt function of ER ultimately leading to ER stress causing lifestyle disorders. Achieving cellular homeostasis is now being emphasized in the management of various diseases, in conventional medicine. The cellular homeostasis is dependent largely onproper folding of proteins where as in proper folding results into accumulation of misfolded proteins ultimately enhancing cellular death. Scientific reports on vayathapanaherbs like Amalaki, Punarnava, Guduchi etc. to alleviate ER stress can be give an evidence to correlate the ER with Oja.
Conclusion: The present hypothesis gives an insight to decipher a novel concept of Oja and its relation with Endoplasmic reticulum.
Keywords: Endoplasmic reticulum, Oja, vayasthapana
In Ayurveda, Oja, being one of the most distinctive concepts is a factor of prime importance related to vitality. Oja is regarded to be the purest part of the seven dhatus and is referred to as Bala by Acharya Sushruta[1] the innate quality that produces resistance against many diseases. Besides this, Acharyas have stated in detail about the types, peculiar characteristics, functions, and the etiology behind its dysfunction that leads in total disruption of the normal homeostasis of the body which is sometimes fatal. This concept persuades to think in deep about the role of Oja to the cellular level.
In the recent past, various researchers based on their own ideas, have given its modern parlance with immunity and stem cell, etc. The views differ in explanation of Oja namely it is quoted to be a factor related to immunity in the physiology text of Dr. Ranjitraya Desai; [2] whereas referred as a part of vitamins, albumin, glycogen, internal secretions of testicles, ovary, prostatic secretions by Dr. Ghanekar. [3] These aspects focus on only certain physiological aspects of Oja. However, still, the location wise variation and types of Oja, the role of Bala, etc., are untouched. A thorough deciphering of each and every aspect of Oja, as reported in the classical texts, is necessary.
In spite of thorough research on the etiology aspects of a disease, scientists still ponder over the concept of vitality. Past scientific researchers have highlighted the role of different cellular organs in controlling bodily functions. Role of endoplasmic reticulum (ER), Golgi apparatus etc., have been reported and recently, more emphasis is being laid on their participation in maintaining cellular homeostasis which is in close line with normal Oja function. On a deep thought, an organelle named "ER" is present in every cell and regulates cellular homeostasis. Oja is debated not to be a dhatu as it does not possess nutritional property (poshaka guna).[4] The ER too participates only in the maintenance of homeostasis. In the present article, an attempt to correlate its typical location and types and functions with Oja has been done by making a thorough review on Oja about its constitution, functions, etc., from various classical texts and recent texts related to Ayurveda.
A critical analysis of ER functions has been carried out from various e-journal articles and scientific papers followed by the study of probable correlation of Oja vis-a-vis ER as regards to its types, prime location, physiological functions, and pathological functions, etc.
Oja
Oja has been attributed with two synonyms that is, Bala (overall strength), Prakrit Shleshma, in the classical texts of Ayurveda. [5] Based on the prime site of function, Oja has been divided into two types, namely, Para Oja and Apara Oja. Para Oja is present in heart and its function is mainly associated with the heart. Apara Oja is present in Ojovahi dhamanya[6] and functions all over the body. The presence of Oja during the formation of zygote after fertilization and also during the formation of heart and in organogenesis has also been highlighted by Chakrapani, a celebrated commentator of Charak Samhita[7] [Table 1]. Etiology of Ojo dushti is mentioned by Sushruta Samhita[8] with the effects resulting in three stages of pathogenesis namely Visramsa, Vyapanna, Kshaya; last being fatal.
Endoplasmic reticulum
The ER is a vital organelle present in all eukaryotic cells. It consists of interconnected, branching membranous tubules, vesicles, and cisternae that provide a distinct subcellular compartment with a number of functions. The rough ER is studded with ribosomes on its outer surface and plays a key role in protein synthesis and secretion. Smooth ER is central to the synthesis of fatty acids and phospholipids, assembly of lipid bilayers, metabolism of carbohydrates, and regulation of calcium homeostasis [9] [Table 1]. One of the significant functions of ER is protein folding and processing.
Para Oja is located in the heart. In case of ER, a specialized type of sarcoplasmic reticulum (SR) is present predominantly in the heart having the function of calcium metabolism regulation in cardiac myocytes. [10] Even, in relation to the presence of Oja in cardiogenesis. [11] It is postulated that the shuttle of free Ca2 + in and out of the ER is essential for a proper generation of pacemaker activity during early cardiogenesis and fetal life. [12] The ER also has been to possess a role in the formation of zygote from oocyte, the necessary RNA molecules are directed by ER through a novel protein Vera (VgLE binding and ER association). Thus, ER has a role in organogenesis. [13]
For Apara Oja, Ojovahi dhamanya can be possibly correlated with the cisterns and membranes (MAMs) of ER as it refers the network and channels present in all eukaryotic cells through which the ER functions.
Physiological functions
Kritsna dhatu Sneha
Oja has been quoted as Kritsna dhatu Sneha.[14] On closely reading between the lines, we can correlate this with the lipid biogenesis function of ER. [15] Unctuous component of all dhatus can thus be probably the de novo (new) lipid component synthesis and inter MAM transport which is a prime function of ER. Lipids, especially phospholipid bilayer is important for MAM integrity and also aids in absorption of certain components. Here, we see that, "Prakrit Shleshma0" synonym also suits for functional action of ER as the Shleshma deals with maintaining stability at cellular level.
Pranayatanam-Agnishomiya
Sushruta[16] has termed Oja to be Pranayatana[17] and the purest form derived from Shukra dhatu which is further referred as Teja and then Bala, the innate immunity. Dalhana (commentator of Sushruta Samhita) [18] is of the opinion that Pranayatana is an entity which possess Agni as well as Soma.[19] In case of varied functions of ER, we see it depicts both stability and synthetic functions. A scientific reference suggests that the mitochondria-associated ER MAM is a specialized sub-domain of the ER MAM that regulates ER-mitochondria communications. The importance of inter-organelle communication in the innate immune response to virus infection and in the pathophysiology of neurodegenerative/
Bala
Sthiraupachitmamsata (well-developed muscle tissue and mass as well as the upachita sharira) is one of the functions of Bala as per Sushruta.[21] ER; both smooth and rough are important in case of protein synthesis, carbohydrate and lipid metabolism, exchange of ions, and detoxification. These processes are needed to maintain the overall equilibrium. Among the smooth ER, a modified part of it named SR present in skeletal muscle has a role in coupling of excitation and contraction, [22] which helps in proper muscle contraction. The SR of heart differs structurally from skeletal muscle.
Sarva Cheshtasu Apratighatatva[21] (clearing hindrances for normal function of physiological processes) can be correlated with the proper protein translocation, folding, and quality control function of ER [23] thereby ensuring normal cellular function.
Dysfunction
Causal similarity
Oja dushti : Ojo dushti is quoted in Sushruta Samhita[24] to be caused due to Abhighat (infliction of injury), Kshaya, Kopa, Shoka, etc.
Endoplasmic reticulum stress
The inavailability of oxygen (hypoxia) or glucose (hypoglycemia), radiation, acidosis, calcium levels, the redox milieu, energy levels (modulated by hypoxia and hypoglycemia), and other factors can impact and disturb proper functioning of the ER, resulting in ER stress, and impacting protein folding in the lumen of the ER. [25]
On close look at the ER stress etiology, we can possibly correlate Abhighata with irradiation, Kshaya with Hypoxia, Kopa with oxidation, acidosis.
Manifestation of disease process
Effect of Ojo dushti (Oja dysfunction)
The effect of Ojo dushti has been described by Sushruta in three stages [26] among which last is fatal. In the first stage (i.e., Visramsa), he has stated symptoms such as Sandhivishlesha, Gatrasadana, Dosha chyavana, kriyasannirodha, etc., In the second stage (Vyapanna), symptoms such as immobility in the body, Vatashopha (acute inflammation), discolouration of skin, lassitude, tandra, nidra while in the third stage (i.e., Kshaya) symptoms such as fainting, muscle wasting, stupefaction, delirium, and death.
Stages of ER stress response
Under ER stress conditions, unfolded proteins accumulate in the ER, and this eventually induces the perturbation of cellular activities. The fate of the cell is either survival or apoptosis in ER stress conditions. This results in accumulation of misfolded proteins in the cell triggering the self-protective mechanism in the cell itself named unfolded protein response (UPR). [27] This response of eukaryotic cells consists of three different mechanisms [Figure 1].
In mammals, the UPR signaling pathway is initiated by three ER MAM-associated sensors: (1) Activating transcription factor-6, (2) inositol-requiring transmembrane kinase/endoribonuclease, and (3) double-stranded RNA-dependent protein kinase - like eukaryotic initiation factor 2 alpha (PERK).
First, under ER stress initial signaling contributes to adaptive changes as shown in the figure out of which some are moved on to the recovery stage. Some are adapted to stress but result into disorders and the third and last apoptosis of cells.
Figure 1: The image states the correlation of three stages of endoplasmic reticulum stress with the three types of Oja dysfunction
If we closely compare the three stages of Oja dushti, the severity increase and last in Kshaya, symptoms such as Maranam, Moha, Mamsakshaya, etc., represent the disorders resulting due to apoptosis [Figure 1]. These symptoms are in correlation with neurodegeneration and chronic disorders and last stages of cancer. This resultant UPR resulting in wrong signaling to cellular level can be correlated with the following verse: [28]
'Teja samiritam tasmata visramsayati dehina' which means the vitiated teja component along with Vata due to the causative factors like Abhighat etc., produce Visramsa resulting in Kriyasannirodha. We can interpret that wrong signaling is the possible abnormal Vata function resulting in mitochondrial and ER dysfunctions and UPR. These being sites of synthesis (mainly proteins) can be considered as Teja predominant. Thus, the levels of ER stress correspond to three stages of Ojo dushti which worsen further leading to death.
Diseases due to Oja dysfunction
Diabetes
Oja Kshaya that is, (Apara Oja) in Prameha has been reported by Acharya Charak.[29] Being Apara Oja Kshaya, it renders the disease to be nonfatal. In contemporary medicine, we get evidences where diabetes is caused due to ER stress. This is the major area where research is being focused. Accumulating evidence suggests that ER stress plays a role in the pathogenesis of diabetes, contributing to pancreatic β-cell death, and insulin resistance. [30]
Viability issue of fetus in 8 th month
During the 8 months of pregnancy, Ayurveda states that the fetus in case, if delivered, is not viable as the Oja is not stable. [31] In the modern medicine, the viability issue is said to be due to respiratory distress because of fetal lung immaturity. [32] The production of surfactant starts around 28-30 weeks (in ER), when lung is immature and hence, birth of infants in this period leads to infant respiratory distress syndrome.
Again evidences show that the ER has a central role in the production of surfactant proteins which are responsible for maintaining surface tension in lung and preventing lung collapse. Any sort of mutation in the ER function leads to ER stress leading to UPR thereby hampering surfactant mechanism and fetal distress is set in due to immaturity of fetal lung. [33] In Ayurveda, antenatal care [34] includes Ojaskar dravyas such as ghee, milk, butter which may have a role to facilitate ER function and prevent ER stress because all these possess natural lipid and steroidal source which are major in formation of the thin film during maintenance of surface tension. Besides this, glucocorticoids are often started in 7 th month if fetal lung immaturity is observed.
Cancer
In case of cancer, many physicians of Ayurveda consider Oja Kshaya and hence, switch the treatment to enhance Oja by prescribing Rasayana drugs. Herein, we find the role of chronic ER stress in inducing carcinogenesis. The reports on usage of medicinal plants suggest that these plants develop ER stress in cancerous cells but not in normal cells. Thus, their action seems to be target-specific. We can say that in treating cancer, Oja Kshaya is caused in cancer cells by creating ER stress in them thereby protecting the Oja function of normal cells.
A good illustration is of curcumin induced apoptosis in cancer cells. [35]
Cardiovascular diseases
In case of SR stress, it disrupts the calcium function thereby leading to abnormal contraction and signaling in myocytes which is the root cause of cardiac dysfunction. [36] Pressure overload is thought to activate ER stress-mediated apoptosis in the mouse myocardium and ER stress was shown to contribute to ischemia-induced apoptosis in cultured cardiac myocytes. In cardiac myocytes, the ER MAM network is potentially more expansive than many other cell types, due to the role played by the SR in contractile calcium handling. The potential overlap in function between the SR and the ER in terms of protein synthesis and folding, as well as ER stress and mTOR signal transduction, suggests that the SR and ER MAM system is a macro-organelle that plays critical roles in cardiac myocyte contraction, growth, and metabolism, all of which are dominant contributors to myocardial function. [37] Thus, in Oja Kshaya, we can say that the Bala Kshaya and Maranam correspond to the cellular apoptosis and this can be fatal in case of heart.
Other diseases
ER stress roles are also reported in production of many neurodegenerative disorders such as Alzheimers, Parkinson's disease, etc.; also in atherosclerosis, hypertension, obesity, and many more chronic disorders.
Some evidences of role of medicinal plants in alleviation of endoplasmic reticulum stress
Punarnava: (Boerhaavia diffusa Linn.) Reduces excessive calcium influx which caused due to ER stress. In Ayurveda, it is often used to manage edema in CVDs. [38]
Shalaparni: (Desmodium gangeticum L. DC) significantly brought the activities of the mitochondrial respiratory enzymes and some sarcoplasmic enzymes to a near normal level and thereby reduces calcium overload.
Guduchi: (Tinospora cordifolia L.).
Berberine exerts anti-apoptotic effect and improves cardiac functional recovery following myocardial I/R via activating AMPK thereby alleviating ER stress. [40]
Yashtimadhu: (Glycyrrhiza glabra L.).
Glycyrrhizin was found to have anti-apoptotic effects on induced acute liver injury in rats through the inhibition of JNK1/2 and p38 MAPK phosphorylation and inactivation of the CHOP protein, thereby reducing ER stress. [41]
Triphala: A study on triphala has also been reported in alleviation of ER stress. [42]
On keen observation, most of them belong to the Vayasthapana category. All these are rasayana drugs.
Oja and ER possess functional similarity. ER stress can be used as a pathological marker for Ojo dushti. The Vayasthapana[43] drugs are thus concerned with the correction of early aging of cells due to environmental stressors and can be used as Ojaskar dravyas in the management of Oja dysfunction.
For further scope, the various Rasayana drugs, Jivaniya, and Vayasthapana category drugs can be screened to assess their function in the alleviation of ER stress thereby proving the Ojaskara activity. The enzymes used to assess endoplasmic reticular stress can be used for further assessing Ojo dysfunction.
[6/2, 09:28] Dr Surendra A Soni:
Acharya Sir !! I have Copied and posted the article for that you shared the link.
Thanks for timely sharing of relevant article.
[6/2, 09:29] Dr B K Mishra Ji:
बहुत सुन्दर उत्कृष्ट मौलिक विश्लेषणात्मक विवेचन।
साधुवाद ।
[6/2, 09:30] Chulet Sir Nia:
By examining it through parishes nyay / tantryukti
With textual references . Means why this is not oaj should be explained. Kindly avoid personal opinion about the subject or topic .
[6/2, 09:33] Dr B K Mishra Ji:
विनम्र निवेदन है कि आयुर्वेदीय मूल भावो को अन्य के साथ पूर्णतः Compare नहीं किया जा सकता है।अतः उनको आयुर्वेद के दृष्टिकोण से ही समझना तथा ग्रहण करना चाहिये।
[6/2, 09:58] pawan madan Dr:
Yes
No comparisn but incorporation......
[6/2, 10:03] pawan madan Dr:
*We must start thinking interms of gunas and karmas instead of in terms of dravys*.
.....there can be different types of dravysa exhibiting/manifesting/
*We should start accepting this as early as posaible*
[6/2, 10:06] Dr B K Mishra Ji:
A superb core illustrative article concerning ayurvedik Oaj.
[6/2, 10:08] Katoch sir:
Not at all clear to me this proposition.
[6/2, 10:29] pawan madan Dr:
Sir I tried to say...
As Ramakant sir explained.
Any dravya producing/ exhibiting/manifesting one or many or all Gunas/karma of Oja can be called Oja.
This is
*considering an entity based on physiological functions.*
E.g.
siraa......is that which performs the funcrion of saranam.....that could be many entities like vein or artery or lymphatic vessel or something else.
E.g.
Dosha......विक्रिता अविक्रिता देहम घनन्ति ते वर्त्यन्ति च..
Anything which does dhaaran of the body and has the capacity to destroy the body also.......is Dosha.......in this sense......sometimes dhaatus can also be doshas and malas can also be Doshas...
I hope I am able to clear my viewpoint with this reply.
Correct me wherever I am wrong...
6/2/17, 10:38 - Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:Outstanding indeed
6/2/17, 10:49 - pawan madan Dr:
कफ वर्गे भवेत शुक्रम पित्तवर्गे च शोणितम = हरिवन्श वर्व १, अस्थान ४०, श्लोक ४२
This reference gives an indication that OJA can be a group of similarily acting entities having some similar properties.
Why ojus can be a group of substances?
-as all tail, ghrita, meda, majjaa, vasaa and mastishka sneha are called by SNEHA- CHARAK SUTRA 1/86 AND SUSHRUTA sharira 4/13
तन्त्रान्तरे तु ओजःशब्देन रसोऽप्युच्यते, जीवशोणित मप्योजः शब्देनामनन्ति केचित्, ऊष्माणमप्योजःशब्देनापरे वदन्ति||१९||- DALAHANA ON sushruta sutra 15/19
DALAHANA – RASA is also called OJA, RAKTA is also called OJA, USHMAA is also called OJA --- in some other texts
CHAKRAPAANI on this says – oja is present in all the body but especially heart is its place, because oja moves from the heart to all the body parts through the vessels connected to heart so as to reach each and every avayava of body.
6/2/17, 10:52 - Dr B K Mishra Ji: Great !
6/2/17, 10:53 - pawan madan Dr:
...a particular chemical / material / medium / substance can behave like Oja at different times at different places. This is something like e.g take adrenaline/nor adrenaline- they behave differently at different places at different times.....
6/2/17, 10:56 - Katoch sir:
समष्टिभाव व्यष्टि घटकों के समकक्ष कैसे हो सकता है- वस्तुतः ओज सर्वधातुओं के सारभाग का समष्टि भाव है। ओज के परिपेक्ष्य गुणों को समष्टि रूप में एक ही भाव में समझना चाहिए नाकि पृथक पृथक भावों में ।
6/2/17, 11:01 - Chulet Sir Nia:
बहुत अच्छा ।
धातुनिर्माण में इसे इंगित किया गया है ।
निर्णयात्मक वक्तव्य से पूर्व - किस ओज की बात कर रहे है - कहना आवश्यक है , सभी सुधी जन इसका ध्यान रखें !
6/2/17, 11:04 - Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik:
Study other shastra.. and if we go through shastra lakshan Frm chark allopathic is not shastra. Now what should be called is not my topic here, and I don't want to go in it, cause some followers of western science may be hurted. But just want to say that shastra se allopathic nhi me sakte. (Aur har bar Lena b Nhi chahiye) jyotish, darshan, adhyatm Baki Aur shastra bhi hai.
6/2/17, 11:06 - Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:
सबको बहूत बहूत आभार व्यक्त करना चाहती हूँ। मेरे दृष्टिकोण से भी पंखानुपुनख विवेचन किये । सबकुछ पढ़ने के बाद मुझे लगता है यद्यपि हमारे entities को मॉडर्न ज्ञान के माध्यम से पूर्णतः समझना संभव है पर सिर्फ हम नहीं कर सकते। यह उनके विद्वानों (anatomist, physiologist, biochemist ,physicians) आदि के सहायता से संभव है। तबतक हमें हमारे ज्ञान में रहना सही रहेगा।
ओज कोई एक ही substance है चाहे इन्सुलिन हो, चाहे T lymphocytes हो, चाहे एड्रेनैलिन नोरड्रेनालिन जैसे neurotransmitter हो, जिसका गुण धर्म संपूर्ण रूप से ओज के वर्णन के साथ मिलेंगे उसको ही ओज कह सकते हैं।
6/2/17, 11:07 - Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik: No
6/2/17, 11:10 - Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik:
And not needed indeed sir. firstly lets understand our own principles in pure form. Then will all spend time in comparison . Or else it will be wasting of time nd energy of all, I think....
6/2/17, 11:12 - Dr Surendra A Soni:
Still not leaving insulin....
Who can/should force you...?? And why...??
Each and every person has right to pursue his/her opinion.
Thanks Anupama ji !!
6/2/17, 11:25 - Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:
सर में आपके दृष्टिकोण से भी सोच रही हूँ, गर्भावस्था में ओज का वर्णन सायद चरक शारीर स्थान में है। पर अब में किताब से दूर हूँ। बाद में जाकर देखूंगी। आप जानते हैं जबतक में पूर्णतः कॉन्विन्से न हो जाऊं तबतक कोई भी विसय को छोड़ती नहीं हूँ ।
Sir about my explanation for madhumeha I.e. expelout if vasa or madhu or ghee like substance directly through urine ?
6/2/17, 11:35 - Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik:
I can't say much madm.
1) Nhi Mene vasa, madhu Aur ghee original dekha hai. (Jo shastr karo ko apekshit hai, jo bhi hame bola gya hai me usi ko ghee, vasa, etc kehta hu)
2) only theary is not possible to say anything, its like 1 wing bird acc to sushrut.
So jab tak soch ya theary ka practical n dekha ho hawe me gappe nhi marna chahiye, ..
Nd "Muze Lgta hai, I think" jaise sentences ko me koi weightage nhi deta hu unless and unroll behind that shatra ki theary nd practical na ho, so I don't use such words..
3) I have not seen pt of vasa meh, etc.. Mene to dm wale dekhe hai bus..
Jisne dekhe ho Vo details bta sakta hai.
Sory, but Don't take it personally.
6/2/17, 11:46 - Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:
आप ठीक कह रहे हैं सर।हम आयुर्वेद को पूर्णतः समझ पाते तथा दूसरों को समझा पाते तो कोई बात नहीं थी। पर अब न हमें पूर्ण आयुर्वेद समझाने वाले वो गुरु हैं न हमारी बुद्धि उतनी उत्कृष्ट है। इसलिए लग रहा हैं कि सायद मॉडर्न के जरिये कुछ हल निकल आये पर ज्ञान बृद्धि तो हो रही है लेकिन निस्कर्ष नहीं निकल रही है।फिरभी उमीद नहीं छोड़नी चाहिये।युगानुरूप प्रयाश चालु रखना चाहिए।
6/2/17, 11:49 - Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:
Thank u sir for ur clear response.
6/2/17, 12:11 - pawan madan Dr:
sir....by this statement....do u mean that Oja is that which should have all the 10 gunas and all the karmas ascribed to Oja in the texts.....? this is the same way.......like dosha for example pitta dosha is that which should necessarily have all gunas ssneham ushnam teekshnam dravam amlam saram katu .....?
6/2/17, 12:23 - Prof. Daya Shankarji Sir:
डाक्टर अनुपमा आप घूमफिर कर उसी बात पर आ जाती हैं, यह दुराग्रह है, चूलेट जी और अन्य विद्वानों ने बहुत स्पष्ट कर दिया है, फिर भी हम जीवन पर्यन्त ओजोवर्धन का प्रयास करते है, इन्सुलिन बढाने का नहीं ।
औज से ही व्याधिक्षमत्व संभव है ना कि इन्सुलिन से !
6/2/17, 12:45 - Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:
क्षमा करें सर मेरे समझ से हर चीज़ का अलग महत्व है। रस,रक्त आदि धातु के अलग गुण धर्म तथा प्रमाण है। ओज सर्व धातुओं का सार अवस्य है पर उनसे अलग है,जिसका गुणधर्म उनसे भिन्न है। उसका अस्तित्व अलग ही होनी चाहिये। इस बात पे में टिकी हुई हूँ और रहूंगी भी । में सिर्फ इन्सुलिन पे अभी टिकी नहीं हूं।
हमें अवस्य ओज वर्धक ही प्रयाश करना है। ओज वर्धक आहार का इन्सुलिन के ऊपर क्या असर है ये तो मॉडर्न वाले ही स्टडी करके बता सकते हैं।
6/2/17, 12:49 - Prof. Daya Shankarji Sir:
आप माडर्न अवश्य पढें पर आयुर्वेद पर उसका चश्मा लगाने का प्रयास ना करें !
आयुर्वेद के त्रिदोष, सप्त धातु, ओज आत्मा, प्राण आदि को माडर्न से नहीं समझा जा सकता !
6/2/17,13:22- Katoch sir:
Then how will you interpret/understand/examine medical papers brought by patients to the Ayurveda practitioners ?
ओज और इन्सुलिन पूर्णतः भिन्न पदार्थ हैं। ओजोवृद्धौ हि देहस्य तुष्टि पुष्टि बलोदयः।
जबकि
इन्सुलिन वृद्धि से बची खुची तुष्टि पुष्टि बल ओज तथा प्राणों का क्षय होकर पंचत्व प्राप्ति की पूर्ण सम्भावना।
6/2/17, 13:48 - Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:
सर exogenous इन्सुलिन को सोच रहे हैं । endogenous इन्सुलिन उससे अलग है ।
शारीर के अंदर वो अपना संतुलन राक्षकर्ता है जबतक pancreas कुछ बाद प्रॉब्लम न हो जाये।
6/2/17, 13:52 - Dr B K Mishra Ji:
इन्सुलिन के स्थान पर मैं समान वायु, पाचक पित्त, जठराग्नि, धात्वग्नि तथा भूताग्नियों के बारे में अधिक चिन्तन करता हूँ ।
6/2/17, 13:56 - Prof. Daya Shankarji Sir:
Exogenous और endogenous इन्सुलिन क्या है ?
6/2/17, 14:07 - Katoch sir:
जो pancreas के मरे विना पैदा हो वह endogenous और जो मरने के बाद वो exogenous insulin कहलाती है सम्भवतः ।
6/2/17, 14:21 - Katoch sir:
इन्सुलिन में भी वात पित्त कफ अग्नि आदि रहते हैं । इसे मत नकारो भाई साहब ।
6/2/17, 14:28 - Chulet Sir Nia:
नकारने का प्रश्न ही नहीं है , सर्वम् द्रव्यम् पांचभौतिकम् , न अनौषधिभूतम् जगति किंचिद् द्रव्यम् उपलभ्यते ...
यह एक द्रव्य है जो द्रव्य प्रभाव से या स्व गुण प्रभाव से या द्रव्यगुणप्रभाव से कार्मुक होता है । इसके स्रोतस् का उद्भव स्थल यकृत् क्रोडस्थ अग्न्याशय ज्ञात है किन्तु वहन के स्रोतस् स्वतंत्र नहीं अज्ञात स्रोतस् से
6/2/17, 14:29 - Dr B K Mishra Ji:
मेरा काम उन्हीं वात, पित्त,कफ तथा अग्नि से चल जाता है, इसीलिये मैं इन्सुलिन के बारे में नहीं सोचता।
6/2/17, 14:39 - Vaidehi Mam Parul Univ:
Insulin ka bichemical composition kya hai ?
6/2/17, 14:39 - Priy-ranjan tiwari Dr.:
very true sir each and every thing in our body is made up of tridosh vaat pitta and kapha
insulin is protein.
6/2/17, 14:41 - Chulet Sir Nia:
वहन के स्वतंत्र स्रोतस् रस रक्तादिवत् ज्ञात नहीं है किन्तु सर्वदेहगतकार्य इसके प्रभाव को सूचित करते है ।शरीरस्थ आहार रस में पार्थिव एवम् जलीय महाभूत के आधिक्य वाले मधुर रस के पाचन को अपनी उपस्थिति मात्र से सुनिश्चित करता है तथा यथा स्वम् स्वम् च पुष्णन्ति ..... पार्थिवा: पार्थिवान् एव के क्रम से शरीरस्थ पार्थिव एवम् आप्य भावों का निरन्तर पोषण करता है । इसके आधिक्य के समानान्तर मात्रा में / से शरीर में माधुर्य भाव एवम् तज्जन्य भावों का क्षय हेाता है जिससे सर्व देहगतपार्थिव द्रव्य ,धात्वादि ,का क्षय होकर मृत्यु संभव है एवमेव इसकी न्यूनता से सर्वदेहगत मधुर रस का सम्यक् पाचन न होकर आम मधुर रस अपने अतियोग सदृश लक्षणों को उत्पन्न करता हुआ प्राणभय उत्पन्न करता है तथा /अथवा एवम् प्राण भयोत्पादक उपद्रवों को उत्पन्न करता है ।
6/2/17, 14:41 - priy ranjan tiwari Dr.: very true sir
6/2/17, 16:53 - Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:
Sir exogenous (animal origin or synthetic) means insulin that diabetic patient use to take through injection and endogenous insulin means which is secreted within body. Now maximum patient use insulin in the name of "human insulin" which is synthetic one. recent s studies says natural or animal origin are better than synthetic one. Again chemical composition of our insulin is slightly different than available animal origin. So it is difficult to say the physical properties of our insulin properly.
6/2/17, 18:30 - Shivam Sinwar Ganganagar:
प्रायः पित्तलमम्लमन्यत्र दाडिमामलकात्,
प्रायः श्लेष्मलं मधुरमन्यत्र मधुनः पुराणाच्च शालिषष्टिकयवगोधूमात्, प्रायस्तिकं वातलमवृष्यं चान्यत्र वेताग्रामृतापटोलपत्रात्,
प्रायः कटुकं वातलमवृष्यं चान्यत्र पिप्पलीविश्वभेषजात्
6/2/17, 19:25 - pawan madan Dr: Perfectly said.
6/2/17, 20:23 - Chulet Sir Nia:
चरक कॉल में भी ऐसा होता था-भिषक् मानी निहन्त्येतान् शतान् अनियतायुषान्
6/2/17, 22:00 - Dr Surendra A Soni:
Sure Sir !!
It's for me...?
6/2/17, 22:01 - Katoch sir:
No, for those who have some doubt about the meaning.
6/2/17, 22:02 - Dr Surendra A Soni:
I took it as with in the body because dr anupama mentioned as types of insulin.
6/2/17, 22:04 - Dr. Bharat Delhi:
The above figure illustrates the scale n different levels of complexities which finally leads to organism level biology
This exploration is an unending process, new molecules, pathways, networks are being discovered every year
So Contemplating on any molecules on the basis of its actions (which in most cases are yet to be revealed completely) is not going to add knowledge either basic findanentals or clinical aspects as well
Ayurveda has provided an operational framework threading all levels in mostly vata-pitta-kapha and associated dhatu-mala etc
Moreover panchamahabhuta theory pertaining to deeper level again
Therefore insulin in isolation no way can be correlated to oja
Concept of oja as described in the paper equivalent to ER is also extrapolation only in my view.
6/2/17, 22:15 - Dr Surendra A Soni:
Acharya Sir !!
Congratulations for extra ordinary efforts because the concept is not directly related to your subject.
Few things are not cristal clear as these should be....As per my small understanding...
1. Ojas described in Ayurveda is in liquid form.
Ch. Su. 17/73-75 chakrapani
Ch. Su. 30/8
Ch. Ni. 4/37
Ch. Sha. 7/15 chakra.
Ch. Chi. 15/3-4 chakra.
ET is not a liquid part.
2. Concept of Unstability of Ojas In 8th month of pregnancy also needs clarification. Because immaturity of lungs are found in delivery after completion of 7th months also.
Ch. Sha. 4/24
Your description is correct/perfect as per sites of dash-pranayatan. Ch. Sha. 7/9
Please correct if I am wrong.
6/2/17, 22:22 - Dr. Bharat Delhi:
Correlating insulin with ojas would be supersimplification and wrong.
6/2/17, 22:26 - Dr. Bharat Delhi:
One to one correlation of molecules would simply demean Ayurveda basics which has artistically weaved complex phenomenons for chikitsa and sadvritta as well.
6/2/17, 22:40 - pawan madan Dr:
If one goes in details every reference may indicate towards different dravyas which can behave as per the functions of oja.
6/2/17, 22:48 - Dr Surendra A Soni:
Yes Sir !!
You have described the concept of Ojas with its probable correlation as well as incorporation so nicely.
Unfortunately it was not noticed by many honourable members so feedback could not be obtained.
I gave said different reference in context to Article sent by Respected Acharya Sir !!
6/2/17, 22:50 - pawan madan Dr: Yes Sir !
6/2/17, 23:05 - Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:
It's not about one to one corelation of molecule. Corelation of physical properties are very gross and simple. I never think basics of ayurveda are artistically weaved complex.
Rather simple if we try to conclude considering all available literature regarding a subject As a whole. Usually we take partial knowledge and try to compare. U might have read the comparison of dristi with pupil,considering it's masuradala matra. But can a space be considered as panch bhuta prasaad ? which is also a description of dristi.
Problem arising in finding a proper correlation of hormones or like similar substance are occuring due to direct mixing with blood but our rishis have seen this through their 6th sense. Modern science also gradually approaching towards Ayurveda. So I am sure one day definitely all anatomical and physiological concept of ayurveda can be correlated perfectly with modern terminologies. My logic behind this is physical body of a person in ayurveda and modern perspective is not different, only difference is in angle of looking.
6/3/17, 12:43 - Katoch sir:
Inherent peculiarities of Ayurveda are the concepts of wholistic synergy, not the fragmented whole with mathematical addition of fragments.
Oja and Prana are two such concepts of Ayurveda for which equivalent terms in modern medicine are hard-rather impossible to find.
6/3/17, 13:57 - Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad:
Final conclusion of OJAS.
6/3/17, 15:03 - Kapil kapoor: That's the extract !
6/3/17, 15:26 - Dr. Bharat Delhi:
My intention was to illustrate the point that higher, complex organising principles may seem simple!!
6/3/17, 16:46 - Janardan Hebbar Dr: Super!
6/3/17, 23:14 - Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:
Thank u sir,i ve already go through this.
6/3/17, 23:14 - pawan madan Dr: Very nice.
6/3/17, 23:21 - Katoch sir:
In my view Oja is not multiple. I feel, Oja is indicative of a single synergistic matrix present in cells as primordial genetic medium for beejbhagavyav which determines the psychosomatic framework of the human being and in the whole body as the inherent immunity complex responsible for psychosomatic stability-endurance. Disturbance in the former causes damage to RNA/DNA leading to genetic disorders and disturbance in the second type results from Mithya Aahaar Vihaar leading to autoimmune disorders, abnormal immune responses and immunodeficiency (ओजोदुष्टि, ओजोभ्रंश व ओजोक्शय) !
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Above discussion held on 'Kaysampraday" a Famous WhatsApp discussion group of well known Vaidyas from all over the India.
Compiled & edited by
Dr. Surendra A. Soni
M.D.,PhD (KC)
Associate Professor
Dept. of Kaya-chikitsa
Govt. Ayurveda College
Vadodara Gujarat, India.
Email: surendraasoni@gmail.com
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