WhatsApp Discussion Series 43: "Arjun(terminalia arjuna) and Cardiac-disorders" by Dr. D.C. Katoch, Dr. B.K. Mishra, Dr. Ashwini Kumar Sood, Dr. Bhavesh Patil, Vd. Raghuram Bhatta, Dr. Anita Gayatri, Vd. Pratima Navani, Dr. Vishal Arora & Others.

[7/26, 9:49 PM] Vishal Arora Dr: 

Respected Gurujan,

Arjun and it's compounds are given in all heart disorders including CAD.

Arjun is KASHAYA ras pradhan, and kashaya rasa is SANKOCHAK in nature. So how could a SANKOCHAK guna yukt aushadhi could be given to a case of CAD.

Gurujan, please enlighten !!

[7/26, 9:51 PM] D.C. Katoch Sir: 

That is why Arjun Ksheer Pak or Arjun Ghrit is recommended in Samhitas, not Arjun alone.

[7/26, 9:56 PM] Dr Rupesh Vadher:

What prabhava means here .... Achintya shakti means ???

That can't be assume.

[7/26, 9:56 PM] D.C. Katoch Sir: 

I never prescribe Arjun as stand alone remedy. Secondly, I also take care in which Hridrog Arjun should be used. Heart disease equated to Paittik Hridrog or Pittanubandhi Vaatik or Kaphaj hridrog  are the best indications for Arjun ksheer pak and Arjun ghrit.

[7/26, 9:59 PM] Shivam Sinwar Gngangr:

What about Arjunarishtam sir ?

[7/26, 10:02 PM] D.C. Katoch Sir: 

Arjunarisht is the drug of choice In Kaphaj hridrog associated  with agnimandya, aruchi, aadhmsn, ajirna lakshana.

[7/26, 10:02 PM] Dr Rupesh Vadher:

Vichitra-Pratyarabdha.

[7/26, 10:03 PM] Priy-ranjan Tiwari Dr.:

sankoch karm se hi heart chalta hai e.g. s.a. node and c.p.r.

[7/26, 10:24 PM] D.C. Katoch Sir: 

Arjuna is kashay-ras pradhan dravya. Kashaye-ras is hridyauprodhak. In modern medical terms Arjuna may increase the myocardial contractility necessitating more oxygen requirement, which is not met due to obstructed coronary arteries and can lead to worsening/flaring up of ischemic symptoms. To nullify the sankochak effect of Arjun resulting from its Kashaye ras , ksheer pak and arjun ghrit is recommended. You will not find Vaatik Hridrog in the indications of Arjuna.

[7/26, 10:43 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

Perfect analysis Resp. Katoch Sir !!

Charak has mentioned the use of Arjun in Kaphaj hridroga in chi 26/99 along with other kashaya ras drugs.

[7/26, 10:45 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

स्विन्नस्य वान्तस्य विलङ्घितस्य क्रिया कफघ्नी कफमर्मरोगे ।

कौलत्थधान्यैश्च रसैर्ववान्नं पानानि तीक्ष्णानि च१ शङ्कराणि ॥९६॥

मूत्रे शृताः कट्फलशृङ्गवेरपीतद्रुपथ्यातिविषाः प्रदेयाः ।

कृष्णाशटीपुष्करमूलरास्नावचाभयानागरचूर्णकं२ च ॥९७॥

उदुम्बराश्वत्थवटार्जुनाख्ये पालाशरौहीतकखादिरे च ।

क्वाथे त्रिवृत्त्र्यूषणचूर्णसिद्धो लेहः कफघ्नोऽशिशिराम्बुयुक्तः ॥९८॥

शिलाह्वयं वा भिषगप्रमत्तः प्रयोजयेत् कल्पविधानदिष्टम् ।

प्राशं तथाऽऽगस्त्यमथापि३ लेहं रसायनं ब्राह्ममथामलक्याः ॥९९॥

[7/26, 10:50 PM] Dr Bhadresh Nayak, Surat:

As far as coronary artery disease and hurdrog Ayurveda concepts is more advanced than morden.

All five type having a different sign and symtomps

So every patient having a different medicine

Only arjun is supportive treatment

Study suggests acute fibrillation and arrhythmia is occur.

[7/26, 10:52 PM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr:

Many companies have come up with  caps of arjun . It is recommended that the second layer of bark of Arjun is effective as a cardiAc stimulant , increases cardiac out put combats dyslipidemias .

The research was done by aiims  delhi

[7/26, 11:00 PM] D.C. Katoch Sir: 

Hridrog in Ayurveda is classified as Lakshan, Specific Disease, Updrav and Hridrog Shanka. Arjuna is recommended for specific   hridrog and updrav  only not for symptom (in pandu rog) , and shanka ( as in grahini rog).

[7/26, 11:04 PM] D.C. Katoch Sir: 

Another interesting observation I can share is that hridrog having tachycardia symptom 

(hriddrav) responds best to Arjuna.

[7/26, 11:08 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

Yes Sir !

If we review the trimarmiya chikitsa chapter, charak didn't mentioned the arjun as a wonderful drug as we are observing today's saying.

Basically charak targets the vatanuloman, koshtha shodhan deepan pachan and srotoshodhan as per principle of koshtha, shakha & marmasthisandhi described. Complete Samprapti vighatan of hridroga (except Kaphaj) seems not possible with Arjun only.

[7/26, 11:52 PM] Vishal Arora Dr: 

Thanks Gurujan for your kind consideration of my query about Arjun.

 Yes sir !

Even Dabur have come up with cap lipistat, which contains Arjun, Puskarmool and Guggulu. And company is marketing this combination for Dyslipidemia. I am not able to understand the role of Arjun and Pushkarmool in Dyslipidemia.

Gurujan please guide on this topic also.

[7/27, 12:05 AM] Vishal arora Dr:

Right sir

That is why Parbhakar vati and nagarjunabhra rasa used to increase contractility of Cardic muscle have bhavana of Arjun,  where as Hridyarnava Rasa used to treat CAD is not having Arjun. It have bhavana of makoya swaras.

Thanks for the better clarification sir

[7/27, 8:42 AM] Shantanu Das Prof KC: 

It is a wrong yoga....so far my knowledge is concern.....

Simply....Rasuna guguladi yoga is sufficient to treat lipids disorder.....why maximum companies are preparing such type of yoga....???

[7/27, 8:52 AM] Shantanu Das Prof KC:

Hridaya gati abrodha....can we compare it..cardiac arrest/Heart attack.....and so........Nd so....

Can we prevent this abrodha ...normally affected to many....now days....what prophylactic advices for this type of Hrid roga......Need a open discussion.....because some time ...gases,flatulence ....causes chest pain...nd followed by heart attack....but in many   cases I hv noticed no major heart disease  is lying .....but attack is there.....

What short of medcinal advices shd follow.....

[7/27, 9:22 AM] Shekhar singh Rathod: 

Rasuna Gugguladi Yoga ??

[7/27, 9:52 AM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr: 

Is it LASUNA OR RASUNA ?

[7/27, 11:08 AM] Mansukh Parmar: 

Whatever karma of dravya co relate either rasa or vipaka or virya that is chintya shakti.

[7/27, 11:16 AM] Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik:

Arjun blindly made wonderful drug for cardiac diseases by Pharma companies ! not our acharyas.. shastra give many other factors and treatment modules for hrudrog.

[7/27, 11:21 AM] Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik: 

I can't say anything.

I have never tried to understand nd will not be!! Classical diagnosis and classical treatment is much enough to treat!!

We can blindly rely on shastra (if we don't understand karya Karan bhav) but can't be relied on Pharma companies.

This is my personal view, not necessarily everyone should be agreed....

[7/27, 11:34 AM] D.C. Katoch Sir: 

Pran Vayu is the initiator of cardiac action.  Pran Vayu aavran causes Hridya Upghat 

(Hrit karm Haani), which is equivalent to cardiac block, cardiac arrest depending upon the nature & severity  of damage to the conduct of impulses from S.A. Node  to AV  Node to Bundle of Hiss and Purkinje Fibres i.e. Pran Vayu.  Such Hridrog is usually Kricchhsadhya except the ones falling in to the category of  Vaatik Hridrog can be managed with Anshumati (Shalparni) as said in Charak Samhita- "Hridigate Vaate Anshumatya Payo Pibet". Another important aushadh for this hridrog is Hridyarnav Ras.

[7/27, 11:37 AM] Shantanu Das Prof KC:

 Sorry....it lasuna...in odisaa...lasuna is known as Rasuna.....ha ha

[7/27, 11:41 AM] Dr Bhadresh Nayak, Surat:

Krumij hurdrog can be compared with valvular disease

Many children treated with krumij chikrsta

Evidence from echo heart

Not even clinical signs but echo it's proved

[7/27, 11:42 AM] Shivali Arora KC: 

Respected Gurujans Please guide regarding cardiomyopathies also.

[7/27, 11:54 AM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr: 

When cardiac myocardium cannot supply sufficient amount of blood it gives rise to cardiomyopathy. Idiopathic cardiomyopathy is when exact cause is not know it is age related and responds to treatment with Arjun. Diabetic cardiomyopathy is when small coronary arteries cannot meet the oxygen demand of myocardium. Because of increased end diastolic volume caused by valvular damage in mitral regurgitation or aortic regurgitation it also leads to volume overload cardiomyopathy.

[7/27, 11:57 AM] Dr Bhadresh Nayak, Surat:

According to me it's related to muscle and neurological conditions.

[7/27, 11:57 AM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr: 

Whatsoever cause decreased ejection fraction in LVF may also result in cardiomyopathy.

[7/27, 12:01 PM] Dr Bhadresh Nayak, Surat:

Of course but we have to etiology according to that we plan the treatment.

Lvf and cardiac failures are serious condition.

[7/27, 12:11 PM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr:

Cardiomyopathy sets in many chronic diseases of heart like diabetes , VALVULAR diseases , corpulmonale , CAD etc when the diagnosis is made by ECHOCARDIOGRAPHY nothing much can be done . Yakuti ,makardhwaj Arjun etc I have tried with 0 results.

[7/27, 12:31 PM] Dr B K Mishra Ji:

 Nice Comment Ashwini Sir !

[7/27, 12:32 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

I have given reference ch chi 26/99 yesterday where charak has instructed pushkar mool (being katutikta & sookshm) and arjun in kaphaja hridroga like dhamani pooran/pratichaya. If agni and vayu are correctified properly then said drug should work in dyslipidemia. They claim research product by adding guru pichchhila guggulu.

Vishal ji

[7/27, 12:33 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

Even essential triphala trikatu were ignored for which respected katoch sir has emphasized few days ago.

[7/27, 12:37 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

Yes Ashwini Sir ! true...

The case of cardiomyopathy I shared few months ago could not be saved. He died after 4-5 days.

[7/27, 1:01 PM] Dr B K Mishra Ji: 

कोई द्रव्य जब अपने रस, गुण, वीर्य, तथा विपाक के अनुरूप कार्मुकता व्यक्त नहीं करके कुछ अलग कर्म करता है, उसको प्रभाव कहा  गया है।

रसादि साम्ये यत्कर्म विशिष्टम् तत्प्रभावजम्

यह द्रव्य की विचित्रप्रत्यारब्ध विकृतिविषम संगठन के कारण होती है। क्योंकि इसकी कार्यकारण भाव अर्थात् रस, गुण ,विपाकादि के अनुरूप नहीं समझाया जा सकता, इसलिये इसकी कार्मुकता अचिन्त्यशक्ति से स्वीकार करते हुए उसको अमीमांस्य भी कह दिया है।

आचार्यों ने कुछ उदाहरण दे रखे हैं, जैसे दन्ती और चित्रक के रस और विपाक कटु, तथा वीर्य उष्ण होते हुए भी दन्ती से विरेचन होता है, और चित्रक से नहीं होता। मृद्विक था मधुक में र्सब समान होते हुए भी मधुक वमन करता है और मृद्विका नहीं।इसी प्रकार रस, गुण, वीर्य तथा विपाक समान होते हुये भी घृत अग्नि दीपनं करता है जबकि दूध नहीं करता। यही स्थिति प्रभाव है।

[7/27, 1:25 PM] Shantanu Das Prof KC: 

In Sushruta...u tan...43/4....

Samprapti of hrud roga....most imp point has given......

1' ....Dusaeeta Rasa dosaa....

2. Depostion duseeta rasa casues .....Bigunata....

3.Hrudi baadha.....(both structural....nd functional )....dysfunction develops.......

I think in any type of Heart disease why not we take care of duseeta Rasa...chikitsa......I think it only can prevent.....Hrud badhaa......

Ahara/bihara....r more imp to rectify the duseeta Rasa.......

We shd focus on it.......rest is....on discussion......

[7/27, 1:26 PM] Dr B K Mishra Ji: 

कषाय रस प्रधान अर्जुन को श्रेष्ठ *हृद्य* द्रव्य बताया गया है। क्या कषाय रस प्रधान अन्य सभी द्रव्य भी हृद्य प्रभाव करेंग ? क्षीर पाक या घृतकल्पना से।

[7/27, 1:33 PM] Dr. Amit Makwana: 

अर्जुन को प्रभाव से हृद्य माना गया है ना कि रस से।

और अम्ल रस हि हृद्य कहा गया है।

अतः सभी कषाय रासात्मक द्रव्य हृद्य नही हो सकते !

[7/27, 1:39 PM] Dr Rupesh Vadher: 

चरक के कथन के अनुसार यह बात सही है

[7/27, 9:22 PM] Pradip Soni Dr: 

Arjun has co- enzyme Q10 which is cardio protective.

[7/27, 10:07 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

Nice !!

Thanks for your response.

Please elaborate when you get time.

[7/27, 10:10 PM] Gajanand Chatuphale Vdo: 

Shrunga bhasma

I have used in congenital heart disease..

Had few positive results.

[7/27, 10:10 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

Please give the name of diseases.

[7/27, 10:13 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

I think not. When we talk about prabhav then comparison with Ras only does not seem justified.
Mishra Sir !

As Dr amit has quoted in his opening post.

[7/27, 10:20 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

तन्महत् ता महामूलास्तच्चोजः परिरक्षता ।

*परिहार्या विशेषेण मनसो दुःखहेतवः ॥१३॥*

हृद्यं यत् स्याद्यदौजस्यं स्रोतसां यत् प्रसादनम् ।

तत्तत् सेव्यं प्रयत्नेन प्रशमो ज्ञानमेव च ॥१४॥

Ch Su 30

this is most important regarding cardiac disorders. Ras dushti is initiated with this. Only Ras dushti can't lead CD.

Shantanu Sir !!

[7/27, 10:26 PM] Pankaj Chhayani dr:

 ➡Increased cholesterol= Rasa Dushti

➡ Coronary blockage=Vigunata due to deposition of dusheeta rasa.

[7/27, 10:27 PM] Pankaj Chhayani dr: 

In condition of Coronary blockage, Lekhana chikitsa and correction of RASA dhatu both are important.

[7/27, 10:31 PM] D.C. Katoch Sir: 

नहीं ।  अर्जुन का हृद्य प्रभाव उसके कषाय रस से प्रभावित न हो इसीलिए उसका दुग्धपाक या घृतकल्पना से संस्कारित कर प्रयोग करने का  विधान है। ऐसा अन्य कषाय रस प्रधान द्रव्य, जो हृद्य नहीं, में सम्भव नहीं और न हि अपेक्षित है।

[7/27, 10:35 PM] Pankaj Chhayani dr:

 ➡Increased cholesterol= Rasa Dushti

RASA Dushti plus Manaso dukhaHetav cause CD.

Actually LDL is not bad, but Oxidized LDL is bad. Mental stress converts LDL into Oxidized LDL.

Children usually not become victim of CD due to hyperlilidemia in condition of Nephrotic syndrome.

[7/27, 10:37 PM] Dr B K Mishra Ji: 

कषाय रस का प्रभाव तो किसी मधुर रस प्रधान द्रव्य के संयोजन द्वारा भी प्रशमित किया जा सकता है, फिर दुग्ध या घृतकल्पना ही क्यों ?

[7/27, 10:38 PM] Dr B K Mishra Ji: 

 Point to be noted.

[7/27, 10:39 PM] Katoch sir: कैसे ?

[7/27, 10:39 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

Yes ! Grief/deep sorrow leads to affection to ojas and it finally causes the detectable marma dushti.

[7/27, 10:40 PM] Dr B K Mishra Ji: 

मधुर रस अन्य सभी रसों का शामक होता है

[7/27, 10:41 PM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr: 

Not all pts of cad are grief stricken.

[7/27, 10:42 PM] D.C. Katoch Sir: 

तो चरकादि आप्तों ने वैसा निर्देश क्यों  नहीं दिया ☹

[7/27, 10:43 PM] Pankaj Chhayani dr: 

RASA Dushti hetu=चिन्त्यानां चातिचिन्तनात् !

[7/27, 10:44 PM] Dr B K Mishra Ji: कैसा ?

[7/27, 10:44 PM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr:

Stress alone is not causing CAD.

[7/27, 10:45 PM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr:

There are multiple factors working at the same time.

[7/27, 10:45 PM] Dr B K Mishra Ji: 

But plays most important role.

[7/27, 10:46 PM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr: 

But ever in ours texts do they treat stress.

[7/27, 10:46 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

Just presented that ojas dushti can be corrected with ghrita and ksheer easily....? Previously it was discussed that arjun kalpana is as per doshaja hridroga presentation.

Possible that there may not be detectable grief but patient will not die until the involvement of ojas.

[7/27, 10:46 PM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr:

 Never

[7/27, 10:46 PM] D.C. Katoch Sir: 

मधुर रस अन्य रसों का शामक हो सकता है पर उन रसों के कर्मों का नहीं ।

[7/27, 10:47 PM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr:

Arjun does not remove blockage.

[7/27, 10:48 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

Sattvavajay and whole ch su 30 deals with stress.

Sadvritta & Achar rasayan are instruted specifically for that.
Ashwini Sir !!

[7/27, 10:48 PM] Katoch sir: 

अर्जुन को मधुर द्रव्य के साथ देने का।

[7/27, 10:50 PM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr: 

I can show you ECGS where I have used H.A.RASA and Arjun for 42 days not a 1% change in st and t wave chaged occured.

[7/27, 10:50 PM] Pankaj Chhayani dr: 

Ashru Vega dharana Cause Hridaroga.

As nowadays we are changing our rituals and customs. In old times, after demising of dear, we used to observe all rituals for 12-13 days and during this time period all people cry a lot. Because of crying SHOK SHALYA is removed, but now we complete all rituals within 3-5 days and SHOKA SHALYA remains inside heart and That cause  heart disease.

रोने से मेरा ह्रदय हल्का हो गया, एसा हम सुनते है, महसुस करते है !

[7/27, 10:54 PM] D.C. Katoch Sir: 

रस के कर्म द्रव्य के विपाक से परिलक्षित होते हैं ।

[7/27, 10:56 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

Quite possible because ayurved treats the patient.

Each and every case may be different. That's why brihat trayee don't present arjun as a wonder drug.
Ashwini Sir !

[7/27, 10:58 PM] Dr B K Mishra Ji: 

मेरा तात्पर्य भी यही था कि अर्जुन प्रभाव से ही हृद्य है, और कषाय रस के कारण   अहृद्य नहीं हो सकता। कषाय रस के साथ उसके रुक्ष, लघु गुण उसको लेखन तथा कफपित्त शामक बनाते हैं, जोकि स्रोतोसंग को दूर करने में सहायक होते हैं।

वैसे कषाय रस के शमन के लिये दुग्ध तथा घृत दोनों रस में मधुर ही हैं।

[7/27, 11:01 PM] D.C. Katoch Sir: 

Arjun and HRA Ras are not coronary vaso dilators. Just use Pushkarmool, Kuth, Hinguvachadi Churna or even Brihat ela - you will find better anti-anginal or anti-ischemic effect.

[7/27, 11:07 PM] Bhavesh Patil Dr DG: 

Perfect line of treatment for Hridroga Sirjee !!

[7/27, 11:08 PM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr: 

I have used puskarmool and noted ECG changes no symptomatic relief to pt only theorethical improvement.

[7/27, 11:10 PM] D.C. Katoch Sir: 

अर्जुन किस परिपेक्ष में हृद्य है यह समझना जरूरी है। अर्जुन का उस परिपेक्ष में हृद्य प्रभाव उसके कषाय रस के कर्म को पराभूत करके (क्षीरपाक या घृतपाक द्वारा) ही परिलक्षित होता है।

[7/27, 11:11 PM] Bhavesh Patil Dr DG:

Kashaya rasa is ruksha.

Ruksha guna may trigger Vata. And when treat Hridroga, Vaatanuloman is most important. Bcz of rukshata Vayu pratiloma ho sakta hai.

Dats why to counter-act its rukshata, it is to be treated with Snigdha dravya which will also take care of agni. Hence Ghrita and dugdha is to be us.

[7/27, 11:11 PM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr:

What will be the criteria of diagnosis of HRIDYA ROGA / CAD . Only ECG /tmt and angiography. AYURVEDIC Dr will have only one proof ie ECG .

[7/27, 11:12 PM] Gururaja MB Dr: 

Probable reason why acharyas have used dugdha and ghrita might be they are the best under the category.

[7/27, 11:12 PM] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi:

 *CAD में कुटकी चूर्ण 3-5 gm रोगी बलानुसार दिन में तीन बार लगातार 8-10 महीने प्रयोग कर के देखे,ये लेखन और भेदन दोनो कर्म करती है*

*weight कम हो कर lipid profile की report improve हो जाती है, ह्रदय रोग में लाक्षणिक लाभ जल्दी मिलना शुरू हो जाता है, अर्जुन क्षीर पाक सुबह खाली पेट देने से palpitations  को control कर देता है*!

[7/27, 11:13 PM] D.C. Katoch Sir: 

Pure Pushkarmool in the dose of 2-3 gm has longlasting  nitroglycerine like effect.

[7/27, 11:14 PM] Bhavesh Patil Dr DG: 

In most of the patients of Hridroga, mala vibandh is seen. So Vaat is to be treated here with utmost importance.

[7/27, 11:15 PM] Gururaja MB Dr: 

For all the conditions we need to choose paratwa, here to reduce the effect of  kashaya ras and ruksha gun , snigdha madhura is best, dugdha and ghrita are best in the category hence choosen for the purpose.

[7/27, 11:17 PM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr: 

Only theoretical .

Seeing is believing .

I have selected at least 10 pts did ECG and fed them with puskar 0% results. Only fake experiments done by drs.

[7/27, 11:21 PM] D.C. Katoch Sir: 

I must say your patients might be having calcified coronary arteries or the used pushkarmool was not  the real pushkarmool.

[7/27, 11:23 PM] D.C. Katoch Sir: 

Don't be so judgemental Dr Ashwani, many factors interplay in yielding the results.

[7/27, 11:25 PM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr: 

It was a standardised ext. From Indore . All the pts were of 30 -40 years of age . No question of calcification. How can all the 10 will have calcification ? 

[7/27, 11:25 PM] Raghuram Dr Banguluru:

*About Hridroga, Arjuna, Ghrita and Ksheera*

👉We can look at *Nitya Rasayana* property of *Ghrita* and *Ksheera* apart from being *Madhura*

👉So any herb or compound given with Ksheera and it Ghrita or processed with them might be targeted towards achieving the *Rasayana* effect, apart from nullifying the harmful properties or being supportive or agonist to the helpful or disease modifying property if a herb or compound. Even in case of *Arjuna* in this context.

👉Rasayana is *Swasthasya Oorjaskara or Ojaskara* and therefore the role of Ghrita and Ksheera in the combination would be an overall impact in conservation of health and of course disease modifying when blended with target medicines like Arjuna.

👉Rasayana, including Ghrita and or Ksheera are the methods of achieving optimum quality and quantity of *rasadi dhatus*, and by definition *Swasthasya Ojaskara* to establish optimum ojus too. Again any herb or compound processed or mixed with Ghrita and or Ksheera might have an overall impact on rasadi dhatus in a beneficial way.

👉Some herbs are *best when used with certain anupanas or sahapanas* or when processed with them. Arjuna might have *optimum bioavailability* only with Ksheera or Ghrita.

[7/27, 11:27 PM] Vd Pratima Navani: 

Acharya charak has mentioned   mastu sauveerak gomutra and panchlavana mix in til taila in vaatik hridrog.

[7/27, 11:31 PM] Dr B K Mishra Ji: 

कषाय रस प्रधान तथा रुक्ष तो हरीतकी भी है, किन्तु इसे तो श्रेष्ठ रसायन बताया गया है, साथ ही हृद्रोगों के चिकित्सा योगों में भी स्थान दिया गया है, यह हृदय के लिये हानिकारक क्यों नहीं है।

[7/27, 11:39 PM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr:

Nowadays line of treatment is not solely on coronary vasodialators . That was done 5 -6 yrs back.

[7/27, 11:41 PM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr: 

Preferably cardiac remodelling , decreasing cardiac load such type of drugs are in pipeline.

[7/27, 11:44 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

Unless you do harshan vatanuloman, srotoshuddhi/prasadan as per trimarmiya chikitsa chapter you will not get results as per research done on modern parameters.

Condition of ojas, extension of marma dushti,

balamansa praman etc and History is very important in this regarding this.

Still if you wish to get results then switch to vyadhi pratyanik koopipakwa and gold preparation like yogendra ras or Krishna chaturmukh ras.

[7/27, 11:44 PM] Kapil kapoor: 

ककुभः शीतलो हृद्यः क्षतक्षयविषास्रजित् |

मेदोमेहव्रणान् हन्ति तुवरः कफपित्तहृत्॥ भा़ . प्र .

कषाय + शीत gunas if added with रूक्ष Guna then there will be a devastating platform for स्तम्भन which will otherwise hamper the heart physiology. So to counter that kshaya, ruksha Guna there is ksheepak & ghrit kalpana of Arjuna.

[7/27, 11:45 PM] Dr B K Mishra Ji: 

सर !

वाग्भट्ट ने क्षीर तथा घृत को हृदय रोगों में  वर्जित किया है।

यह विरोधाभास क्यों ?

क्षीरम् दधि गुडः सर्पिः औदक आनूप आमिषम्।

एतान्येव च वर्ज्यानि हृद्रोगेषु चतुर्ष्वपि।।

(अ हृ चि 6/42)

[7/27, 11:45 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

Kutaki works because of anuloman/bhedan karma but can't be used in vatik kridroga with krisha durbal.

[7/27, 11:47 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

B.K. Mishra Sir ! Reference is not correct.

[7/27, 11:47 PM] Dr B K Mishra Ji: 

क्या अनुलोमन करने वाले सभी द्रव्य रसायन भी होते हैं ?

[7/27, 11:48 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

Can't make such principle as per my understanding.

[7/27, 11:51 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

AHC-6 has only 33 shlokas.

Mishra Sir !

[7/27, 11:51 PM] Dr B K Mishra Ji: 

हो सकता है, किन्तु एक बार अष्टांग हृदय चिकित्सा स्थान 6/42 को चेक कर लें !

[7/27, 11:52 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

Check kiya Tabhi to kah raha hu.

[7/27, 11:54 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

It is AHC-8/31

[7/27, 11:54 PM] Dr B K Mishra Ji:

स्तम्भ, जाड्य तथा आम ऐ संयुक्त होने पर वातिक में भी।

[7/27, 11:55 PM] Raghuram Dr Banguluru: 

Mishra Sir ji, *ati sarvatra varjayet*. In the context you have mentioned, probably the acharyas are meaning *only and excessive use*

When used in combination with disease modifying herbs or compound, I feel there should be no problem whatsoever.

Here we need to look at *samyoga* and *samskara* which will bring about *gunantardana* or modification of qualities, properties, *prabhava* and bioavailability of a herb or compound.

Here in context of *Arjuna*, though it may be *kashaya pradhana* when given with or processed with Ghrita and or Ksheera, their *snigdha madhuradi* gunas will modify the action of the herb.

[7/27, 11:56 PM] Dr B K Mishra Ji: 

सर,  क्या सूत्र तो सही है ?

[7/27, 11:56 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: Yes !

[7/27, 11:58 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

This is as per pattern of ras-dushti. I think....

Vatika because of most possibly Agni dushti. A.H. reference.

[7/28, 12:00 AM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

Another aspect is possible srotorodha karakatva of said dravya in presence of agnidushti.

[7/28, 12:38 AM] Gururaja MB Dr: 

Here ksheera and ghrita are contraindicated in hrudrogi.

But when we use ghrita or ksheera for ksheera paka or ghrita paka , they become samskarita ksheera and samskarita ghrita which are not contraindicated. After samskara ksheera and ghrita also contains Arjuna in this context.

[7/28, 12:50 AM] Gururaja MB Dr: 

Haritaki is a multifaceted drug , having wide range of actions, but all its actions are not due to its kashaya ras or ruksha gun. Moreover Haritaki is vichitra pratyarabhda dravya. It behaves according to balabalatwa  of its padarthas. Or dravyagatha padartha paraspara sambhandha.

[7/28, 1:16 AM] Parul Ben Joshi:

Hrudayam CHETANA Sthanam: Sushrut

Anything that Promote Chetana Chaitanya is Hrudya

I give Tab Arjun to my striroga patients having Stress related symptoms & in Infertility; the couple Stops complaining & accusing each other: Saumanasya is Created with the help of Arjun.

[7/28, 6:39 AM] Sukhvir Verma KC: 

What may be the clinical difference in Vatik Hridya roga and Hridyagata Vata. Plz explore


[7/28, 6:40 AM] Sukhvir Verma KC: 

Both are documented separately in Trimarmiya and Vatavyadhi adhyaya☺.

[7/28, 7:33 AM] D.C. Katoch Sir: 

Extract of a plant can not be true representative of the whole plant part to provide the same effect as documented. I frequently use wholesome Pushkarmool, not extract and satisfied with the clinical results.

[7/28, 7:42 AM] pawan madan Dr: 

@⁨Katoch sir⁩ sir..

Thanks for the wonderful explanations about arjun.

Yeterdays diwcussion uas been very good.

Whenever we start anaoysing tue action of q yoga by analytic method...breaking tgeir componant we can go into such type of small confusions.

I understand that we shud the yoga as a whole anf rely on its collective effect..here a compound made with ghee + milk + arjun.

This is the prahav of this yoga and it should not be thaought of simgle ingrediant effect.

This can be seen in many many other yogas also.

[7/28, 7:44 AM] pawan madan Dr: 

Subhash Sir...! is it practically possible to use such an amount of teekahan kutaki that too in tds dose ?

if yes then how ?

[7/28, 8:26 AM] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi: 

*in many patients above 90 kg weight, i use kutaki thrice & thay consume easily*

*पिछले काफी समय से कुटकी से जो gripping pain effect मिलता था वो बहुत कम रह गया है*!

[7/28, 8:46 AM] Sukhvir Verma KC: 

In CAD, there are plaques deposited in arteries. I think these plaques are because of kaph and Vata not only kaph.

Kutki is good for lekhan n bhedan but vat karak. So in my opinion kutki may be good for dyslipidemia but not for CAD.

[7/28, 8:54 AM] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:

Although agree with you substantially, if the शास्त्रोक्त procedure of घन is followed, it may give similar फलश्रुति.

Also, if the scientific process of combination of water extract and ethanolic extract is followed to make it more *full spectrum extract* the efficacy and effect is in coherence with शास्त्रोक्त फलश्रुति.

[7/28, 8:58 AM] D.C. Katoch Sir: 

May be for a particular indication or use.

[7/28, 9:01 AM] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:

क्योंकि इसके कुछ constituents secondary metabolites वसा में ही घुलनशील हैं !

[7/28, 9:01 AM] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:

ठीक उसी प्रकार जैसे त्रिफला के कुछ द्वितीयक चयापचयी संघटक केवल वसा में घुलनशील होने से त्रिफला घृत का निर्माण करना पड़ा आचार्यों को !

[7/28, 9:05 AM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr:

Now a days all the relevant scientific studies which are done in institutions are with exts  only as with terminalia, boswellia, inula etc in the time to come only standraised ext. Personal study without standardised drug stands nowhere.

[7/28, 9:08 AM] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey: 

ठीक उसी प्रकार जैसे कतिपय औषधियों के लिये जलीय क्वाथ से घन, स्वतःउद्भूत आसव, या घृत कल्पनाओं को इसलिये बनाना पड़ा आचार्यों को, क्योंकि उनके भिन्न भिन्न द्वितीयक चयापचयी संघटक भिन्न भिन्न द्रवों में घुलनशील होकर भिन्न भिन्न दोषों के लिये सामान्य - विशेष हो जाती है।

[7/28, 9:09 AM] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:

True for almost all the publications in leading journals, except some studies that are published in our journals here.

[7/28, 9:28 AM] Dr. Amit Makwana: 

Gripping pain by kutki can be very well removed by bharjan....

Thoda bhun liya jaay to gripping kam ya naahi hota hai.... Bus jyada bhuna gaya to effect bhi mild ho jayega....

[7/28, 9:55 AM] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi:

 *good idea*

[7/28, 11:08 AM] Dr B K Mishra Ji: 

क्या इस तथ्य को आयुर्वेदिक द्रव्यगुणविज्ञान की Terminology से भी समझा जा सकता है ।

[7/28, 11:26 AM] Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik:

Then this will be named as herbal study not Ayurvedic study.

[7/28, 11:27 AM] Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik:

100% true

[7/28, 11:28 AM] Bhavesh Patil Dr DG: 

Haritaki is having lavanvarjit panchrasa and ushna veerya whereas arjun is kashaytara and sheeta veerya. Although both hvng kashay rasa and ruksha. Haritaki being ushna won't cause vataprakop or pratiloma due to its ushna veerya (vaat avirodhi), dats why it is rasayan by srotoshodhan and prasadan guna. Whereas Arjun being kashay, ruksha and sheeta is likely to cause vataprakop by all its guna. It's guna are directly proportional to its karma. Hence to nullify that and use its prabhav as Hridya (being target oriented)  it is advised in Shastra to use it with sanskar of Ghrita or Dugdha which won't hamper agni.

[7/28, 11:36 AM] Bhavesh Patil Dr DG: 

That's very informative and something new.

Thanks for sharing madam.

Even I use Arjun twak ghanvati in Shwetapradar having excellent results may be bcz of its kashay rasa and bcz of property that you have mentioned.

[7/28, 11:36 AM] Bhavesh Patil Dr DG: 

Even I have used Arjun twak ghanvati in Hridroga patients too.

[7/28, 1:06 PM] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:

 Excellent analysis.

[7/28, 1:10 PM] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey: 

true indeed. Plus, because it is multi-rasa, multi-vipak, and thus multiple prabhava and multifunctionality.

[7/28, 1:41 PM] Bhavesh Patil Dr DG: 

I request all gurujan and experts to comment about its authenticity.

How shall we consider cholesterol in Ayurved?

hyperlipidemia is just a myth or not ?

[7/28, 1:43 PM] Bhavesh Patil Dr DG: 

Because many Ayurved pharma companies are promoting their anti-hyperlipidaemic medicines. And people also want Ayurved for same rather consuming Atorvastatin or clopidogrel or any blood thinners.

[7/28, 2:13 PM] Vd Pratima Navani: 

Ayurveda classifies AGNI into several varieties: JAATARA AGNI – located in the alimentary tract and performing major metabolic processes, DHATU AGNI – situated at tissue levels and capable of processing metabolic requirements of individual tissues, and BHOOTA AGNI – subtle metabolic processes that happen at the cellular level. Metabolic processes maintain the normal quantity, quality and function of the DOSHA and DHATU. When in abnormal states due to various causative factors relating to body and the mind; metabolites that are not assimilated by the body tissues will be produced. The resultant product of such metabolic action is called AAMA. AAMA is the primary cause of all metabolic disorders in Ayurveda. Once formed it is capable of obstructing the metabolic pathways and causing diseases. Cholesterol is considered as one such product that originates due to metabolic impairment in the alimentary tract and fat tissue (MEDA).

 Literature shows that scholars have tried to use distinct nomenclature for hyperlipidemia, e.g., Rasagata Sneha Vriddhi (increase in lipids in plasma), Rasa Raktagata Sneha Vriddhi (increase in the lipids in plasma and blood), Medovriddhi (generalized lipid increase), Medoroga or Medodosha (obesity), AAMA Medo Dhatu (abnormally formed adipose tissue). A detailed study of hyperlipidemia reveals its similarity to Asthayi Medo Dhatu Vriddhi (abnormal increase in circulating lipids) with regard to the pathophysiology. This excessively increased circulating lipid is AAMA in nature, resulting in further complications. So grossly in hyperlipidemia these symptoms like Soto Rodham, Baabhramsha, Gaurav Anila Moodata,

Alasya, Apakti, Nishteeva ,Malasaga ,Aruchi  ,Klama etc of aamotpatti should be manifested and mere aampachan  can make hyperlipidemia wnl.

[7/28, 2:36 PM] Bhavesh Patil Dr DG: 

Lipid profile/ Cholesterol is a myth or reality in cardiac disorders ?

[7/28, 3:17 PM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr: 

Nice explanation  !

Please throw some light on treatment part also.

[7/28, 4:14 PM] Dr Manu Sharma Pb: 

Dear sir

The disorders vr talking about are lifestyle disorders. At the time our samhitaz were written people usually had a good lifestyle compared to present.exact definition of new age disorders might not be found.

[7/28, 4:16 PM] Vd Pratima Navani: 

Agni Deepak aam pacha, virechak, and rasayan Aushadhi should be used as treatment modality.

Chitrakadi vati, Panchkol churn, ajmodadi churn, hinguvastsk churn etc can be used according to the patient to improve the digestive fire and break down the undigested metabolites (AAMA) in the body.

For example One of the classical drug kaishore gugullu which contains Haritaki fal

Vibhitaki Fruit Amalaki fal Guduchi kand,

Sunthi, Pippali mool, Marich, Vidanga, Danti mool, Trivruth mool

helps to maintain healthy metabolism and remove toxins from the body. It acts as good blood purifier. It stimulates the digestive fire and will help to digest the AAMA, with contents like Sunthi, Pippali, marich which is the main factor to be addressed when we are dealing with hyperlipidemia . One of its main ingredients gugullu which with lekhan karma eliminate aam from dhatu, and has also property to  inhibits the reabsorption of bile salts and acids, causing them to be excreted by the laxative action of triphla Danti mool and trivit mool. Thus, this combination reduces the excessive cholesterol by increasing its catabolism.

Guduchi and triphla as with their rasayan karma helps to promote

 formation of healthy body tissues. It is considered one of the best antioxidants and an effective blood purifier. It helps to improve the circulation and is a very effective formula for hyperlipidemia.

[7/28, 4:34 PM] Anita Gaytri Dr. DG: 

Lifestyle disorders were described in charaka samhita Rasayanaadhyaaya 2nd  praanakaameeya rasaayana paadam. Acharya charaka gave the term ग्राम्य वास ।

[7/28, 4:35 PM] Vd Pratima Navani: 

Sir In ayurveda there is no single entity for cholesterol but if we consider it aam then it can do srotorodh causing hridrog. 

[7/28, 4:36 PM] Anita Gaytri Dr. DG: 

And he listed out all the disadvantages of graamya aahaar in 3rd Shloka.

[7/28, 5:05 PM] Anita Gaytri Dr. DG: 

Bilkul sahi sirji !

[7/28, 5:30 PM] Radheshyam Soni Dr:

 हरीतकी के बारे में एक कथन है-

*चर्बिता वर्धयति अग्निम, पेशिता मलशोधनी।*

*स्विन्ना ग्राही पथ्या, भृष्टा प्रोक्ता त्रिदोषनुत।।*

जब मात्र संस्कार या उदरस्थ करने की प्रक्रिया में परिवर्तन करने मात्र से ही गुण धर्म परिवर्तित हो जाते हैं तो फिर extract तो वैसे भी सम्पूर्ण ग्रहण नहीं है।

इसलिए एक्सट्रेक्ट हमारी औषध की गुणवत्ता को प्रस्तुत करने का मापदंड नहीं हो सकते।

[7/28, 5:49 PM] Pradip Soni Dr: 

अर्जुन का क्षीर पाक या घृत कल्पना इसलिए की क्योंकि CO-enzyme Q10 fat soluble होता है ।

[7/28, 6:46 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

Thanks for guidance.

Please send any link or article if possible for details.

[7/28, 7:00 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

I think hridgat vat is not mentioned. .

Marma chikitsa have been described separately. Marma-vat has not been mentioned. I may be wrong... Please give reference if it is any where.

[7/28, 7:11 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni: 

*बहु अबद्ध मेद*

Mentioned in prameha. Dr. Bhavesh ji !!

[7/28, 7:21 PM] Pankaj Chhayani dr: 

Not hridgata Vata but hradiprakupite is word, and thats only treatment.

[7/28, 7:24 PM] Dr. Surendra A. Soni:

Symptomatology not described.

 It was on question asked.

 So differentiation not possible as per shastra. Interference may be made on the basis of available literature.
Dr. Sukhveer ji !

[7/28, 7:42 PM] Sukhvir Verma J. KC: Yes !

[7/28, 8:23 PM] D.C. Katoch Sir: 

Lot of good discussion on Arjun and Haritaki since yesterday. Both are Kshaye ras pradhan but beneficial in hridroga patients.     I presume -Haritaki is hridya by virtue of  rasa & pranvahsrotoprasadak effect   along with madhur vipak and Arjuna is hridya due to its regulatory effect on heart muscle ( hritbalya- inotropic ) -calcium channel blocker like effect.

*******************************************************************************************************************************

Above discussion held on 'Kaysampraday" a Famous WhatsApp discussion group  of  well known Vaidyas from all over the India. 

Compiled & edited by

Dr.Surendra A. Soni

M.D.,PhD (KC)

Associate Professor

Dept. of Kaya-chikitsa

Govt. Ayurveda College

Vadodara Gujarat, India.

Email: surendraasoni@gmail.com

Mobile No. +91 9408441150