WDS 56: 'Management of high creatinine level' by Prof. Ramakant Sharma, Vd. Subhash Sharma, Dr. Pawan Madaan, Dr. Ashvini kumar Sood, Dr. D. C. Katoch, Dr. Anoop Indouria, Prof. KSR Prasad, Dr. Divyesh Desai & Others.

[4/12, 10:56] Hardik Chandra Kalal Vd:

How to reduce high level of serum creatinine ??

Only one complain weakness...

32 years male young

No dm

No htn

No other complain.

[4/12, 10:57] Dr. Anoop Indoria:

Creatinine level ?

[4/12, 10:57] Hardik Chandra Kalal Vd:

3.7 mg/dl

[4/12, 10:58] Hardik Chandra Kalal Vd:

Please guide..

[4/12, 11:03] yatinder sharma Dr:

If possible do virechan karma....after virechan these levels will come down within 15 days.

If not the there is a product of progen pharma named nefro syrup and capsules.

Tried both it will work for sure....

[4/12, 11:14] Dr. Anoop Indoria:

 I use Arka of Punarnava, Manjistha, Makoy, Sonph, Gorakhmundi 50 ml 5-6 times per day.

Trinpanchmool or Punarnavastaka Kwath TID.

Haritaki Churna or tablet TDS

Langhan

[4/12, 11:19] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir:

 Use mutra virechneeya mahakashay and mutra virajneeya mahakashay as PRAYOGIK dose . No water only this quath, if aruchi allow water.

Measure liquid intake output ratio, If it is equal increase the dose of mahakashay gradually, it will increase urine output and due to srotosuddhi criatinine will come down .5 mg/dl in 15 days speed.

Use laxative, gokshuru siddha yavagu as diet.

[4/12, 11:27] Puspendraji Dr:

केवल कुश (डाभ) मूल  क्वाथ ही पर्याप्त है|

[4/12, 11:28] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir:

श्रेष्ठ विकल्प, परिणाम मूल की मौलिकता पर निर्भर है

[4/12, 12:35] Prof. KSR Prasad Tachnoayurveda:

Increased creatinine suggests on first hand decreased kidney function and on the other hidden infection and immuno- suppression.... could be resultant of excess muscular action like walking or standing...

The treatment should include punarnava gokshura guduchi vidanga  and regulated muscle action.. means the rest or minimal walking.

[4/12, 12:57] Dr Divyesh Desai:

Rule out Jvar history Dushivish History Other details as per Ayuvedic point of View and than decide line of treatment. If even mild jvar is their than Use Shadangpaniy Galoghan Sudarshanghan with Chandraprabha & Punarnava as a Vyadhiviparit with Virechan as pet prakruti Some times Creatinine level Increase because of Jvar updrav.

[4/12, 13:02] Dr Divyesh Desai:

If recurrent history of U.T.I. or STONE than Mutravirechan drugs are useful. And appropriate Antibiotics are useful.

[4/12, 17:29] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi:

*पिछले दिनो सोनी सर ने जलोदर में गुड़ हरीतकी प्रयोग बताया था, 10-12 दिन पहले CRF के एसे तीन रोगियों को पहली बार 10gm हरीतकी और 20 gm गुड़ का सेवन कराया आशा से ज्यादा लाभ मिला, विशेष कर एक रोगी की HB% भी बढ़ गई, गुड़ हरीतकी विरेचन से 10 दिन में 1.8 kg तक weight reduce हुआ।दूसरा चित्र आज और अभी थोड़ी देर का ही है।*

*2 patients नें फोटो देने के लिये मना कर दिया था।*

*s.cr level reduce करने के लिये सूत्र है पुरीष एवं मूत्रवाही स्रोंतो का शोधन जैसा कि Dr R K Sharma ji ने लिखा है इस से जिस प्रकार के परिणाम मिलते है

[4/12, 17:35] Bhavesh Patil Dr DG:

Was there anything else given as a part of treatment than this ?

[4/12, 17:44] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr:

Its better to first examine the pt clinically . As you have ruled out dm, ht which are the main causes of chronic renal disease a rise in s creatinine which always gradual in nature . Hb falls , ca falls, puffiness appears . With fall in hb breathlessness appears.

[4/12, 17:46] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr:

So its better to please send the complete record of investigations , clinical examination, etc before jumping to the treatment right away.

[4/12, 17:48] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr:

 History should include a sudden rise or gradual rise of s cr . A sudden rise means a toxic drug of aminoglycocide gr or cephalosporin was administeted.

[4/12, 17:57] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi:

*ashmari har kwath, punarnava guglu & churna, hajrool yahood, phaltrikadi kwath etc etc.*

[4/12, 17:58] Dr Giriraj Sharma: 🌹

[4/12, 18:40] Dr Bhadresh Nayak, Surat:

It's value of knowledge and experience of legends ayurvedacharya🙏🌹

[4/12, 20:27] pawan madan Dr:

Sir....🙏🙏

क्या मुत्र विरेचनिये द्रव्यो से मुत्र का निसर्ग बढ़ेगा...?

[4/12, 20:30] pawan madan Dr:

 वाह

अतियुतम

सर कितनी मात्रा मे कितने दिन तक दिया आपने ?

[4/12, 20:43] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi:

*चिकित्सा कई दिन से चल रही थी, रोगी के घर में pesticides का प्रयोग हुआ तो उसे allergy हो कर सारे शरीर में शोथ और जलोदर हो गया, कुटकी, एरंड भृष्ट हरीतकी से भी जलोदर में लाभ नही मिला को सोनी सर का अनुभूत प्रयोग दिया और 10-12 दिन में ही काफी आराम आ गया, रोगी को इस से दिन में 4 -5 बार मृदु विरेचन हो जाते हैं*

[4/12, 20:44] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi:

*हरीतकी 10 gm गुड़ 20 gm*

[4/12, 20:44] pawan madan Dr:

जी....क्या आप इसे दिन मे दो बार दे रहे थे ?

[4/12, 20:46] pawan madan Dr:

*और ये प्रयोग से जलोदर पर तो लाभ हुआ ...क्या इस से creatine level पर कुछ प्रभाव आया या नही*??

[4/12, 20:46] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi:

 *जी हां, सुबह खाली पेट और रात्रि सोते समय, पहले दो दिन केवल रात्रि में ही दिया पर विरेचन आशा के अनुरूप नही हुआ*

[4/12, 20:47] pawan madan Dr: जी

[4/12, 20:48] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi:

*इस patient का cr. Level हर 15 दिन में test हो रह था पर पहली बार इस level पर आया है*

[4/12, 20:48] Dr Harish Canada:

Is it a single dosage or can be devided in two or three doses ?

[4/12, 20:48] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi:

*Single dose sir*

[4/12, 20:48] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir:

 हाँ मैं 1985 से इसेप्र योग कर रहा हूँ । 

in crf in using both virechneey and virajneey mahakashay frequently. Having excellent results in mutra sang / mutra Ghat आँख मींचकर प्रयोग करने लायक कल्पना है ।

एक पेशेन्ट का एक ट्रांस्प्लांट फ़ेल हो गया था दूसरे की तैयारी चल रही थी स्वीकृति नहीं थी उसे किसी ने मेरी दवा विरेचनीय विरजनीय लिखी तब वह मेरे पास आया । मैंने उस पेशेंट को लगभग 8 साल तक मेंटेन किया फिर कैन्युला से संक्रमण होकर उसका देहावसान हुवा।

1998 के आसपास मेरे पास लगभग 80-90 लोग इसकी चिकित्सा लेते थे अब भी लम्बे समय तक डायलिसिस प्रिवेंट कर सकते है , बिना बस्ति के ।

[4/12, 20:51] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi:

*हो सकता है मेरे द्वारा दी जा रही पहले की विरेचनीय औषधियों में कुछ कमी रही हो जो इस से पूर्ण हुई*

[4/12, 20:52] Dr Surendra A Soni:

*गुड़-हरीतकी*

पुनर्वसु आत्रेय उपदिष्ट

अग्निवेश पृष्ट

चरक वर्णित

प्रोफेसर के के उपाध्याय प्रयुक्त

कर्म अभ्यास द्वारा परिष्कृत ।।

जय आयुर्वेद ।।

🙏🙏

[4/12, 20:56] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi:

*very true sir*

🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏

[4/12, 20:57] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

👏👏👏👌👌👌👌👌

[4/12, 20:58] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

Sir would u explore

Meanings of viranjaniya

🙏🙏🙏🙏

[4/12, 20:59] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir:

 मेरा निजी अनुभव जनित सारांश यह है कि हरीतकी को ख़ाली पेट देने पर ही यह अनुलोमन प्रभाव दिखाती है भोजनोपरान्त तो पाचन होकर रह जाती है । प्रसंग चल रहा है इसलिये बताता हूँ ।

चरक संहिता शोथ चिकित्सा में एक योग आता है कंस हरीतकी जो अन्य ग्रंथों मे दशमूल हरीतकी के नाम से वर्णित है ।

फल श्रुति में अनेक व्याधियाँ वर्णित हैं हमने विधि विशेष से निर्माण करके अधिक वीर्यवान बनाया । मुझे याद है एक बंगाली कृषकाय त्वगास्थिशेष आमवातिक ग़रीब रुग्णा केवल कंस हरीतकी , शोथहर महाकषाय एवम् पंचकोल से ठीक हुई , उसे गोद में लाये थे और वो घरेलू कार्य करके कमाने लगी । गुड व हरीतकी प्रधान योग है शोधक मात्रा में प्रयोग करने पर मधुमेह में ग़ज़ब का लाभ दिखाती है गुड होने से कई लोग प्रयोग नहीं करते डर से , मैंने बहुत किया और यह गप्प नहीं है ।

[4/12, 21:01] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

 Thanks a lot sir

U r motivating us by sharing ur wonderful experience 👌👌👌👍👍👍🙏🙏🙏

[4/12, 21:01] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:

जबर्दस्त जानकारी ।

[4/12, 21:02] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:

 Great update! 👌👌🙏

[4/12, 21:03] Bharat Padhar Vd:

 Excellent sirji....💐💐💐

[4/12, 21:04] Dr Pratibha P Mahesh:👌👍

[4/12, 21:04] Rameshwar Rao Rane Mu:

Very informative 🙏🙏

[4/12, 21:04] Dr Govind Gupta, Khanpur:

But empty stomach it may produce nausea many patients.

[4/12, 21:05] Dr Pratibha P Mahesh: 👍👌

[4/12, 21:05] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi: 👌👌👌👌👌

[4/12, 21:05] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:

It would be useful to share more experience by colleagues about the challenges that Haritaki + gud can come to rescue.

Also, it would also be useful to know under what circumstances this yog may be avoided.

[4/12, 21:09] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi:

*ayurved की new generation को कोई भी संदेह ना रहे इसलिये यह प्रयास किया गया कि इस case को प्रमाण अर्थात report और image सहित present किया जाये।*

[4/12, 21:15] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir:

 अच्छा पृश्न किया है आपने डॉ अंकुर , साधु !!

मूत्र व पुरीष दोनों के विरजनीय महाकषाय है दशेमानि में।

मूत्र व मल में स्थित दोषों को हटाकर सामान्य अवस्था में लाने के अर्थ में प्रयुक्त होता है विरजन शब्द । मुझे भी संदेह था मेरी पत्नी को भी कि रक्त मेंक्रियेट्निन व यूरिया बढ़ता है तो शोणितविरजनीय गण होना चाहिये मूत्र विरजन क्यों ? बादमें समझ में आया प्रोटीन की मूत्र मे उपस्थिति से भी मूत्र का भी विरजन करना जरूरी है प्रारम्भिक अभिव्यक्ति का स्थल है मूत्र कालान्तर में रक्ताभिव्यक्ति होती है , तथा मूत्र का विरजन हो जाय तो अन्य विपरीत लक्षणों की अनुपस्थिति में शोणितशुद्धि का प्रमाण माना जाना चाहिये ।

[4/12, 21:15] pawan madan Dr:

This is really great.

I was only thinking thatt i  is wrkung only as mutral dravy then it may burden the already compromized kidny but *as it is actibg as mutravah sroto shudhi kaarak* ...this is very good...

You have said to give this in PRAYOGIK dose...... what do u mean by this ?

[4/12, 21:15] Dr Surendra A Soni:

नमो नमः गुरूजी ।।

🙏🙏👏🌹💐👍

[4/12, 21:20] pawan madan Dr:

🙏🙏🙏🙏💐💐💐

[4/12, 21:27] Dr Surendra A Soni:

You may Add discussed nimbu swaras leha which was used by Pandey Sir to control nausea !! Dr Govind Gupta ji ।

🙏

[4/12, 21:28] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir:

बहुत अच्छा पृश्न है पवन मदान जी साधुवाद !!!

औषधि देने के अनेक काल वर्णित है जो सब जानते है । अनेक जगह जीर्ण व्याधियों में एतत् प्रयोगिकम् भक्ष्यम् ऐसा लिखा आता है आचार्यों ने अल्पमात्रिक , दीर्घकालिक मुहुर्मुहु प्रयोग के अर्थ में प्रयोगिक भक्ष्य बताया है ।

वृक्क रोगों में मूत्र क्षय एक प्राथमिक लक्षण होता है ,जो स्रोतो संगज है , संग का हेतु पित्तदोषज एकदेशीय शोथ है जो मूत्रवहस्रोतस् के विविध अंगावयवयों के शोथ के नाम से वर्णित है आधुनिक चिकित्सा विज्ञान द्वारा।

निदान होते ही डाक्टर जल कम लेने का परामर्श देते है ताकि शोथ न हो जाय । कालान्तर में स्रोतोशोथजपैत्तिक स्रोतोसंग  का लक्षण मूत्रक्षय, वाह्यधातुअभावज (जल अभावज) मूत्रक्षय में परिवर्तित हो जाता है, लक्षण वही है हेतु व विधि सम्प्राप्ति बदल जाती है । ऐसे मे यह प्रयोग अपरिशुद्धजन्य निदानार्थकर रोग में परिवर्तित होने की प्रक्रिया प्रारम्भ हो जाती है ।

[4/12, 21:29] Dr Surendra A Soni:

बल-मांस-प्रणाम-सत्त्व हीन अविश्वासी वैद्यमानी में संदेह रहता है ।

🙏🙏

[4/12, 21:29] pawan madan Dr:

मै मुत्र विरजनीय से... मूत्रवह स्रोतो शोधक का अर्थ ग्रह्ण करता रहा....क्या ये उचित है ?

[4/12, 21:29] Dr Surendra A Soni:

 👌👌👏🙏💐🌹

[4/12, 21:30] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi: 🙏

[4/12, 21:31] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir:

 ऐसे मे अहर्निश सम्प्राप्ति भेदन प्रक्रिया हेतु प्रायोगिक भक्ष्य का उपदेश है । यथा वृक्क रोगों में मैं जल के स्थान पर विरजनीय व विरेचनीय क्वाथ, liquid intake urine output comparison, भार परीक्षा से बढ़ाने का निर्णय लेकर चिकित्सा करनी चाहिये ।

[4/12, 21:35] pawan madan Dr:

just to add ..... 

MUTRAVIRAJNIYA GANA -

 पद्मोत्पलनलिनकुमुदसौगन्धिकपुण्डरीकशतपत्रमधुकप्रियङ्गुधातकीपुष्पाणीति दशेमानि मूत्रविरजनीयानि भवन्ति (३४),

PADMA – KAMAL – NELUMBO NUCIFERA

UTAPAL - NYMPHEA ALBA - EUROPEAN WHITE WATER LILLY – a possible variety of KAMAL

NALIN – a variety of KAMAL

KUMUDA – ALSO a variety of KAMAL

SAUGANDHIKA - not known

PUNDARIK - a red variety of KAMAL

SHATAPATRA – also a variety of KAMAL

MADHUKA – MULETHI

PRIYANGU – CALLICARPA MACROPHYLA

DHATAKI FLOWERS – WOODFORDIA FRUITICASA

[4/12, 21:36] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir:

 तदेतत् स्रोतसाम् प्रकृतिभूतत्वात् न विकारै उपसृज्यते शरीरम् first pathology at srotas leval, vyadhi adhisthan , first abhi vyakti at vanha dhatu in every disease ,vyadhi vyakti Starla mutra का जो विरजन करेगा वही स्रोतो शोधन करेगा ।रसवह एवम् स्वेदवह स्रोतोशुद्धि या संग निवारण के बिना संतापनाश या ज्वरहर कार्य नहीं होता ऐसे समझना चाहिये ।

[4/12, 21:37] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi: 🙏🙏

[4/12, 21:37] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

 Definitely sir

[4/12, 21:38] Rameshwar Rao Rane Mu:

 पुरीषस्यविरजनं दोषसम्बन्धनिरासं करोतीति पुरीषविरजनीयः| एवंमूत्रविरजनीये व्याख्येयम्| मूत्रस्य विरेचनं करोतीतिमूत्रविरेचनीयः|

[4/12, 21:38] Rameshwar Rao Rane Mu:

 Chakrapani tika ☝

[4/12, 21:39] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir:

 SAUGANDHIKA - not known the term also used for kamal you can take anyone

PRIYANGU – CALLICARPA MACROPHYLA

DHATAKI FLOWERS – WOODFORDIA FRUITICASA

[4/12, 21:39] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:

Ramakant Sir👌🌹

[4/12, 21:42] pawan madan Dr:

 vaaah.....alpakaalika....deerghkaalika....muhurmhura....Prayogika....!

[4/12, 21:44] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir:

पुरीषस्यविरजनं दोषसम्बन्धनिरासं is the biggest word used by Chakrapani in the situation of total doshsambandhniras no disease can exist neither any symptoms. No need to use other thing,

Virechan is essential because to purify the whole system continue wash , beautiful words showing all mode of action difficult to understand by pharmacodynamic and pharmacokinetics. Only one word is sufficient दोषसंबंधनिरसन

[4/12, 21:44] pawan madan Dr:

sir...vahya dhatu...

[4/12, 21:45] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir:

 वाह्यधातु any dhatu which flows inside the srotas is termed as vahyaman dhatu,vahyadhatu.

[4/12, 21:47] pawan madan Dr:

Ohhh...Okkk sir !

[4/12, 21:50] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir:

 पुरीष में विरजन कर दीजिये , ग्रहणी दोष व अग्नि दोष बच ही नहीं सकता । weakest point of samprapti should be assessed and attacked or if one has medicine vital point should be assessed and attacked for samprapti bhedan.

[4/12, 21:51] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir:

 Radhey Radhey

गरदन दुख गई आज तो ..

आनन्दम् ब्रह्म इति व्यजानात् ||

[4/12, 21:52] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:

बहुत महत्वपूर्ण दिशा 👌👌👌👌🙏🙏🙏

[4/12, 21:52] pawan madan Dr:

 wonderful point ramakant sir.....!

I am experiencing this.......but I didnt know......why this was giving results.

[4/12, 21:53] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir:

अल्पमात्रिक दीर्घकालिक मुहुर्मुहु है प्रभु जी !!!

[4/12, 21:53] Prof. KSR Prasad Tachnoayurveda: 👏👍

[4/12, 21:53] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:

Absolutely brilliant analysis and way forward today by Prof. R. K. Sharma ji 🙏👌🌹

[4/12, 21:54] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

It is surprising that in kidney disease with increased Creatinine and Urea level, mutral and mutraviranjiya aushadhies are used/prescribed by the Ayurveda practitioners. Don't you think instead of mutral and mutraviranjiya aushadh, virechana/anulomak aushadh should be given to reduce absorption of mutra kitt from pakvashaye by impeding vivikti ( separation) of mutra kitt from  aahar ras. This concept of treatment is clearly explained in the context of shoth and udarroga resulted from kidney disease.  I think, giving mutral and mutraviranjiya aushadh to kidney patients will enhance the kidney damage/injury but avoiding them will provide physiological rest to the kidney. Mutral and mutraviranjiya aushadh in my opinion are meant for prameha affecting urinary composition & amount due to pre-renal causes and not due to renal cause.

[4/12, 21:54] pawan madan Dr:

😛😛😇😇.........jyada hi khush ho gyaa mai....he he

[4/12, 21:54] Dr Giriraj Sharma: 💐

सर बाह्य धातु  है तो अन्तः धातु भी होगी ।

दोनो का अंतर

कोष्ठ और आशय के परिपेक्ष्य में थोड़ा विश्लेषण ?

[4/12, 21:56] pawan madan Dr:

Valid points.......no sir.....thats why I raised that question.....I dont use mutral aushadhis as I know it can cause lod to the kidneys.....and that was my point to clarify and understand Mutravirajniya,,,,

[4/12, 21:57] Dr Bhadresh Nayak, Surat: 👌👍👆

[4/12, 21:57] pawan madan Dr:

The point is Doing mutravaha sroto shudhi.....by whatever herb or medicines.....

[4/12, 21:57] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir:

 वाह्य शब्द है

बाह्य टाइप हो गया स्वत: शुद्धि से |

[4/12, 21:58] Dr Giriraj Sharma: ok SIR

[4/12, 22:02] pawan madan Dr:

Sir kya isi tarah iska pryoga nephrotic syndrome me bhi laabhkaari ho saktaa hai? Aapka kyaa anubhav hai ?

[4/12, 22:06] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

Not clear what you want to clarify.

[4/12, 22:08] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir:

धातुएँ द्विविध त्रिविध एवम् विविध होती है

१-स्थानस्थ अपने स्थान में स्थित रहने वाली अंतिम परिणाम को प्राप्त कर चुकी ,

आन्तरिक धातु

२-मार्गग - वहन हो रही परिणमप्रक्रियागत-प्रक्ियारत धातु

१-स्वधातुपोषक

२- पर धातु पोषक

इस तरह आन्तरिक तो होती ही है

बाह्य भी होती है

आपके व्यंग को मैं समझ गया मगर वास्तव में होती है |

[4/12, 22:09] pawan madan Dr:

I want to say that I need to use those herbs which does mutrvasroto dushti correction....meaning correcting the pathology in the kidney parenchymal tissue.....and if mutravirajniya dravyas are able to perform that function.....only then its fine to use them.........!

[4/12, 22:10] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir:

हाँ करके देखिये

शमयति , चेत् शंका तर्हि दत्वा परीक्षेत् ..

[4/12, 22:10] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

अगर इस तरह के भाव एक गुरु के शिष्यों औऱ जिज्ञासा के प्रति है तो निश्चित ही हमारे समर्पण में कमी रह गयी ।

💐

[4/12, 22:10] pawan madan Dr: ji

[4/12, 22:11] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

Any evidence or validation of such an hypothesis ?

[4/12, 22:12] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir:

भिषक् द्रव्याणि उपस्थाता व रोगी चारों का समन्वय होने से ही सफलता मिलेगी केवल द्रव्य से नहीं, अत: प्रयोग उचित है पर सावधानी नहीं अपितु सततावेक्षण आवश्यक है ।

[4/12, 22:13] pawan madan Dr:

only Anubhava janya...

[4/12, 22:13] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir:

आनन्द कीजिये

आनन्द ही करणीय है

💐💐💐

आनन्द से इतर कुछ नहीं करना है |

[4/12, 22:15] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

बाह्य और आभ्यंतर धातु से मस्तिष्क में नई बात उतपन्न हुई थी इस लिए जिज्ञासा मात्र थी ।

कोष्ठ और आशय के परिपेक्ष्य में

कोष्ठ में आश्रित धातु एवं आशय में आश्रित (कुछ समय के लिए ) धातु  को लेकर जिज्ञासा थी ।

जिसे आपने वाह्य एक शब्द बोलकर शंका समाधान कर दिया ।💐

[4/12, 22:18] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

आंनद के परिपेक्ष्य में

आनन्द को आचार्य सुश्रुत ने कर्मेन्द्रिय का  कर्म कहा है । जबकि आनन्द एक अनुभति है ।

[4/12, 22:25] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir:

It is surprising that in kidney disease with increased Creatinine and Urea level, mutral and mutraviranjiya aushadhies are used/prescribed by the Ayurveda practitioners.

This is one style, doesn't mean other styles are incorrect.

Don't you think instead of mutral and mutraviranjiya aushadh, virechana/anulomak aushadh should be given to reduce absorption of mutra kitt from pakvashaye by impeding vivikti ( separation) of mutra kitt from  aahar ras.

Virechak anulomak aushadhies are not increasing vivikti they are reducing chance of vivikti ,hink on this also ,

This concept of treatment is clearly explained in the context of shoth and udarroga resulted from kidney disease.

Agreed if all the theories of shotha chikitsa can be applied at a time or as required , it is the best Way to treat renal disease also but we must clarify strategy ...

Athamajam langhan pachankramai ....

Hetu vipareetata should be established first may be difficult some times or so many times for the physician,

I think, giving mutral and mutraviranjiya aushadh to kidney patients will enhance the kidney damage/injury but avoiding them will provide physiological rest to the kidney.

Srinking of kidneys due to decreased water intake is the example , which shows rest for kidneys is not justified.

Mutral and mutraviranjiya aushadh in my opinion are meant for prameha affecting urinary composition & amount due to pre-renal causes and not due to renal cause.

May be but I feel I'm in the stage to understand the shastra .

[4/12, 22:30] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

May we have perceptional difference about what is given in Shastra.

[4/12, 22:31] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir:

 Yes

So many times only perceptions differences are there. Sometimes we conclude in hurry .

[4/12, 22:36] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

But the considered views can not be denied.

[4/12, 22:37] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir:

Certainly sir,

Views provides chances for review , which ultimately leads to truth ,which is objective.

[4/12, 22:38] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

Fully endorse this view.

[4/12, 22:41] Dr Bhadresh Nayak, Surat:

 This is really tadvidhsambhasa

Entresting debut

Thanks to all legends ayurvedacharya.

[4/12, 22:53] Dr Surendra A Soni:

With my small understanding that such caution is applicable for drugs/formulations containing bhasma/ ras or kshar etc like Chandra prabha arogyavardhini sheet parpati etc.

Herbal formulations are exception.

Humble submission !!

🙏🙏

[4/12, 23:05] pawan madan Dr:

Intersting air...even in some cases rasa aushadhis are acting as mutravah sroto shudhikaarak.....strange....

[4/12, 23:06] Dr Surendra A Soni:

Especially loaded dose needs precaution.

[4/12, 23:33] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi:

*CLD CKD COPD HEPATITIS B PCOD CAD, these are the burning problems today.No available established & SARVMANYA AYURVEDIC treatment for them,the better the discussion is on these.*

[4/12, 23:40] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi:

*अधारणीय वेग धारण का मूत्र वेग धारण  is one of the biggest cause of CKD*.

[4/12, 23:43] Dr Harish Canada:

 It cannot be biggest.

[4/12, 23:45] Dr Harish Canada:

The biggest causes of chronic renal failure are diabetes mellitus and high blood pressure.

[4/12, 23:55] Dr Harish Canada:

 Sometimes over dosage of Ras Aushadhi also cause Renal failure.

Please note I am writing in general, not for qualified Kaya Chikitasak.

Many studies have been published in Nephrology Journals.

Some members do not accept the truth.

[4/12, 23:55] Dr Harish Canada:

*Acute renal failure secondary to ingestion of ayurvedic medicine containing mercury.*

Sathe K, et al. Indian J Nephrol. 2013.

Show full citation

Abstract

Several traditional medicines contain potentially toxic heavy metals. Heavy metal poisoning is not an uncommon cause of renal damage, although the diagnosis can be easily missed. We report a case of chronic ingestion of an ayurvedic medicine containing mercury in a 2-year-old girl, resulting in anuric renal failure due to acute interstitial nephritis.

[4/12, 23:57] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:

 *Bhasmas that are not made following a proper procedure will always be the cause of concern, as they were during the time this technology originated.*

[4/13, 00:02] pawan madan Dr:

Sir ....kaise maan le jab ke rasaushadhis se hamaare patients theek ho rahe hain.

😅😅😅

[4/13, 00:06] pawan madan Dr:

Every case of such a disease is different.

*So better we should adopt the subjective approch in such cases. We as ayurvedist can make a particular nidaan and then work accordingly. I have dealt with hundreds of CKD pts for example....but I still am unable to write a single treatment plan which can work similarly in most of the cases of CKDs.*

[4/13, 00:17] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi:

*It has been said about allopathic diagnosed cases*

*शब्दों को ना पकड़ कर भाव समझो मेरे मित्र 😀😀😀😀😀*

🙏🙏🙏🙏

[4/13, 00:21] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi:

*आपका कहना सही है*

[4/13, 00:59] Dr Harish Canada:

I am not against Ras Aushadhi. Many Vaidyas have cured CKD with Sarvtobhadra Ras. But as Dr Pandey has mentioned if 'Bhasma or Ras Aushadhi' is not prepared as per texts or the dosage is not as per text then it can cause problem.

In India most of the Karyana shopkeepers sell Ras Aushadhi, even they sell Samir Panag Ras etc. They have no idea how much it is to be given to 2 yr old child.

Its just an example.

Many companies are advertising Sidh Makardhwaj products. They mention there is no side effects. People are using for years and years.

Regulators should look into it.

The sale of Ras Aushadhi should be controlled as Schedule-H drugs are in allopathy.

[4/13, 06:56] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

Well said

Sir

U always keep important matter very genuinely .

Good morning

🙏🙏🙏

[4/13, 06:57] Vd Pratibha Navani: 👏👏👌👍

[4/13, 07:05] Sanjay Chhajed Dr. Mumbai:

It's a wonderful experience Ramakant sir, thank you for sharing.

[4/13, 07:20] Sanjay Chhajed Dr. Mumbai:

Sir, I have a small query, how the dhatu become dushya at every level of the Dhatu pariposhan?

How can the chikitsa siddhant may differ on the involvement of different stages of dhatu in the formation of the disease ?

[4/13, 07:23] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir:

अत्यन्त सार्थक समुचित सामयिक और सर्वथा उपयोगी पृश्न है इसे अंतिम रूप से समझने के लिये धातुपोषण क्रम पुन: देख लीजिये मूल पुस्तक से फिर शाम को बात करते हैं |

[4/13, 07:57] priy ranjan tiwari Dr.:

diclofenac sabse jyada CKD cause karta hai.

[4/13, 07:58] priy ranjan tiwari Dr.:

but we should careful about rasaausadhi too.

[4/13, 08:07] Dr Divyesh Desai:

Sir our Aacharya clearly not mentioned Renal Failure but Mutraghat

Mutrkruchchha &

Somehow

Pitaj Prameh

Udarrog,

Shoth are corelate with modern ARF or CRF . Sir why we Ayurved  consultant against of Rasaushdhi Bhasma if we all know about BHASHMAPATIXA

LIKE

REKHAPURNA

VARITATVAM

UNNAM

SUXMA

NISCHANDRA

APUNARBHAV .So my points are Bhasma & Rasaushdh are not bad but As per our Sonisir's advice we can use carefully. Renal failure is not due to Rasaushdh but due to pharmacy bad policy or not known of production of proper RASAUSHDH.

JAY DHANVANTARI

[4/13, 08:11] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

What is Mutra Kshaye, Sangaj Mutravah Srotodushti  then ?. These conditions in Ayurveda correspond to ARF,  CRF.

[4/13, 08:11] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

Is there any quality control while preparing ras aaushadhi.in india???

do all companies fulfill criteria of shodhan, maran ,etc important steps???

these are important concerns.

[4/13, 08:13] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

Aetiologically Sahaj, clinically definitely Sannipatik.

[4/13, 08:23] Dr Divyesh Desai: Yes sir !

[4/13, 08:23] Vd Pratibha Navani:

 creatinine are indicative of mutravahasrotasduṣṭi. medovaha srotoduṣti can be considered because vṛkka which was

affected in this disease is a root of medovaha

shrotas. Decreased filtration rate and oligo-uria

indicates dysfunction of vāta. Here increased

level of s. creatinine which is waste product of

body can be considered as malasaṅcaya ama.

Electrolyte imbalance is considered as rasa duṣṭi. So, involvement of dosa, dhatu, mala

concluded as per symptoms are:

Doṣa- Vāta kaph Pradhan tridosha

Duṣya-Rasa, Rakta, Mamsa, Meda

Mala-Sveda, Mutra

Srotas- Medovaha, Mootravaha; Srotas duṣṭi

type: Sanga and  vimargagaman

Agni-  Jathragni Dhatvagni

 Treatment should be correspond to rasayan kalp medvah dhatu dusti aushadh like varunadi kashaya and mutra viranjaniye and mutravurechaniye dravya and sandhaniye and rasayan aushadh like (madhuyasti gochur punarnava) karma vasti  to correct the mutravashrotodusti.Vasti is because it will pacify and mutra nirmaan is in pakwashaya.🙏

[4/13, 08:25] Dr Divyesh Desai:

Thanks sir for guidance.

[4/13, 08:26] Vd Pratibha Navani:

 Sarvatobhadra ras maheshwar vati are indicated but parad and parad kalpa are varjya  Refer Sharangdhar Samhita For This Ref. - 1) Paarad and Paarad Kalpa Are Contraindicated.... "व्याधिवृद्धिकरत्वात रससिद्धं हि भेषजम् । दूरतः परिवर्ज्यं स्यादित्यायुर्विदुषां मतम् ॥ 🙏" (भैषज्य रत्नावली) अर्थ - वृक्क रोगो मे पारद रोगवृद्धीकर होने से पारद और पारद योगों का सेवन वर्जित है । ऐसी वैद्यों कि संमती है ।

[4/13, 08:32] Shridutta Trivedi Dr:

 Cha.su.4 me diye gaye 50 maha kashay

prakruti sthapan ka karya karte he...

[4/13, 08:35] Sanjay Chhajed Dr. Mumbai:

Dear Surendraji and all the admin, a small request. The discussion like ckd or dhatu is so wonderful and educational that I would request some of you to compile and make it a easy book to be shared with all of us & for those who are not aware of the basic facts and not the part of the discussion. Of course with prior permission of all the greats like to RK sir, Deep ji Subhash sir

[4/13, 08:38] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

Quality Control mechanism is there but the quality assurance of rasaushadhies is questionable.

[4/13, 08:46] Dr Harish Canada:

Manufacturing & Sales of Schedule E-1 should be brought under strict law.

Many patent formulations contain even Arsenic compounds in capsules.

Some allopathic doctors do not know what is Samir Panag Ras, dosage etc. Even sales rep of those companies are not having that knowledge.

Makardhwaj products are advertised in news papers.

People are using for years and years.

No caution is given.

🙏

[4/13, 08:52] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

There is no law to punish the people who would sell prescription-only Ayurveda medicines, as per my knowledge.

There should be one. But there is not.

[4/13, 09:22] Dr Harsh Kishore:

एक संशय है कि यदि गुड़ मधुमेह पीड़ित रोगी को दिया गया तो शुगर बढ़ने की संभावना है। क्योंकि गुड़ गन्ने से बनता है और गन्ना ग्लूकोज़ लेवल बढ़ता है। और ऐसा प्रायोगिक रूप में भी देखा गया है कि गुड़ से शुगर लेवल बढ़ गया है। और दूसरा प्रश्न  यह करना चाहता हु की इस चर्चा में गुड़ हरीतकी प्रयोग में जिस गुड़ का प्रयोग बताया है क्या यह नवीन गुड़ है या पुराण गुड़। कृपया इस पर प्रकाश डालें

साभार सधन्यवाद🙏🙏🙏

[4/13, 09:25] Dr Surendra A Soni:

Resp. Sanjay Sir !

Thanks for idea. I usually put all great discussions on kayachikitsa webpage. Many scholars have informed me that they took the print out the discussions and binded it in form of book.

I also imagine a book in Ayurveda like API contributed by different experienced experts. If lord dhanvantari bless we may see such book in future with the efforts of intellectuals like you, honourable gurujan of this group and Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha Sir etc. Ojha Sir has expressed such wish many times here and other platforms.

🙏🙏

[4/13, 10:21] J K Pandey Dr. Lukhnau: 👌

[4/13, 13:12] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir:

Dear dr harsh

Upashay anupashay is the best way of assessment of results along with other parameters subjective and objective both.

I want to send kans haritaki free of cost to you or anybody else who has patients. For upashayatmak decision. Hypothetical discussion is not advised too much .

In prameh chapter more then 90% formulations are having madhu as an active ingredient . madhu  has sugar.

[4/13, 14:04] Sanjay Chhajed Dr. Mumbai:

Wonderful idea, I will contribute on Rasayan. If you get 50-100 vaidya to write. I take the responsibility of publishing it. I no cost to group. I but the profit will be there available devided in all.

**********************************

Above discussion held on 'Kaysampraday" a Famous WhatsApp-discussion-group  of  well known Vaidyas from all over the India. 

Compiled & edited by

Dr.Surendra A. Soni

M.D.,PhD (KC)

Associate Professor

Dept. of Kaya-chikitsa

Govt. Ayurveda College

Vadodara Gujarat, India.

Email: surendraasoni@gmail.com

Mobile No. +91 9408441150