WhatsApp Discussion series:13- Pranayam: A Critical Discussion by Prof. Ranjit Nimbalkar and others

[05/05 8:05 AM] Ranjit Nimbalkar Prof. AP: 

60 yr old male from Gujarat, came to me just with his daughter, who was my pt & was living in Pune after her marriage.

While talking he said, after retirement i hv started pranayama & hv lost 14 kg wt in last 7-8 months & came from 91 to 77 kg.

Magic of pranayama..

I got alarmed & asked him abt his bsl...

He said therr is no possibility of DM in him..though he had nvr checked bsl.

I insisted to check his bsl & he was reluctant.

I counselled his daughter, who finally agreed to check his bsl.

Random came out to b 480 & trace ketone bodies.

He was on the verge of DKA..

Very next day, he went to his home town & started all conventional rx..

After 10+ yrs he expired in last month.

I got phone call from the daughter & she conveyed her father's thanks to me for proper dx & immediate further line of rx.

Just thought to share the experience..

क्वचिद्धर्म क्वचिन्मैत्री.....

Only 3 things r necessary to offer good relief to the pt..

Diagnosis

Diagnosis

Diagnosis...

Gm....🏼🏼

[05/05 8:12 AM] Tapan Vaidya ADI AP:

Sir

I hv observed that Pranayama many a time triggers the latent pathologies to get exposed . Pranayama being व्यंजक निदान.

[05/05 8:12 AM] pawan madan Dr: 

Bilkul sahi baat sir....

100% agreed.

Sahi diagnosis is necessary..

chaahe vah DM, HPT ho yaa Grahni, Gulm yaa vaatarakta ho......

Its the first point.

Thanks for sharing.

[05/05 8:14 AM] Ranjit Nimbalkar Prof. AP: 

I dont know much abt Pranayama...

It may b only coincidence..

But initially Pranayama was getting false credit..

If the person got worsened, then it wd hv bn falsely blamed...

Both the things r wrong...

[05/05 8:14 AM] pawan madan Dr: 

Praanaayam never decreases weight at all.

Its my experience in last ten yrs.

Myth is prevalent due to marketing by Baba ji....

[05/05 8:15 AM] Ranjit Nimbalkar Prof. AP: 

We need to keep our eyes & mind open...

Thats the only msg i learnt from this experience..

[05/05 8:17 AM] Ranjit Nimbalkar Prof. AP: 

कुदृष्टं कुपरिज्ञातं कुश्रुतं कुपरीक्षितम्

तन्नरेण न कर्तव्यं नापितेनात्र यत्कृतम्..

पंचतंत्र..अपरीक्षितकारक..

[05/05 8:19 AM] Ranjit Nimbalkar Prof. AP: 

प्रमा= यथार्थ ज्ञान..

जो जैसा है वो वैसा समझना...

Is what strongly expected...

[05/05 8:21 AM] pawan madan Dr: 🏻🏻🏻

और अपने अधिकार क्षेत्र का पूर्ण एवम उचित प्रयोग से यथार्थ ग्यान को समझना.

🏻

[05/05 8:26 AM] abhay Dr Ay pith: 

Yes Tapanji , I also hv seen Pranayama triggers latent pathologies ..

[05/05 9:18 AM] Mayur Surana Dr. AP: 

@ Ranjit sir what specific nidaan and hetu u found in that DKA pt.?...How come it went symptomless for such a big span?...

[05/05 9:23 AM] Ranjit Nimbalkar Prof. AP:

 I didnt find anything.

I just focussed upon unnatural wt loss, without any aerobic exercise n diet modification.

In view of his previous wt 91 kg, biggest possibility was DM...

Thats it.

No other symptom visible in him...actually accidental finding is a rule for dm & ht..

🏼

[05/05 9:24 AM] Ranjit Nimbalkar Prof. AP: 

I refused the possibility that mere pranayama can reduce sooooo much of wt..

So i considered this wt loss as sign of disease & not health...

[05/05 9:24 AM] Ranjit Nimbalkar Prof. AP: As mentioned in the post, i didnt treat him...

He took all modern rx at his native place..

[05/05 9:26 AM] Ranjit Nimbalkar Prof. AP: 

He didnt come to me as a pt....just with his daughter..

All these things happened coincidently...

So i dont hv much of his details..

[05/05 9:30 AM] Mayur Surana Dr. AP: 

Thanks sir...Great work🏻🏻

[05/05 9:37 AM] Dr Akash Meshram AP: 

Question arises here.....

Does pranayam induces pathogenesis changing hormonal mechanism in the body. Especially pancreas?

[05/05 9:49 AM] Minal Lad Dr. Ay Pth: Yes Dr. Mayur we can...

[05/05 10:01 AM] ‪+91 98501 85095‬: रणजीतजी 

[05/05 10:12 AM] Mayur Surana Dr. AP: 

Ayukta pranaayaam or yam-niyam (sharir manas pathya) aasan virahit (without vyaayaam siddhi) pranayaam which most ppl do can be a dangerous entity ...आ बैल मुझे मार !

[05/05 10:18 AM] ‪+91 94225 92068‬: 

🏼🏼🏼Ranjit sir.

A power of non influenced i.e. rational mind.🏼🏼🏼

[05/05 10:36 AM] Ranjit Nimbalkar Prof. AP: Tx all🏼🏼

[05/05 10:41 AM] Ranjit Nimbalkar Prof. AP: 

Mayur sir..🏼

I dont think that Pranayaam can make anything hazardous..

Any way, i dont hv any knowledge & experience abt it..

Just a guess..

In this pt, i think pathology of dm must hv started long back, even b4 starting pranayama..

It was just a coincidence, that he started pranayaama, exactly in the same time zone when wt loss manifested...

🏼

I

[05/05 10:44 AM] Mayur Surana Dr. AP: 

Dats true sir...I just extended d topic for elaboration dat how pranayaam can heal without siddhi of yam-niyam-aasan?...

[05/05 10:44 AM] Dr Parag kanolkar Ay Pith: 

Pranayam if done in right way... is good, if its done in wrong way its hazardous

[05/05 10:45 AM] Mayur Surana Dr. AP:

 By wrong way it means pranayaam in a wrong way and also before fulfilling d previous 3 requisites

[05/05 10:47 AM] Dr Parag kanolkar Ay Pith: 

Yes.... also these yog sutras where for swathasya swasth rakhanam..  no where in yoga books were recommended to cure diseases

[05/05 10:52 AM] ‪+91 94225 92068‬: 

Though pranayam has it's own benefits but now a days it is very generalised. 

Also the pre conditions for it's application i.e. Yama, niyam & asana abhyas and siddhi is not considered or applied. 

So the precise use of this science or therapy is not happening.

Generalisation in any subject   hampers the authenticity of that particular shastra as a science.

[05/05 10:55 AM] pawan madan Dr: 

True.....

[05/05 11:02 AM] ‪+91 98692 02196‬: 

Sir 

Case taking imp.

What was his routine work, exercise etc

As ayu says

Meha begins

आस्या सुखम स्वप्न सुखम............

Patho physio strts fom even

Manas bhav

[05/05 11:20 AM] ‪+91 94222 52837‬: 

Pranayam - 

As is followed by majority people is forceful inhalation and exhalation. 

This is not at all expected. 

It is just a involuntary movement made voluntary. 

It shoul be with ease.

So majority people develop complications. 

Simple omkar pranayam done in high pitch will disturb the mental peace and the person may become htper reactive. 

Promotion of Pranayam in the right way is important. 

Majority of people follow the wrong way. So iy is advisable if our patients do it. We observe their method and correct if possibke or ask to stop and advice only deep breathing.

That will suffice the cause.

[05/05 11:22 AM] ‪+91 94222 52837‬: 

I don't think their is any major restrictions to follow first yama niyam and then asana pranayam.

Vice versa asana and pranayam increase the stability of mind

[05/05 11:23 AM] ‪+91 94222 52837‬: So as yama and niyam can be followed properly

[05/05 11:26 AM] pawan madan Dr:

 Whatever pranyaam is being followed is for the prvention and treatment of diseases.

But when it is done for aadhyatmika siddhi then only Yama Niyam etc need to be followed in sequence.

[05/05 11:27 AM] Dr Parag kanolkar Ay Pith:

 No pawan sir..

Pranayam must be followed after yama and niyam

[05/05 11:28 AM] Dr Parag kanolkar Ay Pith: 

As u infuses lots of energy in energy body by pranayama.... this may increase negative thought and negative qualities

[05/05 11:31 AM] Mayur Surana Dr. AP: 

Definitely rules are there...d pranayaam post yam-niyam aasan is a real pranayaam...today d so called pranayaam is only breathing exercise...without channelising internal energy d aim of pranayaam cannot be fulfilled...

[05/05 11:33 AM] Mayur Surana Dr. AP:

 Only biased and parametric researches are carried out on pranayaam which may be true either of placebo or increased oxygen capacity of d lungs...nevertheless their long term effects at subtle mind level and also at body levels when seen in conglomeration a true picture can be seen...

[05/05 11:42 AM] pawan madan Dr: 

Definitely rules are there...d pranayaam post yam-niyam aasan is a real pranayaam...today d so called pranayaam is only breathing exercise...without channelising internal energy d aim of pranayaam cannot be fulfilled...

पराग जी..I had the same meaning..

[05/05 11:52 AM] Shriprasad Bavdekar Vd. AP:

 योगसूत्र है 'क्रमान्यत्वं परिणामान्यत्वे हेतु:।' क्रम उचित नहीं होगा तो परिणाम भी यथापेक्ष नहीं होगे

[05/05 12:00 PM] Dipak Shirude Dr. AP: योग  :  एक मुक्तचिंतन

One should go to the basics.

What is the प्रयोजन of पतंजलीकृत योगशास्त्र, just as आयुर्वेदस्य : 

स्वस्थस्य स्वास्थ्य रक्षणम् । 

आतुरस्य विकार प्रशमनं च ।।

There is no reference that योगशास्त्र is meant to retain or achieve health. 

The main motto of योगशास्त्र is to achieve मोक्ष ! 

And the way of मोक्ष goes through चित्तवृत्तिनिरोध: !

There are so many difficulties for साधक to achieve चित्तवृत्तिनिरोध and hence Acharya Patanjali made the 8 rules of योग like यम नियम प्राणायाम प्रत्याहार आसन ध्यान धारणा समाधि (?missing sequence).

After cleansing your body by षडशोधन, one has to find particular place, away from regular disturbing routine, to concentrate on the 8 steps. These 8 steps must be followed in the original sequence to achieve the goal. In this process, nothing deals with achieving health. All the procedures are only to avoid obstacles and promote the साधक forward on the way towards मोक्ष.

But alas, Babaji made it a brand !! And moreover started to sell it !!!

Anyway, still it is not bad !!

He has created a cyclone of Yog and Ayurved all over the world and that too in a very short period. So nothing to criticize but the truth must not remain hidden !!

Vaidya - Deepak Shirude

Jalgaon      9403587879

[05/05 12:12 PM] ‪+91 94225 92068‬: 

To avoid प्रज्ञापराध, a one of the रोगकारण and to get the benefits of आचार रसायन application of यम & नियम is necessary.

[05/05 1:50 PM] Tapan Vaidya ADI AP: 

Yam Niyam to suna hai Ye दम  kya hota hai?

Ch Su 1 me rushio ke liye likha Gaya hai

दमस्य नियमस्य च।

[05/05 2:26 PM] ‪+91 94222 52837‬: 

Yam, Niyam, Asana, Pranayam, Pratyahar

Are bahiranga yoga.

They are to be followed by everyone. 

Yama = Social eticates and manners

Niyam = for Anushthan

ASANA = for sthiratva of Mind.

Pranayam = is purification and concentration of mind.

Pratyahar = release of mind from all bondings.

This my understanding in last 25 yrs.

[05/05 2:29 PM] ‪+91 94222 52837‬:

 Dama = self control, or control over senses. Can be considered equivalent to Yama

[05/05 2:31 PM] ‪+91 94222 52837‬: 

Tapan sir please correct if anything wrong. 

Will be blessed.

[05/05 3:20 PM] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad:

 Its true that yoga is for Moxa, but its not true that there is no ref that yoga is helpful in retain health..

[05/05 3:50 PM] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad:

 Charaka samhita is essence of many treatises..

[05/05 4:49 PM] Dipak Shirude Dr. AP: 

3:25 Reference is not satisfactory. Charakokta Yog and Patanjal Yog are different.

[05/05 5:33 PM] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad: 

Pls see definition of Swastha according to susruta..

Pls see definition of health  according to WHO...

Think about Atma ...

[05/05 5:46 PM] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad: 

If someone follow Yama, niyama of Patanjali yoga, they get benefit of Achaea Rasayana...

What is samadhi in treatment of Manas Roga?

मानसो .........स्मृति समाधीभी...

[05/05 5:46 PM] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad: *achara rasayana

[05/05 5:54 PM] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad: 

This is from hikka chikitsa - su.uttar.50..

Here dalhana has given clarification of pranayam..rechaka, kumbhaka, Puraka..

I think dalhana's kumbhaka, Puraka are not different from patanjali's pranayama..

[05/05 5:55 PM] Tapan Vaidya ADI AP: 

Samadhi

Vo Yogio wali nahi re baba

Pts ke complexes aur shankavish ityadi ka समाधान vo Samadhi hai

Swasth vadi mushkil se yogioki Samadhi prapt hota ho to Manasrogi ke liye to vo akinchitkar hi hai.

Muze to yahi suzata hai

[05/05 6:15 PM] ‪+91 98501 85095‬: 

ranjitjee about your morrning case

  as he was loosing wt. was there DAURBALYA or any vikrutisuchak laxanas 

          or he was enjoying laghav and utsah vrudhi like swasthya suchak laxanani 

      or no any variation

after starting anti diabetic rx his wt was restored   remain stationary   or decrease further      

   91 kg is not normal wt and if it was reducing and developing swasthya suchak laxanani  .. can we consider it is in favour (hitakar) of pt. swasthya . .whatever may be the bsl level ???

[05/05 6:20 PM] ‪+91 98903 12002‬: Its not healthy weight loss...

[05/05 8:17 PM] Katoch sir: Interesting revelation about Pranayam Dr Ranjit. This happens only in India - commonsense is not common.

[05/05 8:25 PM] Ranjit Nimbalkar Prof. AP: 

Manoj sir..🏼🏼

He might be feeling some weakness or fatigue, but may not be to extreme level..

After anti dm rx, all diet control, aerobic exercises might hv come into picture, so his wt might hv bn maintained...but i donno exactly.

The third point is the crux...

If pt is not showing any symptom, but some clinical sign/investigation is showing remarkable abnormality, what shld b our stand in such scenario??

[05/05 8:27 PM] Ranjit Nimbalkar Prof. AP:

 Many HT pts, with bp 150/100 also doesnt show any symptom.

Many malignancies doesnt show any symptom, but in ct scan we see tumor

Many diabetics with high bsl r asymptomatic.

Many IHD pts hv more than 90% blocks, but r asymptomatic..

What should we do in such conditions?

[05/05 8:27 PM] Katoch sir: 

Ayurveda says- Pratikool Vedaniyam Dukham. Doshdushyasammorchhana janito vyadhi.

[05/05 8:28 PM] Ranjit Nimbalkar Prof. AP: Yes Katoch sir...true🏼🏼

[05/05 8:31 PM] Ranjit Nimbalkar Prof. AP: 

One of our sir, suddenly fell down during performing one surgery.

When examined he was found to b ca lung with brain mets.

All rt lung was collapsed with extensive brain mets.

He was totally asymptomatic till that moment.

Though he was a dr himself cdnt experience literally ANY symptom in him...

So r symptoms really helpful? Or we need to depend more on signs & investigations??

[05/05 8:38 PM] Pankaj Chhayani dr ndyad: 

During rest ,shallow  breathing occur..during shallow breathing some amount of air return without gase exchange in area where gase exchange not happen...this area called physiological dead zone..

During deep breath ,more amount of air exchange occur than in shallow breathing, this more amount of air profuse tissue very well...

==============================================

Above discussion held on 'Ayurveda Peetha"(initiated by Prof. S.N. Ojha) a Famous Whatsapp group of  well known Vaidyas from all over the India. 

Compiled & edited by

Dr.Surendra A. Soni

M.D.,PhD (KC)

Associate Professor

Dept. of Kaya-chikitsa

Govt. Ayurveda College

Vadodara Gujarat, India.

EMAIL: surendraasoni@gmail.com

Mobile No. +91 9408441150