WDS 52: Discussion on 'KLOM' by Dr. D.C. Katoch, Dr. Giriraj Sharma, Dr. Janardan Hebber, Dr. Ankur Sharma, Dr. Ram Shukla, Dr. Sidram Guled, Dr. Raghuram Bhatta and others.

[4/9, 12:29 PM] Dr Prasad Kulkarni Nanded:

What is the understanding of organ क्लोम ? In udat chikitsa, there is ref of maruta klomni sansthia? Means what cha chi 13/45

[4/9, 2:34 PM] Vd Pratibha Navani:

This article might be of some help In this kloma is considered to be Mediastinum

http://www.aarogya.com/complementary-medicine/ayurveda/the-organ-kloma.html

[4/9, 2:37 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

Fundamental Principles of ayurveda and their application in the study of Parnbija (Kalanchoe Pinnata)

Introduction

To review Kloma, the controversial organ, the prevalent opinions are to be taken into consideration. So, let us examine the definitions of Kloma which are enumerated here under.

Kloma = Pitta–saya = Gall bladder.

Kloma = Agnya–saya = Pancreas.

Kloma = Yakrit = Liver.

Kloma = Daksina Phupphusa = Right Lung.

The organ kloma should fulfill the following criteria to be labeled as kloma.

Udakavahanam srotasam talu mulam kloma ca/ca.vi 5/10 Udakavaha dve, tayormulam talu kloma ca/su 7/14 Udakavanhinam srotasam talu mulam kloma ca/a.s. sa. 5.

The udakavaha sorts, the various channels which maintain the fluid balance of the body derive their origin from two places – Talu (The hard and soft palates) and kloma. An abnormal vitiated state of these is indicated by: Pradustanamidam vijanam (bhavati), jihvatalvosthakloma sosam pipasam catipravrdsham drstva udakavabanyasya srotamsi pradustani iti vidyat/ca. vi. 5/10. An excessive dryness of the lips, tongue, palate, kloma and an insatiable thirst indicate malfunctioning udaka vaha srotas.

A vidradhi of the kloma is indicated by:

Kloma jayam (Vidradhyam).

Pipasamukhasosagalagrahah/ca.su. 17/29.

Sva so yakridi hikka ca, pipasa.

Klomaje dhika/su.ni. 7/22.

Svaso yakrdi fodhastu.

Philnyucchvasaya trt pundah/galagrahanca klomni syat sarvang pragraho hrdi/a.s. ni.

A disorder characterized by a rapid onset and progress arising from the kloma makes its presence felt by producing the following symptoms:

Marked thirst.

Dryness of mouth.

Choking sensation inthe throat.

Adhvaprasosal srastangahm.

Sambhrstapurusacchavih.

Prasuptagatra vayavah.

Suskaklomagatananah/su.u. 41/21.

A person who has walked for a certain period of time and is now suffering from Adhva sosa exhibits a laxity of the musculature, lethargy, a roasted tanned dry complexion, an impaired tactile perception and a dry kloma, pharynx and mouth.

Kloma is an organ which forms the flank of the Yakrt and the Hrudaya and is situated in the chest. It should surround the heart from all sides, without being attached to it and be mainly on the right side of the chest cavity. This is the gist of the above discussion.

Now if we try and fit one of the previously enumerated hypothesis, each one of them falls short on one or more important aspect. We therefore need to view the issue from a fresh angle in an objective manner.

In modern Anatomy, we find an organ described which fulfills most of the criteria admirably and can safely be termed as Kloma. It is the MEDIASTINUM.

These and many more examples, in the same vein, indicate the control of the fluid balance of the body. Kloma is one of the fifteen Koshthangas described and derives its origin from the mother.

Pancadasa kosthangani tadyatha nabhicsca, hydaynca, kloma ca, yakrcca, ptiha ca, vrkkauca, vastisca, purisadharsca, amasayasca. pakvasayottaragudam dadhragudam ca, ksudrantram ca, sthulantram ca, vapavahanam ceti/ca.sa. 7/10.

Pancadasa kosthangani tadyatha nabhisca, Hrudayam c.a kloma ca… su.sa. 7.

Kosthangani sthitanyesu hrdyam kloma pupphusaml a.hr.sa. 3/12.

It should be related to the heart.

Mamsapesicaya raktapadmakarmadhomukham tasya daksinato kloma yakrcca.

Hrudayasya dalsinato, yakrt kloma ca.

Va, atp phiha pupphusasca. su.sa. 4/39

The Hrudaya is that organ which has on its right upper and lateral side Kloma, right lower lateral side, yakrt on left supero laterally, phupphusa and left infero laterally, pliha.

It should be manifested from the Raktadhatu.

Samanavauh praddmatat vaktat dehosmapacitat.

Kinciducchritarupastu jayate kloma samjntitama/arundatta, vyakhya on A.H.Sa 3/12.

When the fetal rakta is being converted by the fetal jatharagni and this conversion is being aided by the fetal Samana Vayu, the resultant is an organ related to Hrudaya but slightly separated and situated supero–laterally in the Kostha on the right side.

It should have sandhis joints in it kloma nibaddhasu stadasa (Sandhaya) su.sa. 5/29 astadasa kanthanadi nibaddha Hrudayayakrt kloma na disu/A.san.sa kantha hrudaya netra kloma nadisu mandalah sandhayah/su.sa. 5/24.

The organ Kloma should have eighteen Joints of the mandala variety, which are mobile. It should be situated in the Vaksa (Chest, Thorax).

Yakrt brdaya parsvam ca kloma vakasasthitam vididuh/(Hastyayurvedah sa 7/11).

Now we shall briefly consider some abnormalities based on the foregoing hypothesis.

Trt – Thirst is the main indicator of the malfunctioning Udaka vaha srotas of which Kloma is one of the origins.

A progressive fluid loss as a result of either exercise, hyper ventilation, vomit or purging results in loss of fluidity of the circulating Rasa, Udaka and Rakta – the fluid dhatus of the body. The Hrudaya (heart) has to exert more to pump the dense fluid and a natural urge is produced. As a result of overworking of the Hrudaya the fluid in its covering is also depleted and the Hrudaya has to work against resistance offered by the all encompassing, oppressive sac which has turned its foe due to fluid density. This results in a feeling of dryness of the mouth first, throat later, and much later in a considerable thirst which is not quenched easily. It is the common experience of a cool sip which induces a sense of well being.

A diagonally opposite thirst appears as a result of heavy food (guru anna), a heavy substance causes the Ahara Parinamakara Bhara upset requiring more kala (time), kleda (fluids), usna (heat) and unan it would otherwise need. The time can be adjusted by observing fast, but the Kleda or fluid has to be supplemented from outside – in order to render it fluid and absorbable, the cold water taken aggravates the thirst as it helps to put out or douse the usna which in its first place is unable to convert it. Thus the Guru Rasa which is absorbed from the Mahastotas reaches the heart and again it has to work against the resistance of the heavy Rasa and the excess fluid state of the Udaka rasavaha sortas.

The problem could be easily tackled by taking sips of hot water which due to its heat would penetrate the heavy food material and render it more subtle. It is observed at the end of some time, even the residue is dealt with effectively, without causing clogging, water logging and thirst which is aggravated by cold water.

Kloma – Akarsana – Caraka describes the grave disorder arising out of the sudden cardiac involvement which results in, ultimately the collapse of a lung either by external trauma or internal dosik activity.

The median Kloma is critically balanced by the positive pressures exerted by the lungs on it from either sides. The space of the Kloma offers passage to various fluids like Rasa Rakta Udaka to and from the heart along with the incessant rhythmic activity of the heart in its pericardium. Should a lung collapse as result of either trauma in an acute manner, the balance displaces the medistinum along with its contents, e.g. esophagus, trachea, bronchi, and may even cause kinks in the great vessels. If the lung is not inflated and the balance restored, the life of the person could be in jeopardy.

In more chronic cases like Jarakasa and Jalaja Parsvasula the affected lung may succumb slowly causing gradual impairment in the form of lost impaired elasticity and hampering the function of mediastinal organs. A sudden seizure of the heart thus affects the Kloma adversely and causes amongst others, a mediastinal shift which can be fatal.

The Kloma is an organ, due to its anatomical position and its contents which are the esophagus, trachea, heart and vessels. The fluid volume of the body passes through it at one time or the other during the cyclic movement either in the form of Rasa Rakta (Blood) or Udaka (Lymph) and Anna (Bolus). Therefore, any abnormality of these channels results in subsequent impairment, either functional or structural of the Kloma, or conversely, an acute or chronic functional or structural impairment of the Kloma subsequently results in the impaired functioning of either Rasavaha, Pranavaha, Raktavaha, Ydakavaha and Annavaha Srotases.

Abstract

The author discusses in this paper the much debated and controversial organ of Kloma in an objective manner and establishes its relevancy by interpreting various classical texts.

[4/9, 2:38 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

Only Copy pasted above link shared by Vd. Pratibha ji.

[4/9, 2:39 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

Better if sharirvid conclude in summarised way.

[4/9, 2:59 PM] Dr. Anoop Indoria:

The author established a good correlation with literally, anatomically and functionality.

[4/9, 3:20 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

क्लोम

के विषय मे आचार्य एकमत नही है ।

ह्रदय चक्रपाणि आचार्य

पित्ताशय डल्हन आचार्य

फुफ्फुस , उन्डुक गंगाधर जी

कंठनाड़ी श्वासः नाडी गणनाथ सेन जी

आकृति तिल जैसी

क्लोम विकृति पिपासा लक्षण

सन्धि मंडल

स्थान ह्दय के दक्षिण में

जहां भी क्लोम का वर्णन आचार्य ने किया है तो फुफ्फुस का वर्णन नही किया ,

जहां फुफ्फुस का वर्णन हुआ है वहां क्लोम का उल्लेख नही हुआ है ।

[4/9, 3:25 PM] Dr. Anoop Indoria:

Then author tried to develop new approach as mediastinum and also established literally, anatomically and functionally.

[4/9, 3:27 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

Just small efforts from these inputs sir

[4/9, 3:30 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

let note 'Til' shape.... like Thymus

[4/9, 3:39 PM] Dr. Anoop Indoria:

But thymus gland disappears at the age of 14.

[4/9, 3:40 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

[4/9, 3:41 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

Yes it is prominent in childhood

But shape site as mentioned match to it.

[4/9, 3:42 PM] shekhar singh MP:

क्या क्लोम को सन्दर्भ के अनुसार उक्त सभी को स्वीकार नहीं किया जा सकता ??

[4/9, 3:45 PM] Dr. Anoop Indoria:

Yes. But whole life without Klom ?

[4/9, 3:45 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

Here hraday is heart or brain???

if brain then hypothalamus (thirst centre.)

[4/9, 3:45 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

अंग प्रत्यंग निर्माण

कोष्टांग

स्रोतसाम

इनमे इनके साथ वर्णित है ।

एक फुफ्फुस को छोड़कर

[4/9, 3:48 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

पिपासा विकृति जन्य लक्षण है क्लोम का

ब्रेन हाइपोथेलेमस का ,फंक्शन

[4/9, 3:49 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

पिपासा बहुत से रोगों में लक्षण मिलता है ।

[4/9, 4:45 PM] pawan madan Dr:

*Kloma is a comman name of different organs performing some similar functions.*

Similar like Dhatu and Dosha.

And will give more details at night.

[4/9, 8:38 PM] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

सिद्धांततः शरीर में एक ही क्लोम है जिसे हम मन्दबुद्धि विभिन्न कोष्ठागों के रूप में स्वीकारते हैं ।

[4/9, 8:41 PM] Dr. D C Katoch sir: Kloma:

Hydration receptors

[4/9, 8:46 PM] Dr Harish Canada:

Interesting !!!!

[4/9, 10:12 PM] Shridutta Trivedi Dr:

"Udakvahanam srotasam talu moolam klom cha"

Yaha pe udakvahi srotas ka utpadak mool talu he aur pravartak mool klom he.. yani udak utapan talu me hota he aur udak ka pravartan klom karta he..

Aur pranvah-udakvah-annavah srotas ye kost ko belong karte he.. yani kost ki sapeksha me udak ka pravatan jin jin se ho voh klom kaha jayega..!

[4/9, 10:14 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

द्वे त्योर्मुलम

दोनो मूल है

[4/9, 10:15 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

क्लोम एक प्रत्यंग है

[4/9, 10:17 PM] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

Intravascular and extravascular fluid compartments.

[4/9, 10:18 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

तिल आकृति

सन्धि में वर्णित

मंडल सन्धि

[4/9, 10:22 PM] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

Dry palate shows granular swellings looking like Til

[4/9, 10:23 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

*[4/9, 10:15 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma: क्लोम एक प्रत्यंग है

[4/9, 10:17 PM] Dr. D C Katoch sir: *Intravascular and extravascular fluid compartments.*

[4/9, 10:20 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma: सन्धि में वर्णित

मंडल सन्धि*

This seems correct ( *in bold words*) stated by katoch Sir.

[4/9, 10:23 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

मुलातखदान्तर देहे

adjoining space between and within cells

प्रसृत देह

widely Distribute in whole body

त्वभिवाहियत

Transfer the fluid

स्रोतसाम की परिभाषा है

[4/9, 10:27 PM] Dr. D C Katoch sir: Intracellular and extracellular fluid as well.

[4/9, 10:28 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

an adjoining space between and within the cells, which widely Distribute in whole body and transfer and transformation the substance .

ये तो सभी स्रोतः के परिपेक्ष्य में होगा

[4/9, 10:29 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

आचार्य श्री गिरिराज जी ।

[4/9, 10:30 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

Now Differentiate the srotas as par organs.

[4/9, 10:31 PM] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

Organ may be the mool of srotas but not srotas itself.

[4/9, 10:31 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma: Srotas is group of organ

[4/9, 10:33 PM] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

Nahin Bhai nahin, yeh manya nahin.

[4/9, 10:34 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

As per Modern /ayurved

cell/ Murt Bhav

tissue/ AVYAVA

organ/ Anga pratng

system / Srotas

body /sharir

[4/9, 10:35 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

Origination may be from organs.

Right Sir !

[4/9, 10:35 PM] Dr. D C Katoch sir: Srotas is Akashiye bhav.

[4/9, 10:35 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

बताइये सर

[4/9, 10:36 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

[4/9, 10:37 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

मुलातखदान्तर

आकाशीय भाव ही है

This definition as per Histological aspect

सिराधमनी विवर्जितम

Siraa and dhamni also these quality...

but the can't TRANSFORMATION.

Aacharya Charak said

स्त्रणात स्त्रोतानसी

secretion

Transformation

सिरा विकारा हि धमनी स्त्रोतानसी सु शा 9

[4/9, 10:45 PM] pawan madan Dr:

REQUEST FOR REVIEW BY THE SUDHIJANA ABOUT THE KLOMA ----- 1

CHARAK SUTRA 17/94 - Gambhir granthi can also occur in Kloma.....When there is granthi in kloma....There occur pipaasaa, mukhshosha, galagrah...

SROTOVIMAANA 5......kloma dushti with other symptoms indicate dushti of udakavaha srotas..

Here chakrapaani says....kloma hridyastha pipaasa sthaanama.......hridya ia refered to heart as well as brain at various places in texts

SHARIR 4......kloma maatrija bhaav janaya organ hai..

SHARIR 7......chakrapaani says kloma pipaasa sthaanum.....this means...kloma is an entity which controls thirs – by being the receptors at various places in the body as said by katoch sir ji

DUSHTI OF KLOM IN UDAR ROGA......whats its utility……its dushti causes an imbalance in the fluid metabolism….so kloma is something which regulates water metabolism

DUSHTI OF KLOMA IN HIKKA KAASA SHWAAS chapter in causation of kshudra hikka..........does it mean thirst centre in brain...???

There is dooshana of kloma in the generation of TRISHNAA ROGA IN CH 22....

Here chakrapaani says..... Klomnaa iti dvityiaa bahuvachanaantam.....What dies this mean….Klomanaa word here has been used as Bahuvachan showing its more than one type…..

IN SIDHI STHAANA 8.....hridya abhighaata se hone waale rogo me klomapakarshan kahaa gyaa hai......chakrapaani iska artha kloma apakarshana like discomfort karte hain....

...Ashtaanga hridya sutra 12 - Kloma kapha ka STHAAN hai.

Hemaadri says.... Kloma is udakvaahi srotomool

Ashtang hridy Sharir 3....vaghbhatt counts kloma as koshthaang and arundatta says it is present in right side along with yakrit and phupphus

In Raajyakshmaa there is sanshoshana of Klom???

Kloma is a place where vidradhi, vridhi and Gulma can occur....chapter 3 nidaana STHAAN

Its surely a koshthaang. Is it only one organ?

CONCLUSION ----

*Kloma is an organ, microscopic or macroscopic present at various different places in the body performing at least on similar function of controlling or regulating or effecting water fluid metabolism*.

[4/9, 10:50 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

Excellent Pawan Sir !!

[4/9, 10:52 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

सर यह अंग है प्रत्यंग है या कोष्ठआँग

Every oragan has microscopic and Macroscopic structure....

[4/9, 10:56 PM] pawan madan Dr:

Ji aap kuch bhi kah lijiye.....its a group of entities performimg similar functions.....it can be an Anga at one plce like trachea or Pratynga at another place like glands or anything else.........doesnt matter...more imp is its physiological action...

[4/9, 10:56 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

water fluid metabolism

supra reanl gland

[4/9, 10:56 PM] pawan madan Dr:

Aaap meri baat nahi samjhe shaayad......pls read again....

[4/9, 10:57 PM] pawan madan Dr:

[4/9, 11:01 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

The cortex of supra renal gland composed three zone

1 outer zone - Zona Glomerulosa which produces mineralocorticoid that affected electrolytic and Water balance of the body .

The location of the suprarenal gland

the shape

इन सब के आधार पर Supra reanl gland क्लोम हो ज्ञे

[4/9, 11:04 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

should we not accept that there is no clarity in identification of klom as per current modern criteria or we ayurved people unable to interpret it, because there is always a difference of opinions in context to klom.

That's why many experts states it functional anatomy term.

When I was BAMS First year student, I attended a Seminar at lucknow organised by shatir legend great Dr D G Thatte Sir. Where whole 1 session was dedicated to klom and they concluded that Gall Bladder is Classical klom in presence of all sharirvid.

[4/9, 11:11 PM] yatinder sharma Dr:

But sir in charak

उदकवहानां स्रोतसां तालुमूलं क्लोम च

In viman sthana chap 5 shloka 8...

[4/9, 11:13 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

Right but what is klom ? This is the question here.

[4/9, 11:14 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

एक बार supra renal gland को क्लोम समझ कर देखते है ।

शायद एक अंग और क्लोम से जुड़ जाए

[4/9, 11:16 PM] yatinder sharma Dr:

And also क्लोमजायां पिपासामुखशोषगलग्रहाः sutra sthana chap 17 shloka 101...

Doesn't it means that kloma is talu moola....???

[4/9, 11:18 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

तालु

तालवस्थि

क्लोम

तालुमुल,,,,,

[4/9, 11:18 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni: 1-2 4 और उत्कृष्ट शारीरविद के नाम दीजिये उन्हें सम्मिलित करते हैं जो अपनी अभिव्यक्ति निसंकोच देते हो ।

आपके सुझाव पर मैं मान भी जाऊं इससे विज्ञान की तरह सार्वभौमिक स्वीकार्यता का भाव आना सम्भव प्रतीत नहीं होता ।

गिरिराज सर !

[4/9, 11:19 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni: T

hen what does happen in jalodar...??

[4/9, 11:21 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

But sir in charak

उदकवहानां स्रोतसां तालुमूलं क्लोम च

In viman sthana chap 5 shloka 8...

Your previous statement.....Dr Yatinder !

[4/9, 11:21 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

मानने मनाने में मैं विश्वास नही रखता ।

मेरा सिर्फ निवेदन है कि

A Clinical study of CLOM in reference of Suprarenal galnd ....

की दृष्टि से देखे

अगर यह असत्य है तो भी तो रिसर्च ही है ।

[4/9, 11:22 PM] yatinder sharma Dr:

I think to understand kloma we should also take in consideration the mechanism or thirst in human body....

[4/9, 11:24 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

सर

तृष्ना क्लोम का विद्व लक्षण है

दुष्टि लक्षण है ।

जो आप कह रहे है वो फंक्शन है

[4/9, 11:24 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

Good idea !!

Any thesis work on klom in any Dept....??

I don't know...

Please share if anyone knows.

[4/9, 11:24 PM] yatinder sharma Dr:

[4/9, 11:25 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

[4/9, 11:30 PM] pawan madan Dr:

*When suprarenal gland is helping in water regulation ......it will be considered as one type of Kloma.......not a problem....*

[4/9, 11:30 PM] yatinder sharma Dr:

As it says तालुमुलं क्लोमं च

Means it is situated at the moola of talu.... there is an organ named subfornical organ which is responsible for fluid balance orosmoregulation in our body may be kloma can be compared to that.

[4/9, 11:31 PM] pawan madan Dr:

Any one single organ doesnt satisfy all the functions of kloma described in texts....

[4/9, 11:32 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

[4/9, 11:32 PM] pawan madan Dr:

This concept is same as...

srotas

siraa

dhamani...etc

[4/9, 11:33 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

Identification of ojas is also similar one.

[4/9, 11:34 PM] pawan madan Dr:

100% true.....

Even

Rasa Dhatu

[4/9, 11:35 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

It clear up to certain extent.

[4/9, 11:35 PM] pawan madan Dr:

Yes...but upto certain extent....

[4/9, 11:40 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

ह्दय

तस्य अधो वामत प्लीहा फुफ्फुस

दक्षिणतो यकृत क्लोम च

ह्दय के नीचे

यकृत के साथ

[4/9, 11:42 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

Same logic was applied by Thatte Sir and other sharirvid.

[4/9, 11:42 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

यह सिर्फ एक कोष्ठ अंग है ।

इसे ओज के समकक्ष ना रखे ।

[4/9, 11:44 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

No question.

I stated about the seminar where GB was established as klom.

[4/9, 11:44 PM] priy ranjan tiwari Dr. : ✔

[4/9, 11:46 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

क्लोम को क्लोम रहने दीजिए

आएगा कोई हमसे बेहतर

[4/9, 11:47 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

Good night Acharya ji !

[4/9, 11:49 PM] pawan madan Dr:

Sir....is tarah ke aur bhi ref hain....maine post me bataaue hain....

यह औज को अन्ग नहि बताया गया...

सिर्फ समझने के लिये उपमा दी गयी है

[4/9, 11:50 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

दक्षिणतो यकृत प्लीहा

As per relation of liver ,,,,

The right supra reanl gland apex releted to the bare area of liver.....

[4/9, 11:51 PM] yatinder sharma Dr:

तस्य दक्षिणतः क्लोम यकृत्फुप्फुसमास्थितम्॥ समानवायुप्रध्माताद्रक्ताद्देहोष्मपाचितात्। किञ्चिदुच्छ्रितरूपस्तु जायते क्लोमसंज्ञकः॥

[4/9, 11:51 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma: जी सर

[4/9, 11:51 PM] priy ranjan tiwari Dr.:

suprarenal gland will be included in udakvahsrotas

[4/9, 11:52 PM] pawan madan Dr:

Okk

How will u establish supra renal gland as Kloma hridyastha pipaasaa sthaanam????

[4/9, 11:52 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

नही सर

अपनी बात कह रहा हूँ तर्क सहित

थोप नही रहा

[4/9, 11:54 PM] pawan madan Dr:

जी मै आपका वोही तर्क समझने का प्रय्त्न कर रहा हू...

[4/9, 11:54 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

रचनात्मक ही हूँ

मुझे नॉन क्लीनिकल कहा जाता है ।

आपसे अपेक्षा है

[4/9, 11:55 PM] pawan madan Dr:

[4/9, 11:55 PM] yatinder sharma Dr:

Suprarenal glands along with subfornical organ controls osmoregulation via angiotensin....

[4/9, 11:56 PM] pawan madan Dr:

How does this establish the place of kloma in hridya?

[4/9, 11:58 PM] yatinder sharma Dr:

Not in hridaya sir but supra renal glands....

[4/9, 11:58 PM] yatinder sharma Dr:

[4/9, 11:59 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

सर यह रेफेरेंस कहां का है

[4/10, 12:00 AM] pawan madan Dr:

Sharir 7 charak.....Chakrapaani teekaa....

[4/10, 12:01 AM] pawan madan Dr:

Please refer to my first post...

[4/10, 12:03 AM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

[4/10, 12:22 AM] priy ranjan tiwari Dr.:

cholecystectomy klom removal and what's pittasaya

[4/10, 12:37 AM] Kapil kapoor:

Shabdakalpadruma says it's different location

क्लोम, [न्] क्ली, (क्लुङ् गतौ + मनिन् ।)

फुप्फुसम् । फोँफडा इति फुलघरा इति चख्यातम् । इति भरतः ॥ तत्पर्य्यायः । तिलकम् २ ।इत्यमरः ॥ २ । ६ । ६५ ॥ क्लोमम् ३ कोमम् ४ ।इति तट्टीका ॥

*“बाह्वोर्द्वयोर्मध्ये वक्षः तन्मध्ये हृदयं तत्पार्श्वेक्लोम पिपासास्थानम्” । इति वैद्यकम् ॥*

(“उदकवहे द्वे तयोर्मूलं तालु क्लोम च” ॥इति सुश्रुते शारीरस्थाने नवमाध्यायः ॥)

[4/10, 12:50 AM] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi:

*I do agree & take it as संदिग्ध *

[4/10, 6:07 AM] Dr. Venkat Joshi UK:

तिलाकृति... पिपासा स्थान...

How can we miss big organ? Pancreas

Agni ashaya?

In Ayurveda usually functional anatomy apply...

Hence related to that water and electrolyte imbalances are attributed to kloma

Hridaya has dual sense. of or seats....Not just hypothalamus or any organ here

It's chetana sthana or whole activity

Now the main activity is from physiological heart

But brain activity is its representation

Mirror images

Like Sun activity is main

But next main for life is Moon activity

The source is

heart but functions are in brain

Same energy is dual

Hot and cool

Imbalance fire burns so also ice

[4/10, 6:24 AM] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

मेरा अभिप्राय है कि क्लोम शरीर की द्रव धातु का integrated functional framework या system है नाकि अकेला एक organ.

[4/10, 6:31 AM] Dr Divyesh Desai:

Sir I have no clearly reference but during my students life (1992) Klom had compared with Pancreas and I also believed same and when our pancreatic function disturbed our fluid or Udak may be Imbalance and we understand Anatomy and Physiology of Pancreas so we get clues about Klom. Request to all Gurujan & Senior its my opinion without reference but one of them genius from you will prove and agree with my opinion & also give some reference.

[4/10, 6:38 AM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

परस्पर निबद्वानि सर्वांयेतानि

नाभि प्लीहा यकृत क्लोम ह्दय वृक्कों गुद बस्तय ।

कोष्ठ अंगानि वदन्ति

कश्यप

सभी एक एक दूसरे से जुड़े हुए है बंधे हुए है ।

क्लोम भी अन्य कोष्ठ अंगों की तरह एक कोष्टांग है ।

[4/10, 6:44 AM] Dr. D C Katoch sir: Agreed

[4/10, 6:48 AM] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

But Kloma has two context specific meanings-one as organ, which does not justify in totality the functions attributed to it and second as a functional entity, which does not specify its single anatomical location.

[4/10, 6:53 AM] Dr Divyesh Desai:

Yes sir but Klom as a organ compare with Pancreas ?

[4/10, 7:51 AM] pawan madan Dr:

Can be called pancreas -- if pancreas satisfies the functions of Kloma.

[4/10, 8:02 AM] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

Ayurveda does not give much importance to name but to function/activity/property ( गुण कर्म)।

[4/10, 8:31 AM] pawan madan Dr: true fact...

[4/13, 9:40 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

Yesterday and day before yesterday discussion on

Klom word was very hot topic.

I told that time klom is located at mediastinum.

According to input given by sir. Til shape etc.

Today while reading charak samihita siddhisthaan

Chapter 9 slok 6

again i get an evidence that klom is located in thoracic cavity not in abdominal as some people were considering.

[4/13, 9:41 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

PLease correct me

If i m wrong

[4/13, 10:13 PM] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

उसी श्लोक में हृदयाभिघात के अन्य लक्षण उन्माद, अपस्मार, प्रलाप, तालुशोष इत्यादि भी हैं तो हमें क्या यह समझना चाहिए कि सम्बन्धित सभी अंग या अवयव mediastinum में हैं ।

या thoracic cavity में हैं ।

[4/13, 10:32 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

Apsamar unmaad can be due to redued blood supply to brain

Delirium ,etc

In each marm injury

Symptoms are due to affected main organ

[4/13, 10:33 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

क्लोम अपकर्षण

से तातपर्य हुआ कि क्लोम अपनी जगह से हटता है उर्ध्व अध तिर्यग इस पर कुछ जानकारी नही ।

क्लोम अपकर्षण

वक्ष कोष्ठ के अंग ही नही उदर स्तिथ अंगो का भी अपकर्षण होता है ।

उदाहरण

gallbladder डायफ्राम (लिवर लिगामेंट्स अटेचमेंट) के कारण अपकर्षित होता है ।

gallstone

murphy sign

इसका उदाहरण है ।

अतः अपकर्षित होने मात्र से उर प्रदेश में ऐसा कहना न्यायोचित होगा क्या ?

[4/13, 10:34 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

Cerebral

Ischemia

Cause

Tia, delirium , seizures

Etc

[4/13, 10:35 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

अगर ऐसा है तो gallbladder इसका बेहतरीन उदाहरण होगा ।

सुपरा रीनल ग्लैड कहने पर तो आप ,,,, सब मानेंगे नही

[4/13, 10:43 PM] Dr Sidram Guled:

Kloma is a udakavaha srotomula no confusion in this as accepted by all acharya

mula is nothing but prabhava sthana where udaka gamana is more observed..

[4/13, 10:48 PM] pawan madan Dr: absolutely not

[4/13, 10:53 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

supra reanl gland

attached with diaphragmatic fascia

bare area of liver

दक्षिण यकृत क्लोम

ह्दय के नीचे

Pyramidal shape

तिल आकृति

[4/13, 10:56 PM] Dr Sidram Guled:

2/3 of water is intracellular but it is wide spread we cannot consider it as mula

1/3 is extracellular, most of it is (4/5) is in interstitial compartment so it is also widespread so cannot consider mula

Lastly 1/5 of extracellular is in vascular, 20 percent in blood, and 80percent is carried to heart by lymphatic through rt n lt thorasic ducts n thymus..which are situated n connected to heart...

Arunadutta clearly says it is situated rt to heart

Lymphatic system is important system of fluid balance regulation..

As for my knowledge is concerned udakavaha srotas mainly includes lymphatic system n kloma to ducts, thymus...

[4/13, 10:56 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma: पिपासा

[4/13, 11:00 PM] pawan madan Dr:

Whatsoever one may find ---- A single organ cant be responsible for all functions of Kloma and and cant satisfy all sandarbhas given for Kloma in various texts. So lets please move on to another topic please.

[4/13, 11:03 PM] Dr Sidram Guled:

Regarding vagbhata kostanga sloka,

Arunadatta says puppusa, yakrita and kloma are situated rt to heart, while saying kapha sthana kloma meaning told by arunadatta is it is situated rt to heart...

So place of kloma is in uras that to rt to heart...

So kloma sthana in udara, nowhere it is mentioned...

Another interesting thing told by arunadatta is, kloma becomes bit uchrita enlarged by samanavata dusti, ushma(increased temp) and rakta paka, clue here is infection or rakta vidaha cause lymph glands enlarge in size so also other organs related with lymphatics...

[4/13, 11:08 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

आचार्य सुश्रुत ने क्लोम की स्तिथि

ह्दय के अध दक्षिण में यकृत के साथ बताई है

[4/13, 11:10 PM] Dr Sidram Guled: Can u post ref sir ?

[4/13, 11:11 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

शोणित कफप्रसादजम ह्रदय ,,,,

तस्याधो ,,,, दक्षिणतो यकृत क्लोम च । सु शा 4/31

[4/13, 11:12 PM] Dr Sidram Guled:

We have to read it by chheda sir

Breaks

[4/13, 11:12 PM] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

Thank you very much sir.any other reference of Sushrut?

[4/13, 11:14 PM] Dr Sidram Guled:

Hriday asraya pranavaha dhamani,

[4/13, 11:14 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

Logic

Klom is lungs nothing else

1. During cardiac trauma, any pericardial haemrrhage will displace lungs first due to pressure effects.

Abdominal cavity is seperated from thoracic cavity through muscular diaphragm.

2. Water is lost through Lungs ,skin and kidney

For osmoregulation

Both lungs are kidney are interrelated

Kidney is dependent upon lungs angiotensin hormone formation.

3. What other name is mentioned in ayurvedic text for lungs???

klom is word most suitable for lungs

Which are close to heart, til shape and have great role in assessing water volume & its homeostasis in body.

In ancient time klom.word were used to dictate lungs

Explanation

Water is lost in the lungs all through breathing and this increases in fevers. ... Yes, mainly from the skin and lungs, the body keeps the lungs moist to absorb oxygen from the air, every time you breath out you exhale someevaporated moisture

lungs have a number of other functions. They are involved in maintaining homeostasis, helping in the regulation of blood pressure as part of the renin–angiotensin system. The inner lining of the blood vessels secretes angiotensin-converting enzyme (ACE) an enzyme that catalyses the conversion of angiotensin I to angiotensin II.[49] The lungs are involved in the blood's acid-base homeostasis by expelling carbon dioxidewhen breathing

Hormones antidiuretic hormone, aldosterone and angiotensin II are used in the body to help to increase the permeability of thecollecting ducts found in the kidney.

[4/13, 11:14 PM] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

Thank you sir. Any other reference from Sushrut samhita?

[4/13, 11:15 PM] pawan madan Dr:

सु. नि. ९ / १८

सु. नि. ९ / २२

सु. शा. ४ / ३१

सु. शा. ५ / २६

सु. शा. ५ / २७

सु. शा. ९ / १२

सु. उ. ३९ / १८४

सु. उ. ४१ / २१

[4/13, 11:15 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

शारीरे सुश्रुत श्रेष्ठ

इससे बेहतर मेरे लिए कुछ नही ।

[4/13, 11:17 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

Sir u have already mentioned

Right phupus on side of liver

And on left side alongwith spleen there is left phuphus (klom)

Klom word is nothing except lungs.

[4/13, 11:18 PM] pawan madan Dr:

Please satisfy only one sandarbha abut kloma....Hridyastha pipaasaa sthaanam....if Kloma is lungs ?

[4/13, 11:18 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

हां वो बात दूसरी है किसी बड़े नामिख्यात शरीरविज्ञ ने supra reanl gland के बारे में सोचा ही नही ,,,,,

ओर सत्य के लिए बड़ा पद औऱ बहुमत चाहिये

[4/13, 11:19 PM] pawan madan Dr:

Sir request for ....... reviwing all the Sushrut references ..... and then lets make the conclusion.....

[4/13, 11:20 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

Yes pippasa sthanum

While doing exercise

Lungs evaporate moisture and

Thirst sensation raises in throat

Due to lack of moisture often dry cough occur.

Lungs have great role in osmoregulation through angiotensin hormone regulation.

[4/13, 11:21 PM] Prof. KSR Prasad Tachnoayurveda:

Kloma is left lung and the puppusa is used for right

[4/13, 11:22 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

Plz ,,,,read the physiologcal relation of Suprarenal galnd and lungs function

[4/13, 11:22 PM] Prof. KSR Prasad Tachnoayurveda:

Sorry vice versa right kloma and left puppusa

[4/13, 11:22 PM] pawan madan Dr:

but in this way pipaasa is generated by many other organs in the body ----

[4/13, 11:25 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

[09/04 15:20] GIRIRAJ G SHARMA:

क्लोम

के विषय मे आचार्य एकमत नही है ।

ह्रदय चक्रपाणि आचार्य

पित्ताशय डल्हन आचार्य

फुफ्फुस , उन्डुक गंगाधर जी

कंठनाड़ी श्वासः नाडी गणनाथ सेन जी

आकृति तिल जैसी

क्लोम विकृति पिपासा लक्षण

सन्धि मंडल

स्थान ह्दय के दक्षिण में

जहां भी क्लोम का वर्णन आचार्य ने किया है तो फुफ्फुस का वर्णन नही किया ,

जहां फुफ्फुस का वर्णन हुआ है वहां क्लोम का उल्लेख नही हुआ है ।

[09/04 15:45] GIRIRAJ G SHARMA:

अंग प्रत्यंग निर्माण

कोष्टांग

स्रोतसाम

इनमे इनके साथ वर्णित है ।

एक फुफ्फुस को छोड़कर

[4/13, 11:28 PM] Dr Sidram Guled:

Vagbhata mentioned kloma n puppusa separately in kostangas

[4/13, 11:30 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

कहीँ भी आचार्य सुश्रुत ने फुफ्फुस और क्लोम का वर्णन एक साथ नही किया ।

स्रोतसाम मूल की बात हुई तो फुफ्फुस जैसे बड़े अंग का वर्णन नही किया ।

कोष्ठआँग की बात हुई तो क्लोम का और फुफ्फुस वर्णन साथ नही किया ।

दक्षिण फुफ्फुस को क्लोम कहने में मेरी सहमति है ।

[4/13, 11:32 PM] pawan madan Dr:

Then .....does this show that Sushrut points that....Klome is

the lungs...

[4/13, 11:32 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

और जब फुफ्फुस नही सबके मत भिन्न है तो आकृति , स्थान, विकृति लक्षण के अनुरूप Suprarenal को भी अन्य अंग की तरह माने ऐसा मेरा मत है ।

[4/13, 11:35 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

क्लोम (gill) या गलफड़ा जलीय जीवों में पाया जाने वाला एक श्वसन अंग है। इसका प्रयोग कर जलचर पानी से ऑक्सीजन ग्रहण करते हैं और कार्बन डाइऑक्साइड का त्याग करते हैं। गलफड़े की सूक्ष्म संरचना बाहरी वातावरण के लिए एक बहुत बड़ा तल क्षेत्र प्रस्तुत करती है।

[4/13, 11:35 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

गंगाधर जी ने फुफ्फुस को प्रथमतः क्लोम कहा था ।

[4/13, 11:35 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

In ancient era human is derived through fish

Matsya avtar

In matsya

Lungs are described as klom

[4/13, 11:36 PM] Dr Sidram Guled:

Kloma word more used when they mentioned dryness..

Like jihwa talu osta kanta kloma sosha..how to feel dryness of renal gland? Sir

[4/13, 11:37 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

Correct

Only through oeasphagus palate and lungs we feel thirst sensation

[4/13, 11:37 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

[4/13, 11:38 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

फिर तो कूर्म , वाराह , नरसिंह वामन सब के अनुसार मनन करना चाहिए

[4/13, 11:40 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

In ancient time klom word were be used mostly

And its name may get changed

But initial concepts remain same.

[4/13, 11:42 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

On cardiac injury

Lungs get collapsed first

And it is mentioned in charak clearly

On hrday aaghat

[4/13, 11:44 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

How we ignore evolution

Concepts so easily ???

[4/13, 11:46 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

सर

अगर सुश्रुत शारीरम के रेफेरेंस से देखे तो क्लोम को ह्रदय के अध दक्षिण में बताया है ।

फुफ्फुस को ह्रदय के अध ही वाम में प्लीहा से साथ बताया है ,,,,,

ह्रदय के अधो से हमे vertically न लेकर Anterior posterior लेना चाहिए ।

क्योकि सोते हुए व्यक्ति के दोनों lungs अध ही होते है ।

[4/13, 11:47 PM] Dr Sidram Guled:

Kloma apakarshanavat vedana, i feel its retrosternal peculiar pain in angina n MI

[4/13, 11:47 PM] priy ranjan tiwari Dr.:

kuch din baad klom kahin pakvasaya se na tulna kar di jaye.......

[4/13, 11:47 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

सर् 100 प्रतिशत मेरा ऐसा ही मानना है ये अवतार नही

मनुष्य जाति की डेवलपमेंट थ्योरी है ।

[4/13, 11:48 PM] priy rnjan tiwari Dr. j: ✔✔

[4/13, 11:49 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

जब सब लोग गॉलब्लेडर, पित्ताशय, ब्रेन बता रहे है तो एक ओर मेरी तरफ से जोड़ देने में क्या हर्ज है

[4/13, 11:49 PM] priy rnjan tiwari Dr. j: ✔✔

[4/13, 11:49 PM] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

Thank you very much sir.

[4/13, 11:50 PM] priy ranjan tiwari Dr.:

aaj dr ankur ji decide karke hi manenge

[4/13, 11:51 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

i m just trying to understand

[4/13, 11:51 PM] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

I am also agree with Prasaad sir and dr Ankur. Klome as per achaarya Sushrut is right lung.

[4/13, 11:52 PM] priy ranjan tiwari Dr.: I think its pleural fluid

[4/13, 11:52 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

मैं दक्षिण फुफ्फुस को क्लोम गंगाधर जी के वक्तव्य पर सहमत हूँ था मेरी पहली पोस्ट में भी

पर विद्वजन जब अपने अपने वक्तव्य दे रहे है जिस तथ्य से उन्ही तथ्यों से Suprarenal galnd भी उन सब अंगों के समकक्ष ही है ।

[4/13, 11:55 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

Klom is synonym of phuphus

Here in ayurveda many times synonym were used.

[4/13, 11:56 PM] priy ranjan tiwari Dr.:

not phuphus but it may be pleural fluid

[4/13, 11:57 PM] Dr Sidram Guled:

Everyone accepted that kloma is pipasa sthana...means we feel thirst through these sites like talu, jihwa gala like dat kloma so considering kloma further trachea is not rt because we cant feel trishna in it.

[4/13, 11:58 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

If we consider it pleural fluid then

It is only fluid

It is not a organ which regulate water equilibrium

[4/13, 11:58 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

आचार्य सुश्रुत ने वाम फुफ्फुस को फुफ्फुस कहा ।

दक्षिण फुफ्फुस को क्लोम कहा

दोनो क्लोम और फुफ्फुस एक साथ वर्णन नही मिलता ।

फुफ्फुस कहीं भी द्विवचन के रूप में प्रयुक्त नही हुआ जैसे वृक्क को वृक्कों कहा है ।

[4/13, 11:58 PM] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

Great analysis by Ankur sir

[4/13, 11:59 PM] Dr Sidram Guled:

Vagbhata told kloma n puppusa separately in kostanga

[4/14, 12:00 AM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

How do one know from.where one is getting thirst sensation

As nerve innervate from not only one site but also cover others too

As in.autonomic nervous system vagus nerve innervate heart lungs stomach palate etc ....

[4/14, 12:00 AM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

वाग्भट्ट आचार्य ने आचार्य चरक सुश्रुत की संहिता को पुनः एक साथ विमर्श किया है ।

उनका मौलिक अवदान बहुत कम है ।

[4/14, 12:01 AM] priy ranjan tiwari Dr.:

klom = like gills =galaphade

Jo hamare shareer me galphade hain wahi klom hai dr ankur pata kijiye which organ is galphade in human being

it may be pharyngeal pouch

[4/14, 12:05 AM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

Yes

It is describing whole story

Trachea lungs pharynx palate have very close relation according to embryology

Derived from same tissue

[4/14, 12:07 AM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

Pharyngeal pouch से तो बहुत से organ इसमे आ जाएँगे ।

सिर्फ फुफ्फुस तक ही सीमित रखे ।

[4/14, 12:07 AM] priy ranjan tiwari Dr.:

pharyngeal arch =branchial arch

[4/14, 12:09 AM] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

Once we become confirm about ayurvedic anatomy, it will give many informations which are till unexplored by modern science. Perhaps there is some hidden triggering factor in right lung which initiate trushna.

[4/14, 12:09 AM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

Do not anybody feel dryness in lungs during overextertion???

After vigorous exercise one feel dryness in lungs and repeatedly dry cough occur.

Let run then feel it one will recognize

Pippasa sthaan which are missed in resting condition.

[4/14, 12:15 AM] priy ranjan tiwari Dr.:

organ or structure around pharynx may be called klom because we feel thirst here.

[4/14, 12:15 AM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

Conclusive discussion.

[4/14, 12:17 AM] priy ranjan tiwari Dr.:

klom gale aur taalu ke pass ka hi sthan hai

nahi to 20 yrs ke baad kahenge pyas lagne per leg me pain hota hai atah leg is klom

[4/14, 12:22 AM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

सर

जब गंगाधर जी जैसे विद्वान से सहमत नही आयुर्विद तो ऐसे अभी conclusive मत कहिये ।

सिर्फ गंगाधर जी के मत पर सहमत है कहिये ।

धरती वीरो से भरी पड़ी है ।

interpretation power of ayurved scholars,,,,,,,,,

इसलिए सिर्फ सहमति जताये

[4/14, 12:34 AM] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

पहली बार किसी दूसरे वैद्य से वाग्भट्ट विषयक ऐसे टिप्पणी सुनकर मेरा अंतरात्मा प्रफुल्लित हो गया।

डॉ गिरिराज सर !

[4/14, 6:42 AM] Shridutta Trivedi Dr:

Ayurved ka

Harday =heart+lung

(pranvah ka mool utapadak mool)

Klom=amashay se udhav jaha trusha ki anubhuti hoti he(udakvah ka pravratak mool)

[4/14, 6:47 AM] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

यह वो स्थान है जहाँ तृष्णा जन्य क्षोभ या घबराहट होने पर पानी व शीतल द्रव पीने पर राहत मिलती है। यह स्थान duodenum, jejunum प्रतीत होता है जहाँ से water absorption होता है। क्या यह उदकवह स्रोतस का मूल 'क्लोम' नहीं हो सकता । आयुर्वेद विद्वान जरा ध्यान से सोचें ।

आयुर्वेदानुसार duodenum, jejunum आमाशय ही हैं ।

[4/14, 7:03 AM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

अमाशय को foregut कहना ज्यादा उपयुक्त होगा ।

[4/14, 7:18 AM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

1 .तृष्णा एक मात्र लक्षण है जो बहुत से रोगों में मिलता है ।

जिसके कारण ही बहुत से अंग इसमे हम सब गिन रहे है ।

2. water absorption Stomach में भी होता है ।

3. 1st part of Duodenum is only part of foregut .

Remains part of Duodenum is part of midgut with Jejunum etc .

[4/14, 7:22 AM] Dr Divyesh Desai:

If Vagbhat Described Kafsthan

UrahKanthShirKlom

ParvaAmashayoRas

MadoGhranamJihva CH Kafsya Sutaram Urah. Here Vagbhatt not described Fupfus & Hriday separately Urah means Chest( lungs Heart Mediastenum etc)Klom was there means klom are not Lings so discussion of klom are Endless I request to our Genius Sirs concluded exactly what is Klom? I have fully trust in our AAPTAJAN.

[4/14, 7:28 AM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

well said. Good morning everyone.

[4/14, 7:39 AM] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir:

[4/14, 7:48 AM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

Hunger is felt through stomach. Kosthang situated in abdominal cavity

Thirst is felt through throat ~~ which is situated in thoracic cavity uro bhaag.

[4/14, 7:57 AM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

Hypothalamus,,,,,,,,,?

[4/14, 8:09 AM] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir:

1979-82 मैं जामनगर था वहाँ डा पिलापटिया श्रीलंका से थे पीएच डी करने आये थे लम्बे समय तक एक वर्ष तक चीन में रहकर एक्यूपंक्चर सीख कर आये थे अनेक लड़के मेरे जैसे उनसे सीखते थे

उनके अनुसार एक्यूपंक्चर वाले कहते है कि फुफ्फुस एक ठोस अंग है , वो इसे ठोस मानकर ही अपने सिद्धान्त बनाते है चिकित्सा करते है और सफल है ।

हम क्लोम को क्लोम मात्र क्यों नहीं मान सकते उसकी तुलना अन्य अंग से क्यों करना चाहते है ।

जिसआधुनिक विज्ञान में हम निष्णात नहीं है उसके आधार पर , जिस विज्ञान में हम निष्णात है उसके सिद्धान्तों को अंगों को , क्रियाओं को क्यों समझना चाहते है ????

हमारी दिशा क्या है , इस पर भी विचार करना चाहिये

[4/14, 8:12 AM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

[4/14, 8:26 AM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

अद्भुत अविस्मरणीय विवेचना और संभाषा ।

सभी क्लोमाचार्यों को सादर नमन वन्दन प्रणाम ।।

[4/14, 8:29 AM] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi:

*’आयुर्वेद क्रिया शारीर’ ग्रन्थ के लेखक वैद्य रणजीत राय देसाई जी ने तो स्पष्ट ही कहा है कि क्लोम एक संदिग्ध अव्यव है, बढ़े बढ़े विद्वानों ने एकमत ना होने के कारण हथियार डाल दिये।*

[4/14, 8:31 AM] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi:

*ये क्लोम बुभुक्षित पारद की तरह बाकी आयुर्वेद को खाने की क्षमता रखता है।*

[4/14, 8:33 AM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

क्लोमाचार्य कह कर हमें भी एक संदिग्ध वेत्ता तो नही मान लिया ना आचार्य ,,,,,,

[4/14, 8:34 AM] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

हमारे आचार्य भी हमारी तरह शायद क्लोम को सुनिश्चित नहीं कर पाए या क्लोम के बारे में उनका दृष्टिकोण /मन्तव्य भिन्न भिन्न था।

[4/14, 8:41 AM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

नहीं कदापि नहीं ।

क्लोमान्वेषक अभिप्राय ग्रहण कीजिए ।

गिरिराज सर !

[4/14, 9:05 AM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Kloma can be considered as mysentery. The fluid / nutrition is transported from intestines via mesentery only.

Mesenteric ischemia leads to fluid imbalance ~ trishna.

In January 2017 scientists accepted mesentery as one full fledged organ. Though they are yet to specify it's functions in detail.

Most of the description here - like kloma granthi Hrudaya abhighata leading to apakarshana etc can be considered as mesenteric ischemia.

Vagbhata mentioned kloma as koshtanga - mesentery

In rajayakshma kloma is affected - tb affecting mesenteric lymph nodes.

[4/14, 9:19 AM] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

Nice approximation with scientific reasoning

[4/14, 9:21 AM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Trishna / water balance impairment can happen when fluid/ nutrition uptake from intestines is hampered in mesentery.

Hence proved.

[4/14, 9:34 AM] Dr Bhadresh Nayak, Surat:

Klom regular the water Ballance

In water content

Electrolyte

Electrolyte imbalance leads to brain

Heart

Kidney disorder leads to many complications might consider the life threating condition

[4/14, 9:35 AM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Let us consider it as fluid balance and electrolytes. During mysenteric ischemia this is exactly imbalanced.

[4/14, 9:36 AM] MB Gururaja Dr:

Acharya vagbhata is correct.

[4/14, 9:39 AM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Because war injuries of abdomen were very common in olden days mesentery was always under the radar of acharyas.

Hence mesentery was studied in great detail by them

They got to know that mesentery is related with gut, fluid balance and circulation system and indirectly respiratory system.

Acute Mesenteric ischemia due to injury was very common those days leading to afflicted fluid balance, respiratory and cardiac symptoms.

[4/14, 9:41 AM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

क्लोम

1. Brain

2 .Supra Renal gland

4. Mesentery

4. Interstitum

5......

6......

7......

8.......

9.....

10...

महास्रोतस

[4/14, 9:52 AM] Dr Bhadresh Nayak, Surat:

Why only mesenteric

If we talked about this issue might consider all lymphatic system please guide.

[4/14, 9:55 AM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Sir, Hrudaya is heart. The vessels are associated srotas of Hrudaya.

Similarly mesentery is the organ and the total lymphatic system can be considered as udakavaha / annavaha/ rasavaha srotas.

Moreover Vagbhata has specifically mentioned the presence of kloma in abdominal cavity.

[4/14, 9:57 AM] Dr Harish Canada:

What is ultimate objective of unfolding Klom mystery?

World is heading towards World War 3.

USA has triggered.

[4/14, 10:38 AM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

Seems logical Dr janardan ji.

Recently discovered new organ which every where in social media may be linked to klom.

[4/14, 11:09 AM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Kloma is in deed a burning issue. Due to world war 3, there may be many abdominal injuries leading to mesenteric ischemia .

We should be ready to treat them. How can we do that without defining kloma properly ?

[4/14, 11:21 AM] Dr. D C Katoch sir: Bilkul theek. Aapke spastikaran mein hi klom ki sachai hai.

[4/14, 11:22 AM] shuklaji ram: क्लोम हृदयवयव विशेष

[4/14, 11:28 AM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Yes sir. Mesentery and heart are connected. That is why mesentery is a site for secondary ischemia

[4/14, 11:31 AM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

textual reference is in context to Udara. Hence mesentery makes more sense here.

[4/14, 11:35 AM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

location of Mesentery Posterior Abdominal wall

[4/14, 11:35 AM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

Both side right and left

[4/14, 4:05 PM] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir:

क्लोम सब का ग्रास ले लेगा बुभुक्षित पारद की तरह ।

इसे दण्डवत् प्रणाम कीजिये

[4/14, 4:12 PM] Dr Mitesh KS:

[4/14, 8:39 PM] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

Lastly I want to speak few lines regarding the identification of klom. Actually if we use the term comparison than it is arising question in our mind about the requirements of it. But perfect identification is very essential in this modern era. We cannot stand ourselves anywhere with assumption.

To identify a organ its anatomical location is most important. It has to be satisfy first.

The three main ground in accepting right lungs as klom is :

1-As per location it is true.

2-There is mention of only one lung in left side of heart. No one can belief that Sushrut has missed to identify left lung.

3-its approximity with yakrit.

No single condition should be missed in identifying klom.

Physiology cannot be seen . Even modern science also developing regarding this.

Who can say it will never proved as the main responsible organ for thirst in future?

These are my points in favour of accepting right lung as klom.

[4/14, 8:50 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

Your body now has an extra organ.

FIONA MACDONALD 3 JAN 2017

Researchers have classified a brand-new organ inside our bodies, one that's been hiding in plain sight in our digestive system this whole time.

Although we now know about the structure of this new organ, its function is still poorly understood, and studying it could be the key to better understanding and treatment of abdominal and digestive disease.

Known as the mesentery, the new organ is found in our digestive systems, and was long thought to be made up of fragmented, separate structures. But recent research has shown that it's actually one, continuous organ.

The evidence for the organ's reclassification is now published in The Lancet Gastroenterology & Hepatology.

"In the paper, which has been peer reviewed and assessed, we are now saying we have an organ in the body which hasn’t been acknowledged as such to date," said J Calvin Coffey, a researcher from the University Hospital Limerick in Ireland, who first discovered that the mesentery was an organ.

"The anatomic description that had been laid down over 100 years of anatomy was incorrect. This organ is far from fragmented and complex. It is simply one continuous structure."

Thanks to the new research, as of last year, medical students started being taught that the mesentery is a distinct organ.

The world's best-known series of medical textbooks, Gray's Anatomy, has even been updated to include the new definition.

So what is the mesentery ? It's a double fold of peritoneum - the lining of the abdominal cavity - that attaches our intestine to the wall of our abdomen, and keeps everything locked in place.

One of the earliest descriptions of the mesentery was made by Leonardo da Vinci, and for centuries it was generally ignored as a type of insignificant attachment. Over the past century, doctors who studied the mesentery assumed it was a fragmented structure made of separate sections, which made it pretty unimportant.

But in 2012, Coffey and his colleagues showed through detailed microscopic examinations that the mesentery is actually a continuous structure.

Over the past four years, they've gathered further evidence that the mesentery should actually be classified as its own distinct organ, and the latest paper makes it official.

You can see the new organ illustrated below:

image 4479-Mesentery

And while that doesn't change the structure that's been inside our bodies all along, with the reclassification comes a whole new field of medical science that could improve our health outcomes.

"When we approach it like every other organ… we can categorise abdominal disease in terms of this organ," said Coffey.

That means that medical students and researchers will now investigate what role - if any - the mesentery might play on abdominal diseases, and that understanding will hopefully lead to better outcomes for patients.

"Now we have established anatomy and the structure. The next step is the function. If you understand the function you can identify abnormal function, and then you have disease. Put them all together and you have the field of mesenteric science … the basis for a whole new area of science," said Coffey.

"This is relevant universally as it affects all of us."

It just goes to show that no matter how advanced science becomes, there's always more to learn and discover, even within our own bodies.

The research has been published in The Lancet Gastroenterology & Hepatology.

Copy pasted latest research Article.

[4/14, 8:51 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni: Hebber Sir !!

[4/14, 8:56 PM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Mesentary is more approximate to yaktit than lungs.

For lungs there is a diaphragm in between

[4/14, 8:57 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

[4/14, 8:57 PM] amol kadu Dr:

Final conclusion still awaited...

[4/14, 8:58 PM] pawan madan Dr:

Hebber sir....good points....

[4/14, 8:58 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

और कुछ इंतजार कर लेना चाहिए । हो सकता है कोई नया ऑर्गन आ जाये , फिर ,,,,,,,,,,

क्लोम

[4/14, 8:58 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

It is to be done by all gurujan and sharirvid.

[4/14, 8:58 PM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

It is mesentery. Final. Lock kiya jay.

[4/14, 8:59 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

[4/14, 9:00 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

इस संदर्भ जन्य को अगर आप्त माने तो फिर से समझिए ।

बाये और फुफ्फुस ( वक्ष) प्लीहा ( उदर)

ठीक दक्षिण में क्लोम ( वक्ष ) यकृत (उदर)

[4/14, 9:01 PM] MB Gururaja Dr: Truth.

[4/14, 9:05 PM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Thanks for the confirmation Gururaja sir, Soni sir.

[4/14, 9:05 PM] Raghuram Dr Banguluru:

*The Kloma Controversy – my hypothesis*

It is indeed a very good discussion about Kloma since past few days. Good contributions by everyone.

Since it is a tempting discussion, I thought of contributing my part too.

*Version 1*

*Kloma is a Kapha organ (or tissue)* –

Yes, kloma is one of the seats of kapha predominance.

*Kapha-Kloma-Water link*

Kapha is water body – *Kena Jalena Phalati* , that which gets enriched or nourished by water is called kapha. This shows that kapha and water, as long as the composition of the body is concerned are entities representing each other. Water in proper qualities and quantities enrich Kapha or water body in our physical body.

Kapha operates through *ambukarma i.e. water like action*. This shows that the Kapha and its entire family functions on the lines of water like action. Thus Kapha is the water body.

7/10 elements (5 dhatus and 2 malas) have been mentioned as Kapha sthanas, which sums up to 70%, almost similar to the water quantity of the body.

*Water rich tissues (water depots, water storage or back-up zones)*

Rasa,

Mamsa,

Meda,

Majja,

Shukra,

Pureesha and

Mutra

*Kapha Operating System* – (KOS) comprises of an *integrated closed network* of uras, kantha, shira, kloma, parva, amashaya, rasa, meda, ghrana and jihwa. All these should work in an integrated way to maintain that 70% of water balance, neither going beyond nor lesser than that. Therefore KOS is a closed network of assigned organs and tissues which correlate and coordinate with each other to have the water body in balance so as to provide a buffer from the heating action of pitta and drying action of vata.

The mentioned organs are spread out in the head, neck, thorax and abdomen, indicating that kapha is present all over the body. When one member in this system is disturbed, it sends the signals to the other organs and tissues. They may be mutually influenced by each other’s damage also.

*Kloma* is one of the members of the KOS in the body which perceives the loss of water and signals it to the body for compensation. Water loss or imbalance may alternatively damage kloma and we may get its signals from talu. Similarly the deficiency of water imbalance in KOS may be reflected in the form of dryness of talu and kloma. This it probably does by alerting the other water sub-bodies located in uras, kantha etc through signals. Therefore when there is water deficiency or imbalance, each of these may be activated.

*Kapha controlling stations (main offices)* – Kapha activities are monitored from 5 major centers involving the KOS. They are – uras (avalambaka), shira (tarpaka), tongue (bodhaka), stomach (kledaka) and joints (shleshaka). The deficiency symptoms of water imbalance will be depicted in these regions also.

*Where do we find udaka?*

In the entire body

*Where do we have Udakavaha Srotas?*

Travelling (located) all through the body

*What may srotas denote?*

Generally Transporting system (channels of transport, discharge, flow)

Manufacturing centers and distributing centers

Site of attachment (origin or insertion)

Areas of spread

*Udakavaha Srotas Mula*

Mula in the context of Udaka Vaha Srotas means –

‘Signal system or alarming system’ of maintenance and imbalance of KOS or water body (both kloma and talu)

Water regulating centers in the brain (hypothalamus) and thirst sensors (palate) i.e. talu + absorption and water distribution centers in the abdomen (highlighted ahead) i.e. kloma , here, one gets damaged (kloma) and one indicates the deficiency (talu)

Deficiency of water or imbalance in the entire KOS and tissues predominant in kapha (water) will reflect as thirst or want of water. They would express want of water through two alarm stations i.e. Talu and Kloma.

*What organs or tissues fall into the territory of Kloma?*

Many organs have been discussed as representing kloma (even in this elite group).

Lung (right)

Gall bladder

Mesentery

Stomach and duodenum

Trachea

Pharynx

Adrenal Gland

Lymphatic system, nodes and ducts

From different perspectives everything seems to be correct. But one among the kapha sthanas mentioned above (KOS) should be Kloma. We cannot jump into unanimous decision about this so called controversial concept.

*Few more concepts I just wanted to add* –

*Sadhyo marana* or immediate death is one of the symptoms of *damage to udakavaha srotas* given by Sushruta. This might not occur just by fluid or water imbalance occurring in the body for a shorter time, because by instinct we all know to satisfy the need for water which gets manifested in the form of thirst or trishna. Sadhyo Marana may be a consequence of thirst or trishna which is of chronic nature or is associated with some serious pathology or is a part of a chronic stubborn, complicated disease with bad prognosis.

Sadhyo marana also reflects severe or complete dehydration in which even substitution or replacement of fluid also might not resuscitate the patient back to life. This may be in cases of shock especially due to severe hemorrhage and fluid loss.

Holding this, we need to see which among the above mentioned organs fit into the concept of Kloma.

When we go to a related concept *Sadhyo Pranahara Marma*, we do not find any organ listed out as Kloma falling into the concept of Sadhyo Pranahara Marma. But *Nabhi and Hridaya* are two structures which are Sadhyo Pranahara Marmas which are abdominal, other one being Vasti (not related here). Hridaya is not Kloma. Nabhi is also not kloma.

*Seeing the location of Kloma explained in Ayurvedic texts, Kloma is some structure which is located in abdomen, located below and right of hridaya or heart, which when injured causes severe thirst and immediate death in spite of not being a marma*. But it can be closely located to a marma i.e. Hridaya Marma and Nabhi Marma. Therefore, we can see that *Kloma is located in between Hridaya and Nabhi*.

*So it makes sense in considering* (the below mentioned structures as kloma) –

*Pancreas* – though often compared to Agnyashaya, mainly produces insulin (anabolic hormone) and somatostatin (inhibitory hormone) which has kapha like actions, pancreatic juice also buffers the acidity of chyme (kapha like action or anti-pitta action). Deficiency of insulin will lead to excessive sugar in the blood stream and consequent manifestation of thirst suggesting kapha kshaya or udaka kshaya. Some part of Pancreas is located below and to the right of heart. Though Pancreas can produce many painful conditions, it is said to be the least commonly injured organs in the abdominal trauma.

*Mesentery* – For all the reasons and substantiation given by Dr Hebbar, I would not touch upon it once again. Mesentery seems to be one good inclusion for considering Kloma.

*Small Intestine* – The early (initial length) of coils of jejunum and duodenum absorb major quantity of water. Since Small Intestine, mainly jejunum or half of jejunum match with the location of Kloma explained in Ayurvedic texts, it can be considered as Kloma.

*Gall bladder* – but we do not have many evidences for it taking part in water regulation or balance. It is also not prone for more injuries, even if injured may not cause immediate death.

*Suprarenal Gland* – Aldosterone secreted by suprarenal gland promotes water retention by kidneys and regulates the water balance. But it is a paired gland.

*My Kloma would be a small circle which comprises of coils of upper intestine (jejunum and duodenum, though duodenum singly can be considered as grahani) with mesentery and lymph nodes with (?) or without pancreas*

*Version 2*

If we interpret *Sushruta's concept* things become clear...

We will split *Sushruta's explanation* I.e. *Tasya adho vaamatah pleeha phuphusaha cha, dakshinato Yakrit kloma cha* as

*Hridayasya adho vaamatah* I.e. below the heart and to the left we have pleeha or spleen (adho I.e. below in the left) and to the left of heart above (vamataha I.e. by the left side to the heart) we have phuphusa I.e. left lung. *Therefore Sushruta hasn't considered right lung as phuphusa*

Corresponding to this explanation - *Hridayasya dakshinato (adho) Yakrit, dakshinato (upari) klomaha* I.e. below the heart and to the right (corresponding to pleeha) we have Yakrit I.e. liver and to its right (corresponding to phuphusa or left lung) we have kloma.

According to this one, *Kloma is right lung*

Teeka on Ashtanga Hridaya Ch12, shl also gives explanation that *Hrid dakshinato mamsa granthi* for kloma, which also justifies right lung.

Note - Some ppl hv also correlated *mediastinum as kloma*

*Disclaimer* –

I have used certain new terms just to make things look interesting.

I am not concluding this topic with a conclusive conclusion.

I have given my perspective of Kloma.

[4/14, 9:12 PM] amol kadu Dr Ayu: Very well explained sir

[4/14, 9:13 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

Excellent conclusive description Raghu Sir !!

It is always pleasant to see your post especially when it comes after a very long long duration.

[4/14, 9:14 PM] pawan madan Dr:

But then how these coils will be the seat of pipaasa *physiological state*?

[4/14, 9:14 PM] pawan madan Dr:

Seat of pipaasa in physiological state...

[4/14, 9:15 PM] pawan madan Dr:

In your description all of the options seem to satisfay one or the otheer criteria texted aboit klom in shastras....

[4/14, 9:16 PM] Raghuram Dr Banguluru:

Thanks so much sir

[4/14, 9:17 PM] MB Gururaja Dr:

Very well explained all the connected versions......

But how we can consider agnyashaya (Pancreas) a kapha sthana?

Hence mysentery without pancreas will justify... kloma.

[4/14, 9:17 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi: Fantastic

[4/14, 9:17 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

[4/14, 9:21 PM] Raghuram Dr Banguluru:

Thanks for good words Soni sir, it's equally pleasant to get your feedback and compliments

It's always a temptation to speak out when a challenging topic is under discussion... *Dil klom klom ho Gaya*

I heartily bow down to the wisdom of this group...so innovative points and discussions... Top class

for all those who were a part of this discussion...and to you for coordinating sir

[4/14, 9:24 PM] Raghuram Dr Banguluru:

Thanks Pawan sir

, coils are not seat of pipasaa, but if absorption doesn't take place as programmed, pipasaa is manifested...

[4/14, 9:26 PM] pawan madan Dr:

Thats why I asked in physiological state...

This is a peculier physiological function of klom.....

[4/14, 9:27 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

क्लोम का स्थान

आकृति

[4/14, 9:29 PM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Explained in the article shared by Dr Surendra Soni

[4/14, 9:31 PM] Raghuram Dr Banguluru:

Thanks Gururaja sir

I have not considered Agnyashaya as Kapha sthana, but most functions of pancreas satisfy ambukarma and hence that if Kapha (as explained)

And then Agni is also in Grahani *Agni adhishtanam annasya Grahanaad...* And where else not?

Pancreas is correlated to Agnyashaya, not equated, some ppl differ...

I was trying to give a different hypothesis (and did not forget to mention the word *hypothesis* in the heading

)

And I hv mentioned with / without pancreas to get different opinions, the first one is yours, will tk it

[4/14, 9:32 PM] Raghuram Dr Banguluru:

Thanks so much Ankur sir, pleasant to hv you and your energy back @ *KS*

[4/14, 9:33 PM] Raghuram Dr Banguluru:

Thanks yet again Pawan sir

[4/14, 9:35 PM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

In the physiological state when fluids plus nutrition is absorbed by the mesentery, it creates negative water balance in koshta. Leading to water demand - trushna. Hence mesentery causes trushna even in normal physiology.

[4/14, 9:36 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

Can we say a type of reservoir at certain extent....??

My Concept is not clear...!?

Giriraj Sir !

[4/14, 9:37 PM] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

Dr Raghu. Well explained an intricate issue. Considering all anatomical aspects, Kloma could be best resolved to be an intricately interconnected functional entity.

[4/14, 9:37 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

क्लोम पुनः एक अंग न होकर

लक्षण , आकृति , स्थान , विकृति अनुरूप अनेक अंगों के में गिना जाएगा ।

सच मे क्लोम ब्रह्मा के मानस पुत्र नारद एवं पारद ही है ।

[4/14, 9:37 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

[4/14, 9:38 PM] MB Gururaja Dr:

[4/14, 9:38 PM] pawan madan Dr: Seems logical....

[4/14, 9:39 PM] Dr Aadarsh:

[4/14, 9:39 PM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Whether kloma = mesentery acts as a reservoir is yet to be explored with modern science. It definitely is a transporter.

[4/14, 9:40 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

Needs guidance from sharir-kriyavid....!!

Please guide.

[4/14, 9:40 PM] pawan madan Dr:

*Thats the point I am.saying from the very begining.*

Thanks sir...

[4/14, 9:40 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni: Should be....

[4/14, 9:40 PM] pawan madan Dr:

[4/14, 9:41 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

[4/14, 9:42 PM] Raghuram Dr Banguluru:

Should be both, but for time being *transportion will do*...

*Abhivahini bhavanti...*

[4/14, 9:42 PM] Bharat Padhar Vd:

Excellent compilation of various reference of Kloma and its justification with scientific approach..

[4/14, 9:49 PM] MB Gururaja Dr:

It is both reservoir and transporter....

Mysentric veins drains to portal vein and throughout this channel there is a pressure... Generally during USG abdomen Doppler study they give out portal vein pressure .....Pressure is created when certain amount of obstruction to the path or congestion occurs hence the fluid content slowly moves ...

[4/14, 9:51 PM] Raghuram Dr Banguluru:

[4/14, 9:52 PM] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

"सम्भाषा निसंशयाकराणाम्" is rightly said but still in many shastriye issues we can not reach a logical conclusion.

[4/14, 9:53 PM] Raghuram Dr Banguluru:

Rightly said sir... totally agree

[4/14, 9:54 PM] Bharat Padhar Vd:

Well said sir...still waiting for final conclusion...

[4/14, 9:58 PM] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

I feel, the term 'Kloma' in different classical texts and commentaries is not synonymous. In fact, Kloma is anekarthak -not ekarthak.

[4/14, 10:03 PM] pawan madan Dr:

.....

100% true.

It should be understood as per the context.

srotas

siraa

dhamani...etc

[4/14, 10:04 PM] Dr. D C Katoch sir: Logical understanding!

[4/14, 10:06 PM] Dr Rupinder Kaur:

Sabhi gurujano ko pranaam

As there was a discussion on klom. This is the aspect which is not so clear. There is water in whole body and it is a water regulatory system. In this way it is a part of brain. With increased respiration our thirst increases here it can be related to lungs. Increased urine output also causes thirst, klom being a regulatory system can be related here also.

Each and everyone is right according to their point of view.

Ayurveda is a science which is written in a deep meditative state. As in yog it is written that there are 72000 nadis in our body. Practically it’s comparison is also very difficult. Same here with klom.

May be when we reach that state of mind we will become understood about these type of descriptions in our text.

These are just my views

[4/14, 10:11 PM] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

Let us close all hypotheses about an issue, which is so differently explained in different texts, but without overriding objective, meaning and logic.

[4/14, 10:16 PM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Wonderful to know sir. Thanks for sharing. One more point nearing the conclusion of kloma as mesentery.

[4/14, 10:25 PM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Udakavaha srotas injury sadyo Marana.

Mesentery injury - profuse intra abdominal bleeding + peritonitis -> death

[4/14, 10:28 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma: सद्य 1 से 7 दिन में मारक

[4/14, 10:29 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

[4/14, 10:30 PM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Peritonitis with heavy internal bleeding can kill within that time

[4/14, 10:38 PM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

a case study of blunt abdominal injury leading yo mesentery vascular rupture and death.

[4/14, 10:39 PM] Janardan Hebbar Dr: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5072017/

[4/14, 10:40 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

ऐसी ही सम्प्राप्ति तो lungs और Pleura में भी मिल जाएगी ।

[4/14, 10:41 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

राजयक्ष्मा में भी (उदक) सोम विकृति ही है ।

[4/14, 10:41 PM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Water balance mechanism and physiological trushna in both lungs and pleura is unexplained.

[4/14, 10:41 PM] shekhar singh MP: Fully Agree

[4/14, 10:42 PM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Mesenteric tuberculosis

[4/14, 10:42 PM] shekhar singh MP: सार्थक वचन

[4/14, 10:43 PM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1399041/

[4/14, 10:43 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

Lungs ,,,,,में भी मिल जाएगा ।

skin में भी

[4/14, 10:44 PM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Vagbhata has explained kloma as koshtanga. Still physiological trushna is unexplained with lungs.

[4/14, 10:44 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma: ये क्लोम है साहिब ,,,,

[4/14, 10:45 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma: सु ने left फुफ्फुस के साथ

[4/14, 10:46 PM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Vagbhata has explained kloma as koshtanga. Still physiological trushna is unexplained with lungs. Hence lungs are not kloma.

Even with Sushruta s explanation, mesentery is nearer to yakrut than the left lung.

Yakrut is on the right side.

[4/14, 10:49 PM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Until someone explains udakavaha relationship "only with Left lung" and not with right lung, left lung = kloma hypothesis stands disproved.

[4/14, 10:49 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma: ह्रदय के नीचे दक्षिण ऒर

[4/14, 10:49 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

location of Mesentery,,,,

posterior Abdominal wall

both side

[4/14, 10:53 PM] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

Kloma will remain Kloma in whatever way you all try to interpret it. It is Yavya to treat and manage.

On dissection Kloma appears to be an organ, which you can not take out.

[4/14, 10:56 PM] Raghuram Dr Banguluru:

thats what I hv mentioned in my write-up

[4/14, 10:57 PM] Dr. Tarun Dube, Pachmarhi:

[4/14, 10:57 PM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

right lung alone and not left lung as cause for trushna is not proven

[4/14, 10:58 PM] Raghuram Dr Banguluru:

That is Sadhyo prana Hara Marma sir, this is only about sadhyo marana mentioned by Sushruta in udakavaha sroto viddha lakshana

[4/14, 10:58 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

Mesentery is क्लोम

मेरे कहने से अगर हो गयी तो ये लीजिये

[4/14, 10:59 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

[4/14, 10:59 PM] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

One thing is clear that Kloma can not be put in the anatomy museum jar.

[4/14, 11:00 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

पर कल कोई नया अंग खोजा जाए तो उसे माफ कर देना ।

[4/14, 11:04 PM] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

रात्रि देवी, रक्षा करना । आज क्लोम के ही सपने आएँगे ।

[4/14, 11:04 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

[4/14, 11:05 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

तिल आकृति Mesentery , मंडल सन्धि वाली Mesentery , ,ह्रदय अध दक्षिण में यकृत के साथ स्तिथ Mesentery , जिसका पिपासा लक्षण है वो Mesentery क्लोम है ।

[4/14, 11:06 PM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Till the time right lung is solely proved as thirst physiology inducer and eater balance mechaniser have to accept mesentery as kloma.

[4/14, 11:07 PM] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi:

*सूर्यास्त होते ही क्लोम नामक कुंभकर्ण जाग जाता है जो अर्धरात्रि तक आयुर्वेदज्ञों को उलझाये रखता है।*

[4/14, 11:07 PM] shekhar singh MP:

[4/14, 11:08 PM] shekhar singh MP:

[4/14, 11:08 PM] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

और मुखतालुशोष होने लगता है।

[4/14, 11:08 PM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Til akruti and mandala sandhi - circular as in circular stairs = mesentery.

[4/14, 11:08 PM] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

Pranam sir

Sir a anatomical entity how can be a physiological one???

[4/14, 11:09 PM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Just like heart had both anatomical and physiological existence.

[4/14, 11:09 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

[4/14, 11:09 PM] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi:

*सर, मुझे तो cervical pain होने लगा है, लिखना ही कम हो गया है।*

[4/14, 11:10 PM] shekhar singh MP:

I appreciate the stamina of All Maanas putras of Dhanvantari

[4/14, 11:10 PM] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

Physiology happens in anatomical entity.

[4/14, 11:10 PM] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

Jabtak ayurved, modern science ke andar nahin aaya hai tab tak bas ye sab chalega

[4/14, 11:10 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

[4/14, 11:13 PM] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi:

*जब विद्वान एकमत ना हो तो अच्छा है कि क्लोम पर कुछ दिनो के लिये चर्चा रोक दी जाये, ये क्लोम पर चर्चा का अतिसेवन है।*

[4/14, 11:14 PM] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

Thank you sir for so elaborate description. But we have to choose one.

I am trying to give a proper identification of mesentery as per Ayurveda. But it is not mesentery .

[4/14, 11:17 PM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr:

2000 yrs old mystery of क्लोम solved

[4/14, 11:17 PM] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

Yes sir but confirmation about anatomy should be there, otherwise physiology also vary.

[4/14, 11:18 PM] Raghuram Dr Banguluru:

Thanks madam ji

All these efforts are to choose *one*, and I feel this elite group us capable enough to draw such conclusions...

If the myths and secrets of concepts like *kloma* be decoded some day, it ll be from *this very group*.

[4/14, 11:20 PM] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

I also hope so.

[4/14, 11:23 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

जय क्लोम देवी , जय क्लोम देव

[4/14, 11:24 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

[4/14, 11:24 PM] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

Sir milk se ghee nikalana asaan nahin, dahi hota to alag baat.Phir milavati milk , pata nahin detergent ya phir sampoo aadi kya kya milavat hai. Dharya to rakhna padega.mehnat ka phal bekaar nahin hota hai

[4/14, 11:26 PM] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

Sir, Klom ka alag identification ke baad hi kuch final nishkarsh aane ka sambhavana hai .

[4/15, 12:34 AM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

One more point on kloma. In Charaka udara chikitsa. 13 \45 vata resides in kloma to cause udara following atyambu pana during mandagni.

This hints that kloma is an abdominal organ and not right lung.

[4/15, 5:32 AM] shuklaji ram:

Agreed

But at the same time jalidar is also causes by cardiac cause

Charak hasn't mentioned hriday roga but only in trimarmiya, brief information is available.

Again in aptantrak he says the sthan is hriday and not cns.

Klom hriday vishesh

Like klom , hruday, vrikk is also a point of debate in ayurveda.

Klom - hriday

Klom- pipasa sthan- talu

Klom - mesentry......

Klom.....

[4/15, 6:36 AM] Dr Divyesh Desai:

The Basic Organs of Udakvah Strotas are Talu & Klom but What is the meaning of Udak? Our body has contains 79% of Water.Even all dhatu contains water(Udak?) So understand about UDAK first and then Discus about KLOM. We will make KLOM UNIVERSITY & give degree of M.D.PhD KLOM(SHIR/UDAR/CHEST/LUNGS/HEART/WHOLE BODY/KIDNEY/WATER CONTROL) etc.

[4/15, 6:49 AM] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

Identification of Kloma or Mesentery? Mesentery is well identified and recently designated as a specific organ. Identity question is of Kloma.

[4/15, 6:57 AM] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

You are indicating political chikitsa for Janpadodhwans. Yes, that is also a point of consideration for resolving the issue of Kloma

Dr. Anupama ji !

[4/15, 7:50 AM] Prof. KSR Prasad Tachnoayurveda:

Kloma is one of 15 koshtanga .. need to explore with in

[4/15, 8:01 AM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Talu and hrudaya are very well defined as separate entities and kloma is told as koshtanga. So there is only one option left.

[4/15, 8:05 AM] shuklaji ram:

But then chakr apani should have used another word.

Did he meant hriday as mesentry then..?

[4/15, 8:05 AM] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

In the context of Kloma-either we should take holistic view or reductionistic view. Both can resolve the issue for the time being otherwise it is going to be endless and non-conclusive with individualistic conviction and hypothesis.

[4/15, 8:08 AM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

"The mesentery is a continuation of the peritoneum that is made of connective tissue. It secretes serous fluid, providing lubrication and decreasing the friction between abdominal organs. "

Lubrication and avoiding friction - a classical kapha function and kloma is kapha site.

[4/15, 8:10 AM] priy ranjan tiwari Dr.: ✔✔

[4/15, 8:11 AM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Chakrapani used the term "hrudaya avayava" - a connected supplementary organ to heart.

He did not mention it as Hrudaya.

As mesentery is contains important blood vessels of intestines and is involved in carrying the. Fluids from intestines to the heart, it can be considered as hrudaya avayava.

[4/15, 8:19 AM] Prof. KSR Prasad Tachnoayurveda:

Ayurveda defines 3 hrudaya ... shiro uro and udara ..

In the context udara hridaya is considered i.e. hepatoportal circulation and connected organ

[4/15, 8:21 AM] shuklaji ram:

1/1

Mesentery: In general, a fold of tissue that attaches organs to the body wall. The word mesentery usually refers to the small bowel mesentery, which anchors the small intestines to the back of the abdominal wall. Blood vessels, nerves, and lymphatics branch through the mesentery to supply the intestine. Other mesenteries exist to support the sigmoid colon, appendix, transverse colon, and portions of the ascending and descending colon.

Does kapha sthan extends till descending Colon

Well the organs below half part of amashay (adhah amashay) are mentioned as pitta sthan.

The location of mesentry atleast seems to be of pitta sthana

Also pitta is drav nd snigdh....

[4/15, 8:24 AM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Whole explaining kapha sthana, the master has not restricted himself only to uro bhaga organs.

Parvani and medas which are present in other places are Aldo considered as kapha places. So there is no rule that a kapha organ should not be present in koshta region.

[4/15, 8:26 AM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Another function of mesentery is to hold intestines in their place.

"Sthirata" another classic kapha quality.

[4/15, 8:27 AM] shuklaji ram:

But one can justify pitta also

Serous fluid- drav and sneha guna of pitta. Moreover the whole sthan also correlates.

And pipasa is mainly due to pitta rather kapha

[4/15, 8:27 AM] shuklaji ram: Kloma- pipasa sthan

[4/15, 8:37 AM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Mesentery that encompasses all the way from duodenum till the colon together is considered as one organ. So it does not sit just at pitta place. Just with the place it is hard to consider as pitta organ. Even medas tends to collect more in the abdominal region. That does not make medas a pitta entity. It still remains a kapha entity.

[4/15, 8:50 AM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

Janardan Sir !

Pitta sthan is intraluminal space site for enzymes activities while mesentery is situated in extraluminal space as a fluid transporter, shock absorber/protecter and reservoir.

Probably fluids coming out in initial phase of diarrhea

mysentery

intestinal vessels

generalised from body

vital organs.

In first phase massive thirst occurs, moorchchha in last phase.

Same reverse pattern in jalodar overloaded fluid accumulates in peritoneal cavity vice versa.

[4/15, 9:06 AM] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

Very rational approach- Kayachikitsak hi yogya astangayurvedgya lagta hai gutthian suljhane mein.

[4/15, 9:19 AM] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi:

*It is a great art to make things simpler by going out of the trap of words,blessed are the students that you met like a guru*.

[4/15, 9:53 AM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Kloma is one important kapha sthana.

We ought to know it in detail.

Modern science is still exploring the possible functions of mesentery. Knowing kloma in detail will help in understanding the samorsoti of many disorders related to udakavaha srotas such as udara, kshaya, trushna etc better.

It may Also give new dimensions of treating these diseases.

[4/15, 9:54 AM] Dr Harish Canada:

[4/15, 9:54 AM] Dr Giriraj Sharma: कफ़ और उदक अब एक हो गए

[4/15, 10:30 AM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Kapha and udaka are different. Though related with each other.

[4/15, 10:32 AM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

क्लोम कफ का स्थान वो भी important

इस लिए

[4/15, 10:33 AM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Yes. Lubrication of abdominal viscera + holding them stable at on place.

[4/15, 10:51 AM] Sanjay Chhajed Dr. Mumbai:

I would like to put some of my thoughts in front of all the vidvatjana

Like tridosha, the kloma also might be a functional entity. Which might be active through various organs as & when required. Is it necessary to have every entity mentioned should have some equivalent seen in Anatomy? Or there could be some possibility that during the process of evolution over last 5000 years the government has organ might have been a altered?

Though we could clinically observe the udakvaha strotodushti and treat them successfully, it could remain a contravertial organ. We can see use radiotagged medicine to explore the mystique of kloma. We have a can trace the movement of the medicines tagged and can locate.

There could be many more words which need to be explored like this kleda - the way dhatuantargat Sneha, and even the biggest mystery the most tridosha.

The shukra in females etc.

I am trained by professor Gurdipsingh sir that look at the functional aspects and not the anatomical. It works

[4/15, 11:23 AM] Bhushan bhakad Vd. Nasik:

हृदय = heart + lungs

If we (have to) compare Bronchial asthma with shwas then, as per charak adhisthan of shwas is hruday not klom.. in charak there is no words like फूफ़्फ़ुस.

[4/15, 5:22 PM] MB Gururaja Dr:

[4/16, 10:07 PM] Dr. R S. Soni, Delhi:

अद्भुत विमर्श हुए गत सप्ताह।

व्यस्तता के कारण भाग नहीं ले पाने का मलाल रहेगा।

क्लोम का निष्कर्ष निकलने के अत्यंत निकट था।

बहुत ही सारगर्भित और ज्ञानवर्धक विवेचन पढ़ने को मिला। सभी विद्वत जनों को कोटि कोटि नमन

[4/16, 10:13 PM] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

Sorry sir for late response. Sir discussion was about identification of klom.

As per few members mesentery may be compared with klom. But I was not agree about it so I told that I am trying to give a appropriate ay identification for mesentery.

I am confident enough to take rt lung as klom.

I also got another clue that . In case of vidradhi in klom (empyema)difficulty in breathing is seen as a main symptom, which has been mentioned by both Charak and Sushrut samhita.

[4/16, 10:14 PM] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

Abscess in pleura mostly found in rt lung only.

[4/16, 11:41 PM] MB Gururaja Dr:

No such criterion , abscess can happen in both lungs and both pleural space....

[4/16, 11:49 PM] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

Sir I collected this knowledge from net only. Other kaya chikitsa people may give more detail about it.

[4/17, 12:11 AM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Mesenteric myolipoma and mesenteric panniculitia also causes dyspnoea.

Available in internet.

[4/17, 12:14 AM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Udara is told as a disease of udakavaha srotas - mesenteric ascites.

[4/17, 12:15 AM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Any abdominal injury causing mesenteric abscess and peritonitis may also lead to dysponea.

[4/17, 12:16 AM] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

Most important ground is as per anatomical position mesentery is not fitting with the available description of Sushrut. If primary condition is not satisfied then I think there is no need to proceed further.

[4/17, 7:59 AM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Vagbhata mentioned it as koshtanga.

And all the physiological and pathological parameters of kloma match with mesentery.

[4/17, 8:05 AM] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

Your conviction is by and large very right but in academic democracy everybody is free to speak/opine/counter/agree/disagree. Don't worry much-your viewpoint is well taken and you also take it in the spirit that nothing is absolute in Ayurveda, principle of relativity is much imbibed in every intent and content of Ayurveda.

[4/17, 8:10 AM] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

Kloma by name is not important, it is important by function and functionality is the basis of life, health and disease not the name itself.

[4/17, 8:11 AM] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir:

वाह क्या बात है

यही सारांश है

[4/17, 8:13 AM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

क्लोम को , Rt lung, pancreas, gallbladder , Suprarenal galnd, Mesentery, कुछ भी मानने से चिकित्सा सिद्धान्त नही बदलेंगे ।

[4/17, 8:13 AM] Dr. D C Katoch sir: र॔गा खुश

[4/17, 8:13 AM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

Respected sir,

I have not made any personal remarks / lewd/ sarcastic comments as others did, throughout the discussion of kloma.

I just sticked to the topic of discussion of science.

Sorry if my behaviour caused nuisance to the group.

You will not hear me on the topic of kloma in this group.

Hope that gives peace of mind and brings a lot of joy to the democratic members of this group.

[4/17, 8:14 AM] pawan madan Dr:

[4/17, 8:15 AM] pawan madan Dr:

Hebber sir...

aisaa to kuch nahi...

aap kyu aisaa samjhe..

U have participated very rightly.

[4/17, 8:16 AM] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

You have taken it otherwise. I am not averse to your thought and ideation. I made a statement to conclude the discussion on Kloma. Really sorry, if my words have hurt you.

[4/17, 8:17 AM] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir:

हाँ आपकी बात पढ़कर रंगा ख़ुश

[4/17, 8:17 AM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

जय हो ,,,,

क्लोम देव नारद जी आपकी

[4/17, 8:18 AM] Janardan Hebbar Dr:

I have my respects for you sir. I am not angry or upset.

Now I get you point.

[4/17, 8:20 AM] Dr. D C Katoch sir: सममस्तु, सामान्यमस्तु।

[4/17, 8:21 AM] Janardan Hebbar Dr: Thank you

[4/17, 8:23 AM] Dr. Bharat Delhi: Right Sir

[4/17, 8:39 AM] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi:

*आज तक क्लोम पर जितना discussion हुआ उसका solution यही है।*

[4/17, 9:42 AM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

Video Link for newly invented organ....

https://youtu.be/NAOn-5rx5wg

[4/17, 9:46 AM] pawan madan Dr:

*Kloma .... a name given to an organ which is maintaining / controlling / regulating / managing karmas of udakvaha srotas*

*In this sense many organs function as Kloma at diffeternt times in different states*

This is similar to the name *tissue* or *hormone* which are havibg different anatomical basis but performing one important similar function.

Thanks Katoh sir Ji.

[4/17, 9:48 AM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

Anupama ji

It is udakvah srotas spread all over the body in the form of channals that can't be denied.

प्रत्यक्षे किं प्रमाणं ।

Mysentery in GIT is fluid regulator because here humans take fluids in the body and distributed all over the body. How can rt lung be a moola of udakvah srotas..? A place of gas exchange no fluid transportation...?

[4/17, 9:50 AM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

Video shows the invention of separate udakvah srotas.... (which now a validation)Distributed all over the body.

[4/17, 10:26 AM] pawan madan Dr: Wonderful...

[4/17, 11:12 AM] Dr Pradip Mohan Sharma:

क्लोम पर हुई हुई चर्चा निःसंदेह ही ज्ञान वर्धक होती है, लेकिन कभी किसी निष्कर्ष तक नही पंहुचती।

डॉ मदान के वक्तव्य बहुत तार्किक है।

[4/17, 11:23 AM] Dr Pradip Mohan Sharma:

एक मेडीकल फेक्ट ये है कि आधुनिक चिकित्सा शास्त्र में लगभग 2 वर्ष पूर्व तक mesentry को शरीर का अंग नही माना गया था बल्कि आधुनिक चिकित्सा में इसको tissues की एक continue layer की तरह treat किया गया।

लेकिन लगभग एक वर्ष पूर्व ही Gray's anatomy ने उसको अंग के तौर पर स्वीकार किया है, जबकि आचार्यो ने पंचदश कोष्ठ अंगो में चौथे स्थान पर क्लोम को अंग माना है (च शा ७/12)

अतः डॉ सुरेंद्र सोनी जी और डॉ मदान जी के कथनों को मिलाकर देखते है और Gray की एनाटोमी को भी सम्मलित करें तो क्लोम की गुत्थी सुलझती हुई प्रतीत होती है।

*********************************************************************

Above discussion held on 'Kaysampraday" a Famous WhatsApp-discussion-group of well known Vaidyas from all over the India.

Compiled & edited by

Dr.Surendra A. Soni

M.D.,PhD (KC)

Associate Professor

Dept. of Kaya-chikitsa

Govt. Ayurveda College

Vadodara Gujarat, India.

Email: surendraasoni@gmail.com

Mobile No. +91 9408441150

Comments

Dr.Ganesh KumarFriday, 4 May 2018 at 12:58:00 GMT+5:30
may be this is a new-sense / non sense to post after discussion is complete

still --
Kloma :- क्लोम कण्ठोरसो सन्धिः, हदयस्य पिपासा स्थानम्/ पिपासास्थानं / कण्ठोरसोः सन्धिरूपे स्थाने यत् परिशोषात् पिपासा भवति
Ref:- चक्रपाणि / गङ्गाधर च.सू.17/47,48, R.R.desai, G.N.sen/ Hariprapanna shastri
Paryaya -- Kaleyaka --कालेयक
Tila -तिल - अग्न्याशयात् उपरि तिलं क्लोम इति कथितं पिपासा स्थानम्। Ref:- शार्ङ्गधर प्रथम

This is from our text.
In vedanga karma in yajna like garudachaina there supposed to be ahuti of vapa and kloma
If Term tila indicates shape of kloma then it is gall bladder.

also vagus nerve impulse malfunction leads to hikka, rt. side of heart, also a kostanga, permanent through out life, gall bladder being a anatomical structure all these indicates gall bladder.
If I am not wrong all other signs and symptoms of disease can be seen in mal function of gall bladder./ vagus nerve.

Due to apta vachana and practical application indicates gall bladder as a main contender for kloma.

mesentry - not tila shaped

thymus not sustained
trachea - not tila shape also contunation from talu also not involved in hikka.
Hikka pitta shtana samudbhava

Hope not creating contraversy.
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Dr.Ganesh KumarFriday, 4 May 2018 at 22:03:00 GMT+5:30
क्लोम - हृदयस्य दक्षिण पार्श्वॆ उदर्यॆ जलाधारः Amarakosha manushya varga
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deepakSaturday, 20 June 2020 at 12:14:00 GMT+5:30
Poore discussion me se , klom- lisht me se gallbladder uplekhit karna cahiye(ganana nahi karna/ Hatadena cahiye .) kyonki -
gallbladderr removed by surgery t, pipasa ka gyan nahi hona chahiye.ease me pipasa to lagati hai. It mines gallbladder,klom- nahi manana cahiye.
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Dr Rupal ShahSunday, 15 October 2023 at 18:22:00 GMT+5:30
Considering all the above discussions and my personal view, I would like to state that Kloma can be understood as Gall Bladder.
* Kloma is a koshthanga and is situated in antaraddhi.
• Its utpatti is from kitta part of rakta and is a matrija avayava.
• It is below the hridaya, near the yakrita, and above the vrikka.
• It has jala tatva in it and is udakavaha srotomula and jalavahi siramoola.
• It is described as one of the kaphasthana.
• Tila, Tilakam, Kaliya, Kaliyakam, and Kaleyaka are synonyms, whereas their shape is like mamsapinda and tilakar.
• Kloma has mandal sandhi in it and is mandalakar.
• It is mentioned in karan and samprapti of Trishna and Jalodar and is the site location of Kshudrika hikka.
• Kloma vidraddhi shows Trishna, mukha-shosha, and gala-graha.
• It is concluded (inferred) that the Pittashaya / Gall bladder is Kloma.
After dissection, the structures that were to be considered, as Kloma said by various Acharyas, were correlated with all the criteria of Kloma.

After correlating the various structures, only Gall Bladder fulfilled most of the criteria.
The gall bladder is located below the Liver and on the right side of the body. While the Gall bladder is located in the fossa for the gall bladder on the inferior surface of the Liver, the only tip of the gall bladder is seen at the ninth intercostal space, which can be correlated to the Tila praman Kloma described by Acharyas.
The cystic duct emerges from the Gall Bladder and joins the hepatic ducts to produce the Common Bile Duct.
Cystic duct can be considered as Kloma nadi. It is described that there is a presence of Mandal sandhi in Kloma. Internally, there is a spiral course in the Cystic duct, which can be correlated with Mandala sandhi of Kloma nadi.
So Gall bladder with Cystic duct fulfills all the various criteria of Location, Shape, Size, Mandala sandhi present in Kloma described in Ayurvedic texts.

I need suggestions here, that as Dr Deepak mentioned that thirst still prevails after gall bladder is removed surgically. how to justify this.
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Kayachikitsa (Guj. Ayu. Univ., Jamnagar, Gujarat, India).

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WDS 52: Discussion on 'KLOM' by Dr. D.C. Katoch, Dr. Giriraj Sharma, Dr. Janardan Hebber, Dr. Ankur Sharma, Dr. Ram Shukla, Dr. Sidram Guled, Dr. Raghuram Bhatta and others.

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