WDS 53: 'Agni & Bhootagni Consideration' by Prof. Satyendra Narayan Ojha, Dr. M. Gopikrishna, Prof. Upendra Dixit, Prof. KSR Prasad, Prof. Ramakant Chulet, Dr. Rajnish Gadi, Dr. Vivek Savant, Prof. Mamata Bhagwat, Dr. Vinaya Bullakar and others.

[2/3, 11:28 PM] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

Are there any specific drugs enumerated for jatharagni, bhutagni and dhatwagni ? In text or by any experience clinically ?

[2/3, 11:31 PM] satyendra ojha sir: 

We are missing to find out such drugs.

[2/3, 11:32 PM] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

Can we elicit clinically ?

[2/3, 11:32 PM] M gopikrishnan Dr.: Any methods ?

[2/3, 11:32 PM] satyendra ojha sir: 

Once, we will be specific, then, only, we can manage muscular dystrophy like diseases.

[2/3, 11:33 PM] satyendra ojha sir: 

Basically, all agni are interconnected, so, it's not simple to distinct ..

[2/3, 11:34 PM] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

Similarly drugs used in cases of sangha ? In atipravruthi ? In vimargagamana?......

 Any common line of management in each clinical pathologies..?

[2/3, 11:34 PM] Prof. mamta bhagwat: 

There are some drugs which enhance metabolic rate like Chitraka /Agni

Can they be considered ?

[2/3, 11:35 PM] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

It's kosthagni ???? Or bhootagni......etc ???

[2/3, 11:35 PM] satyendra ojha sir: 

See, in jvara, doshāgni + jatharāgni + sakala deha chārini ushmā = increased ushmā in body ..

[2/3, 11:36 PM] M gopikrishnan Dr.:    Yes sir !

[2/3, 11:38 PM] satyendra ojha sir: 

In pitta āvrita samāna, āchārya Charak mentions decreased Agni, on this āchārya chakrapani comments that due to āvrita samāna, Agni uttejaka bhāva is decreased, therefore, agniupahata occurs. 

Prof. Gopikrishna Garu, it needs to elaborate...

[2/3, 11:39 PM] satyendra ojha sir: 

Bhūtāgni is yet to elaborate, nothing is done satisfactory....

[2/3, 11:40 PM] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

Yes sir, These points help us to plan pin point treatment protocol, in many clinical conditions.

[2/3, 11:41 PM] satyendra ojha sir: 

In hyperthyroidism, all sapta dhātvāgni is increased or only rasāgni ? Question comes in mind.

[2/3, 11:42 PM] satyendra ojha sir: 

Or there is increased samāna vāta which is stimulant of Agni...

[2/3, 11:43 PM] satyendra ojha sir: 

In hypothyroidism, Agni karma is decreased due to āvrita samān.... Or anything else ??

[2/3, 11:44 PM] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

Then is such conditions how to plan treatment ?

 Is it just vyadhi pratyanika chikitsa ????

[2/3, 11:45 PM] satyendra ojha sir: 

Prof. Gopikrishna Garu, without going through the understanding of pathophysiology of diseases, it's not possible to plan effective and prompt treatment tragedies..

[2/3, 11:46 PM] satyendra ojha sir: 

In most of conditions, vyādhi pratyanika chikitsā..

Once, we are using two or more gana shows that we are covering multiple aspects of disease..

Use of arogyavardhini vati in kushtha is not based on anshānsha kalpanā..

[2/3, 11:49 PM] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

That is the reason possibly why, most drugs used In Ayurveda are bahukalpam and bahugunam......

[2/3, 11:50 PM] M gopikrishnan Dr.: Multi faceted drug action.

[2/3, 11:50 PM] satyendra ojha sir: 

Definitely, āchārya Charak mentions 50 specific mahākashāya , eventhough, too many formulations in specific diseases are recommended..

[2/3, 11:51 PM] satyendra ojha sir: 

The use of punarnava and gokshuru in one combination shows that we are considering multiple factors.

[2/3, 11:54 PM] Upendr dixit Prof.: 

It's possible to understand about such drugs from Samhita, though Samhita Granth may not directly mention in these words. Some of the authoritative Vaidyas have mentioned such specific drugs. e. g. Vaidyaraj Phadke in his Dravya Guna book, Vaidyaraj Phanasalkar in his book on Rasayana and so on.

[2/3, 11:55 PM] Upendr dixit Prof.: 

Of course each drug may not be having a single action. They have multiple actions.

[2/3, 11:55 PM] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

There is general treatment protocol for kustha in general as kusthagna dravyas/yogas, again specific line of management for ekakusta, matsyashakala.......etc.

[2/3, 11:55 PM] satyendra ojha sir: 

Yes, Pandit ji, but, such Approach is not being effective while treating diseases like muscular dystrophy....

[2/3, 11:56 PM] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

Sir, Are they Marathi books ???

 Sorry, I am not aware of them.

[2/3, 11:57 PM] satyendra ojha sir: 

Yes, but in vātika kāsa, pittaja kāsa, etc., āchārya Charak is very specific..

[2/3, 11:57 PM] Upendr dixit Prof.: 

Phadke Shastri's book is in simple Sanskrit.

[2/3, 11:57 PM] satyendra ojha sir: 

Even in shotha chikitsa, he is very specific..

[2/3, 11:57 PM] M gopikrishnan Dr.: 

So kasagna is ? vataja, pittaja.....etc.

[2/3, 11:59 PM] satyendra ojha sir: 

Yes, definitely, in kāsa chikitsa, āchārya Charak follows anshānsha kalpanā based treatment.

[2/4, 12:02 AM] Upendr dixit Prof.: 

Once I compiled drugs acting on specific Dhatus from Bhavaprakash. I had taken only direct references. From that compilation also it was possible to understand drugs acting on specific Dhatvagni.

[2/4, 7:34 AM] Vd Goutam Jogad: 

Dhatu pachak yog mentioned in Jwar chikitsa can be considered as dhatwagnivardhaka drugs for special single dhatu.

Indrayavadi for ras dhatu

Patoladi for rakta

Amruta musta amalaki for asthi majja dhatu 

Like wise.....

[2/4, 8:22 AM] Prof. KSR Prasad Tachnoayurveda: 

Dear Gopikrishna ! 

We commonly understand the Deepana and pachana drugs acting on jatharagni as appetizers they are at the interaction and production of digestive secretions to help through vipaka

The drugs acting on bhutagni are mostly called as bioavailable drug  such as pippali and haridra etc bypass the digestion and reach directly to liver 

This is even achieved with rasaushadi and siblingual or rectal administration of medicine of route selection for altering bhutagni 

The crucial is dhatwagni .. to attain and alter we need the three groups of drugs acting on protein 

Globulin alternatives with certain elements serve this function to achieve. If we need to impose sukragni enhancement we use lactose (ksheera) and Zink etc 

A lot can be discussed... typing is tedious..

[2/4, 8:25 AM] satyendra ojha sir:

  nicely presented , please more highlights..

[2/4, 8:33 AM] Vd. vivek savant: 

Each and every drug has its own property 

If we see in kalpas and in dravyas and if we go through its falshruti we can find its affinity where it will act if it will act on dhatu mal 

Some drugs r paachan deepan and some drugs r bruhan 

For eg drugs in kustha are pachan deepan like arogyavardhini shilajeet vatakam (kautajadi shilajit) if we see thse drugs they r working on ras rakt mainly 

In shukra vikruti think ashwa which is vaat shleshm hari laghu which is paachan still bhruhan it acts on shukra mans med

Another example sitopladi churn some drugs r paachan kafaghn and sita is bhrun for prakrut kaf nirmeeti it works on ras rakt kaf dosh 

So we can find so many drugs work as deepan paachan quality in every dravya and every kalpa 

Its my personal opinion

[2/4, 8:34 AM] Vd. vivek savant: 

We should find out affinity of each and every drug and dravya.

[2/4, 11:36 AM] Prof. KSR Prasad Tachnoayurveda: 

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[04/02, 11:06 a.m.] ‪+91 94085 32014‬: 

1. Aahar Ras panch mhabhtaatmk so before the absorbed by intestinal villis.  it is Ann Ras.....    

Jatharaagni or Bhutaagni ,,,?

we should think about it which agni work here,,,, ?

2 Second stage of aahaar ras metabolism in  liver & cellular metabolism 

it conduct by 

Bhutaagni or Dhatvaagni ,,,?

2.  After the metabolism of Liver &  Cellular level 

it aahar ras become a dhatu ...

by Bhutaagni or Dhatvaagni ....

i think 

Jatharaagni is first form which conduct in GIT 

Bhutaagni second form which conduct in liver ....

Dhatvaagni is last form of Pachak Agani which form different different Dhatu by different different Dhatvaagni.....

[04/02, 11:33 a.m.] Technoayurveda KSRPrasad: 

Dr Giriraj you are on the track with few Missed links.... 

All Agni functions are conversion of vijateeya dravya to sajateeya dravya 

1. Pachakagni converts the gross ahara in to smaller particles I.e. ahara rasa

2. Bhutagni is converting vijateeya to sajateeya at elemental level and freely flowing

3. At dhatwagni level the components of sajateeya are converted as samana dhatu using the principle of  kalekapota.

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[2/4, 12:12 PM] Prof. KSR Prasad Tachnoayurveda: 

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[04/02, 12:03 p.m.] Dhananjay bairagi Nashik: 

I think there is mixing of two different pathies concepts....

Why u bring bhutagni at liver only...

Marich is said to work on dhatwagni..

[04/02, 12:11 p.m.] Technoayurveda KSRPrasad: 

Not necessary to involve liver if it is not there in Ayurveda 

But the phases of digestion when we see and the research compared the basic molecular conversion is at liver observed with bioavailable drugs like pippali bhringaraja haridra trikatu etc

[2/4, 12:23 PM] Prof. KSR Prasad Tachnoayurveda: simple sir

If the agni is intact choose the water extracts and Ama the other way wateralcohol extracts 

If Atyagni the lactosoluble alkaloid's

[2/4, 12:24 PM] ‪+91 90397 34273‬: thank you sir

[2/4, 1:32 PM] Prof. KSR Prasad Tachnoayurveda: As per my little thinking..

Any conversion in body is with the help of pitta..

[2/4, 1:33 PM] Prof. KSR Prasad Tachnoayurveda: 

Yes dr Dhanjaya sir

 pitta is of two types ...one is exothermic chemical reaction that elevates the body temperature and the second is endothermic in nature 

In ayurveda always we are bothreed for the first but the second type of pitta is also existing through its features and attributed to pittakshaya diseases as a matter of fact they are assessed only with heat as a factor

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[2/4, 10:20 PM] Upendr dixit Prof.: 

Bhutagni are contained in each and every Dravya, each and every particle, as per Ayurveda. Why people are so much obsessed with liver ? People want to put Bhutagni, Dhatvagni and what not in liver.

[2/4, 10:21 PM] Upendr dixit Prof.: 

Not a comment on someone specific.

[2/4, 10:23 PM] Prof. KSR Prasad Tachnoayurveda:

  obsession ayurveda !

[2/4, 11:43 PM] ‪+91 98851 62380‬:

 There is no particular sthana for Trayodashang Agnis except jataragni. But as I understood Bhutagni gives nourishment to indriya( not indriya adhishtanas) by converting the aharara Rasa to indriya dravya. Ref from C.Su. vividhasita peetiya. Sloka I will post tomorrow.

[2/4, 11:49 PM] Upendr dixit Prof.: 

भौमादयः पञ्चोष्माणः पार्थिवादिद्रव्यव्यवस्थिता जाठराग्निसन्धुक्षितबला अन्तरीयं द्रव्यं पचन्तः स्वान् स्वान् पार्थिवादीन् पूर्वपार्थिवगन्धत्वाद्यविलक्षणान् गुणान् निर्वर्तयन्ति

चक्रपाणि, 15.13

[2/5, 7:00 AM] Vd Vinaya Ballakur: 

Description on balance between dhatvagni and pachakamsas in Ashtanga hridaya is very apt. For understanding hypothyroidism and hyperthyroidism, it can give clues. Shall post reference later.

[2/5, 8:21 AM] ‪+91 98851 62380‬: 

Ushma is different from Agni. ushma is the result of Agni. Ushma is heat. Agni is fire.

[2/5, 8:28 AM] Dr. Rajaneesh Gadi: What is d difference ?

[2/5, 8:50 AM] Upendr dixit Prof.: 

The word Ushma is used as synonym for Agni in Samhitas at many places. By the way Agni in the human body is not in the form of fire.

[2/5, 9:01 AM] ‪+91 98220 32584‬: 

This means Bhootagnis are present in the food even before it is eaten.  The moment the food is eaten and it arrives at the seat of Jatharagni, Bhootagni is boosted by Jatharagni in such a way that the food is converted in favour of human body.

So before consumption, when food is outside the body,  some action of Bhootagnis, could still be going on, or is it in dormant form ?

[2/5, 9:04 AM] Upendr dixit Prof.:  You are absolutely right !

[2/5, 9:07 AM] Vd. Gori Shankar Ji: 

I have a doubt.  Whether all Dravyas are having BHOOTHAGNI ?

[2/5, 9:09 AM] Dr. Rajaneesh Gadi: 

Yes.. any matter above temperature of -273 celcius are having Agni..

 ie energy in d form of heat...

 Will correlate पंचमहाभूतसिद्धांत with genesis of universe, big bang theory..later in d day...

[2/5, 9:13 AM] Vd. Chandrakant Ji: 

Agni & fire cannot be synonym in Ayurvedic approach.

[2/5, 9:13 AM] Prof. KSR Prasad Tachnoayurveda: 

Agni in Ayurveda is functioning subject... it has different levels...

Jatharagni ... kayagni ... bhutagni ... dhatwagni ... kayagni amsha 

But no bhutagniamsha or dhatwagniamsha are said .. more over the agni  differentiates the pre and post materials and implication of Ama a major factor of disease many times misinterpreted to only agni 

A through comparative understanding is necessary to avoid Ayurveda quackery.

[2/5, 9:14 AM] Upendr dixit Prof.: 

Yes Sir. Every Dravya in the present universe is Panchabhautika. So they have Agni, Bhutagni.

[2/5, 9:14 AM] Prof. KSR Prasad Tachnoayurveda: 

The ushma is undoubtedly the transformation of heat.

[2/5, 9:15 AM] Prof. KSR Prasad Tachnoayurveda:

  as if every smolet carry a lighter with him.

[2/5, 9:17 AM] ‪+91 90397 34273‬: 

Sir, then bhutagni of processed, frozen and packed foods are tampered ?

[2/5, 9:17 AM] hrishikesh mhetre Prof.: 

 in 1995, entire thesis written by Upendra Sir on 5 mahaabhoota ... A very brilliant discussion and extensive study of all the contemporary theories of universe evolution ...

[2/5, 9:18 AM] Shastri BSRNL: 

That's why all the kaarya dravyas undergo change with time - indicates the presence of agni 

[2/5, 9:18 AM] Upendr dixit Prof.: 

My MD thesis was on Panchamahabhoota. For which I have collected around 9000 references. Also the concept of Srishti Utapatti (actually Srishti itself means Utpatti) and Panchamahabhoota is compared with latest modern concepts. My book on this is published from 'Publication scheme', Jaipur.

[2/5, 9:19 AM] Dr. Rajaneesh Gadi: 

साधु... Will be more than happy to read it sir...is it available in mumbai...

[2/5, 9:19 AM] mamta bhagwat Prof.: 

Very interesting. 

Means to say, Agni will be present even in the non living things too. 

The conversion in to its bioform or bodily form occurs happens when acted upon by the Agni present in the body of living being! 

So, all the dravya made up of panchamahabhoota will carry Agni undoubtedly. Right ?

[2/5, 9:20 AM] Upendr dixit Prof.: 

Yes the Bhootagni Mandya is done with this. Therefore the conversations take place at lower rate.

[2/5, 9:20 AM] Upendr dixit Prof.: 

Right. Bhootagni are present in the external world also.

[2/5, 9:21 AM] Dr. Rajaneesh Gadi: 

Not only कार्य ...all dravyas...change with time...its called as second law of thermodynamics.

[2/5, 9:21 AM] mamta bhagwat Prof.: 

Sir, Why specifically-273 Celsius ? Any particular theory behind ? 

Excuse me for not being aware of it

[2/5, 9:23 AM] Upendr dixit Prof.: 

Although Bhootagni in the human body will be special.

[2/5, 9:24 AM] Shastri BSRNL: 

All the visible - perceived dravyas are kaarya dravyas only sir 

[2/5, 9:25 AM] Dr. Rajaneesh Gadi: 

Its absolute zero temperature ...where all d movements in matter particles stop.. Actually there is no absolute zero temperature in known universe .. In d coldest of regions also its milllionth part celcius above absolute zero... This movement is energy ...which we ultimately call as heat... वायोरग्ने... वायुसे अग्नीका जन्म हुआ

[2/5, 9:26 AM] Yogesh Badale Vd.: 

Brilliant discussion !!

[2/5, 9:29 AM] Upendr dixit Prof.: 

I had delivered marathon lectures of 7.5 hours and 4.5 hours at Hubli on basic principles of Ayurveda. In that I have elaborated about Agni- Jatharagni- Bhootagni- Dhatvagni. I will ask some technical person how to separate the portion we want from the recording. Then it's possible to post it here. 

MD thesis of Vaidya Madhavilata Dixit was on concept of Dhatu and Dhatvagni wsr to Asthi Dhatu and Asthyagni.

[2/5, 9:29 AM] Vd Vinaya Ballakur: 

Everything transforms. No transformation without Agni. So all bhuta  have their own Agni. 

Vijateeya to sajateeya conversion is work of bhutagni inthe body.

[2/5, 9:31 AM] ‪+91 94225 92068‬: 

We can define  bhootagni but how can we define dhatvagni? That will be more applicable for us. 

What will be the basis of identifying dhatvagni or any dravya particularly acting on dhatvagni ??

[2/5, 9:31 AM] ‪+91 98851 62380‬: 

Everyday contains agnimahabhoota in different proportion but that is not Bhutagni. Bhutagni s are 5 present in human body. Literally not in the form of fire.

[2/5, 9:31 AM] ‪+91 98851 62380‬: everything

[2/5, 9:32 AM] Vd Vinaya Ballakur: 

If food is hot this transformation from vijateeya to sajateeya becomes easier. Refrigeration tampers with it surely.

[2/5, 9:34 AM] ‪+91 94225 92068‬: 

Bhutagni are of all five mahabhuta's., Hence five in number. And panchamahabhuta are universal phenomenon not only limited to our body only.

[2/5, 9:34 AM] Upendr dixit Prof. : Any reference.

[2/5, 9:36 AM] ‪+91 90397 34273‬: thank you sir

[2/5, 9:41 AM] Vd. vivek savant: 

Yes Rahul 

Yesterday i want to told d same thing that each and every partical has its own agni and if we discuss about kalpas according to their falshruti we can find out their affinity and action on dosh mal dhatu

Can we cinsider about sahanan of each dhatu and can think about d samyatwa of dhatwagni ?

Or

According to vyadhis sthansanshray of dhatu can we find out dhatwagni bal ?

[2/5, 9:44 AM] ‪+91 98851 62380‬: 

Why special nourishment explained for indriyas that too panchedriyas? Please enlighten me.

[2/5, 9:46 AM] ‪+91 98851 62380‬: 

If we understand this indriya poshana we can treat andhatva, badhira, mukatvam, etc

[2/5, 9:47 AM] Dr. Rajaneesh Gadi: 

Imagine if one ve proper eyes but there is no light... They will be rendered useless after some years...

[2/5, 9:48 AM] satyendra ojha sir: 

Very nice , Pandit Upendra ji..

Āchārya chakrapani on ch.chi.3/130 ; *svena iti doshoshmanā*; "Teneti jātharāgnyūshmanā". Dehoshmana iti *sakaladehachārinah prākritoshmanah*. Vātashleshmanostu yadyapi pittavat ushmā nāsti, tathā api tayoh *bhūtatvena ushmā * yo asti, sa iha grāhyah:; vaktavyam hi grahanyadhyāye - *bhaumāgneyavāyavyāh panchoshmanāh sanābhasāh* iti ... 

The relationship between Agni - jatharāgni - bhūtagni - dhātvāgni - and sakaladehachārinah prākritoshmanah is very crucial to create homeostasis ... Āchārya Upendra and Āchārya Rajaneesh are having very clinical applications based on basic principles of Ayurveda and modern science..

[2/5, 9:50 AM] Upendr dixit Prof.: 

[2/5, 9:57 AM] satyendra ojha sir: 

Yes, in this context, I will refer, ch.chi.28/203-4: Jada gadagada mūkatā are mentioned in prāna āvrita samāna, and treatment plan is Tatra sayāpanāh  chatushprayogāh snehāh shashyante..: Agni is kept in centre for rejuvenation of speech..

[2/5, 10:03 AM] ‪+91 94239 75874‬: 

When it was said that Milk used to flow out of the Cows of Brindavan, when Lord Krishna played the flute. People called it a silly belief. Now when the whites provide us the video, we are amazed.

[2/5, 10:10 AM] Ranjit Nimbalkar Prof.: 

अन्नस्य पक्ता पित्तं तु *पाचकाख्यं* पुरेरितम्

*दोषधातुमलादीनामूष्मा* इति आत्रेयशासनम्

Here Vagbhata calls दोषधातुमलादीनामूष्मा as Jatharagni...?? 
(i suppose)

How to differentiate Jatharagni and bhootagni then ?

[2/5, 10:12 AM] ‪+91 98220 32584‬: 

Dhanvantar sampradaya makes a peculiar distinction between Ushma and Agni.  That is why बाष्पोष्मा (ushma of Ashru- Shokaja Atisar), ushma of Vrana have slightly different meanings there.

[2/5, 10:15 AM] Prof. mamta bhagwat: 

I recall it now, thank you.

It's called Frozen temperature where metals also freeze.

[2/5, 10:22 AM] satyendra ojha sir: 

In this context , we should not forget the role of samān vāta , āchārya chakrapani on ch.chi.28/225 ; upaghātah tathā ushmanah iti atra pitten api āvrite samāne Agni uttejanā abhāvāt ushmana upaghāto geyah... 

I think , Āchārya upendra ji , please , post your study on Agni and it's clinical applications.. 

[2/5, 10:26 AM] Vd Vinaya Ballakur: 

Ushma is temperature or heat. A lakshana whereas Agni indicates the physiological state behind it.

[2/5, 10:40 AM] ‪+91 98819 07552‬:

 It will be blessing if we are able to get that audio sir.

[2/5, 10:43 AM] ‪+91 98819 07552‬: 

Posting a article by respected late Kolhatkar sir on bhautikagni kriya....From the latest published Gaurav Grantha of kolhatkar sir.

[2/5, 10:44 AM] satyendra ojha sir: 

Contribution of āchārya chakrapani; Āchārya charak mentions nashte agnau (ch.chi.3/109); nashte agnau iti itara jvara apekshayā adhikatayā nashte agnau iti arthah... (One should not confuse with complete loss of Agni)...

[2/5, 10:45 AM] satyendra ojha sir: 

Besides hypothermia, people can have heart attacks because of cold. No one freezes to death in the real world, at least while they are alive does the interior flesh actually freeze, unlike the euphemism. Sometimes in rare industrial or other situation like with liquid nitrogen, but the term freezing to death is in reality a cold related death, as a [cold] temperature induced​ heart attack or other ailments would qualify.

[2/5, 10:50 AM] satyendra ojha sir: 

Ushmā - pitta - Agni - ushmā relationship are well described in Samhitā...

[2/5, 10:50 AM] Vd Vinaya Ballakur: Ok sir

[2/5, 10:55 AM] Dr Akash Kembhavi: 

Studies have shown that the  temperature of the body is dependent upon the following factors as well - functional, cognitive state, nutritional status and levels of agitation and confusion - so, which is what we know that our concept of Agni and pitta are related to both bodily and higher mental functions and even spiritual growth.

[2/5, 10:59 AM] satyendra ojha sir: 

One very high standard comment by āchārya chakrapani (ch.chi.3/4); Dehendriyamanahtāpītyādi hetugarbham jvarapradhānatve visheshanam. *Kechit dehamātratāpino arbudādayah:, kechit manahtāpina eva atattvābhiniveshādayah:,   kechit indriyatāpina eva timirādayah : , Ayam tu tritayatāpī*

[2/5, 11:00 AM] Vd. Gori Shankar Ji: 

Agni present in dravya can be accepted. But is it the same Jataragni ?

[2/5, 11:49 AM] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir: 

As per panchakarma prakriya or siddhant 50% part of aagneya dravyas and 12.5 % part of jaleey vayavy aakashiya and Parthia dravyas are agney or Agni mahabhut that is to be considered as bhutagni present in every dravya.

[2/5, 11:55 AM] Upendr dixit Prof.: No it's Bhootagni.

[2/5, 12:02 PM] Vd. Gori Shankar Ji: 

I think we should have clear cut idea about Jataragni and BHOOTHAGNI and off course roopa guna and agni. The agni present in dravya is its guna as roopa.

[2/5, 12:08 PM] ‪+91 98814 98431‬: 

Please consider & guide 

" *Pittantargata Agni* .

If we remove *Agni*  (ushna) from *Pitta*, Sheet - Snigdha material called Pitta will be left behind.  (To which we can touch & thus we can call it as mass/ *Kapha*. Actually everything that we can touch is kapha, and Pitta is a meaningful term only when Agni is present in it. By removing Agni from it, it becomes kapha only.) 

So, Agni (energy) is Sheet- Snigdhantargata (fuel-mass) entity, to which Vayu gives own stimulus continuously, by giving 'Ahuti of itself '.

All together this assembly of sheet-snigdhantargata Agni along with normal Vayu, means 'Life' !!

Here we can *see* & *touch*  mass (kapha- ability of  Dharana/ also called Dhatu ). We can see & experience energy (Agni - ability to transform). But we can't see but can experience motion principle ( Vayu- ability to rule over all) .

Thus it is said "Shantegau Mriyate !" As without this entire assembly, 'life' is not possible.

And as we are discussing about various types of  agnis, though Agni is categorized under various names for easy understanding they all are same, but dravya used for deepana of each type of Agni will defer according to the material on which agni is seated. viz. particular srothus or particular dhatu.)

[2/5, 12:35 PM] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir: 

Mahabhut are present in the body in the form of body parts dosh dhatu mal etc.

[2/5, 12:55 PM] Upendr dixit Prof.: 

It depends on how we choose to describe. A table can be described as made up of wood. But someone may say no its made up of trunk of certain tree. Someone may say it's made up of molecules, atoms, sub atomic particles... All these descriptions are true.

[2/5, 1:00 PM] ‪+91 94226 47268‬: 

Is bhootagni is still present in dead body ?

[2/5, 1:05 PM] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir: 

Think on this point 

Charak says -

शरीरं हि गते तस्मिन् शून्यागारम् अचेतनम् 

पंचभूतावशेषत्वात् पंचत्वगतम् उच्यते ।

[2/5, 1:09 PM] Upendr dixit Prof.: 

Bhootagni are present in Chetana as well as Achetana Dravya. Of course the Bhootagni in Chetana Shareera will have specialised functions in the presence of Atma, which will not be observed in the dead body.

[2/5, 1:16 PM] ‪+91 94226 47268‬: 

Specialised functions will be absent.But as Panchmahabhutas are present in dead body also.Decomposition of the body may be due to bhutagni.This is what I think.

Pls.correct my concept.

[2/5, 1:26 PM] Vd. Chandrakant Ji: Agreed  mam !

[2/5, 1:31 PM] ‪+91 98688 23355‬: 

Yes mam...

even my thinking is... Bhutagni are present in dead body also.

[2/5, 1:35 PM] ‪+91 98688 23355‬:

 what i feel is all Rasayana dravya acts on Bhutangni.

[2/5, 1:37 PM] Upendr dixit Prof.: 

You are right. I said that they are present in Achetana Dravya also.

[2/5, 1:40 PM] ‪+91 98688 23355‬: 

As yesteday it was discussing about drugs acting on different agni.

[2/5, 1:45 PM] ‪+91 98688 23355‬: 

That too after Sodhana karma.

[2/5, 2:21 PM] AS Kulkarni Dr.: 

Bhutagnis are supposed to nourish svayam gunas. According to samanya vishesh siddhant there are there types viz. Dravya, guna and karma. So, jatharagni for karma, dhatwagnis for dravya and bhutagnis for guna, both samanya and vishesh states. 

[2/5, 2:23 PM] Prof. mamta bhagwat: 

Dhatwagni for dravya... How ? Can you elaborate little more ?

[2/5, 2:31 PM] AS Kulkarni Dr.: 

Dhatus are drushya and dravyabhuta. In ashray ashrayi sambandh.. 
तत्रास्थिनो स्थितो वायूः पित्तंतु स्वेद रक्तयो, श्लेष्मा शेषेशु। 
Doshas are karmanumeyi so if we think in this direction we can get some clues.

[2/5, 3:09 PM] ‪+91 98851 62380‬: 

Bhutagnis are 5. Nabhasaagni, vaayvagni, agneya Agni, jala Agni and Prithvi Agni. These 5 Agnis are present in human body. 

Sarvam dravyam paanchabhautikam. So every padartha in the sristi contains all the 5 maha bhutas. Swaushma of a particular dravya is the result of Agni maha bhuta of that dravya. But that ushma is not Bhutagni. This is what I understood. Guruvaryas correct me if I am wrong.

[2/5, 3:27 PM] ‪+91 80873 68745‬: 

भौमादयः पञ्चोष्माणः पार्थिवादिद्रव्यव्यवस्थिता जाठराग्निसन्धुक्षितबला अन्तरीयं द्रव्यं पचन्तः स्वान् स्वान् पार्थिवादीन् पूर्वपार्थिवगन्धत्वाद्यविलक्षणान् गुणान् निर्वर्तयन्ति। चक्र. च चि १५/१३

[2/5, 3:29 PM] Paresh Dange Vd.: 

Nice  inputs about agni.

[2/5, 3:41 PM] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir: 

If u will take as a supportive sutra, parthivagni pachan will result in only Gandhatvadi vilakshana panchbhautik gun ....rethink .... 

think at a time about shareer bahya  Agni mahabhut, & agnirev shareere pittantargatah ......agni mahabhut and its system in whole body.. agnirev shareere pittantargatah ... here leave the word pitta and use jatharagni..... and it's representation at dhatus in the form of dhatvagnies swa- sthanasthasyapi kayagneh anshah dhatushu sansthita ...

panchbhautik Swaroop of dhatu and dhatvagni,

panchbautik based dravya and its action on,

Panch bhitatmake dehe hyaharo panchbhautikah....

[2/5, 3:59 PM] Prof. mamta bhagwat: 

Sir, this speaks about ashraya ashrayi of dosha and dhatu. What clue we can get for Agni or dhatwagni in specific.

[2/5, 4:00 PM] ‪+91 80873 68745‬: Dnt get you

[2/5, 4:28 PM] ‪+91 94225 92068‬: 

Valid point. Needs to be addressed.

[2/5, 4:34 PM] ‪+91 94225 92068‬: 

If अग्नि is a शारीरभाव, it should be different from the तेजमहाभूत in all चेतन and अचेतन द्रव्य. 

Isn't it ??

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Above discussion held on 'Ayurveda Peetha"(initiated by Prof. S.N. Ojha) a Famous WhatsApp group of  well known Vaidyas from all over the India. 

Compiled & edited by

Dr.Surendra A. Soni

M.D.,PhD (KC)

Associate Professor

Dept. of Kaya-chikitsa

Govt. Ayurveda College

Vadodara Gujarat, India.

Email: surendraasoni@gmail.com

Mobile No. +91 9408441150