WhatsApp Discussion Series:15- Concept of 'Doshagni' (?) by Prof. K S R Prasad, Dr. Pawan Madaan, Dr. Jaiprakashram & Others.

[22/05 6:16 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

Wonderful discussions today.
🏻🏻

पित्त सर्वव्यापक है.
पर क्या यकरूत से ग्रह्णी तक के स्थान को पित्तवह स्रोतस कहना उचित है??

पित्तग्नि की मन्दता से क्या पित्त व्रिधि हो जाती है?

Pls guide...🏻

[22/05 6:17 PM] KSR Prasad Sir: 

Any classical statement regarding sir
A.H sloka about kayagniamsha to refer here.

[22/05 6:18 PM] Vd. jaiprakass ram: 

Definitely..!! But can you name 10 persons who have read and understood CHARAK, SUSHRUTA and VAGBHATTA as thoroughly as Dr Anupama has ..?  I see teachers MD in Samhita going in classrooms with translated books...!!

[22/05 6:18 PM] KSR Prasad Sir:

 Swastanasya kayagne amsha dhatushu samstita...
I have no comparision do by any means sir
My suggestion is teacher through study enhances the ideology
I read samhita ...
Can not say understood in one life time
Every time I read the same sloka new dimentions are expressive
Samhita gives direction
Contextual situational and so on
This happens with maturity of the science I believe
As we are exposed to practical aspects the ideology refined
The teacher cares to take us for a point where he is leaving
Then the journey is more farer to understand
 And complete
It does not mean we reach end point
Pangu pitta at grahani moves because of vata from its place
Sarva vyapi is asambaddha as the pitta is drava

[22/05 6:32 PM] pawan madan Dr:

 Prasad sir...

ये पाचकन्शा धातुअस्था तेषाम मान्द्यति तैक्षण्यातः व्रिधि क्ष्यश्च धातुनाम जायते.

Ref not remember...

[22/05 6:32 PM] KSR Prasad Sir:

Dosha takes the srotas of dhatu as vahaka
There by no specific doshavaha srotas are mentioned
Grossly to understand the dosha it self is difgicult
Acchapitta pachakapitta malaroopapitra are at grahani

[22/05 6:34 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

पित्ताश्यगतम पित्तम शुष्कम मारउतकोपतः
कुर्यात शूलधिकम घोरम पित्तशोष तद उचयते...

[22/05 6:35 PM] KSR Prasad Sir: 

Each function of the pitta are functional in synchronization with hormones and enzymes
Pawanji please give ref

Many times the shloka are contextual 

With out of the previous and after obeying meaning out of is rediculus.
May be pathabheda gives confusion.

[22/05 6:37 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

Okk sir

[22/05 6:40 PM] Haresh Soni Dr. Parul: 

Dhatvagni mandya is cause of dhatu vrudhi. Where is the concept of vatagni pittagni and shleshmagni?


[22/05 7:11 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

"Dhatvagni mandya is cause of dhatu vrudhi. Where is the concept of vatagni pittagni and shleshmagni?

Need to find this sir..."

[22/05 7:12 PM] Haresh Soni Dr. Parul:

This was the discussion in actual
That was my question. So its open for all experts to answer.

[22/05 7:14 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

Yes sir its your question.
I just repeated to emphasize..

[22/05 7:16 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

वायुग्नि......वात्वह स्रोतो मे स्थित उष्मा

पित्तग्नि.....पित्तवह स्रोतो मे स्थित उष्मा

कफग्नि.....कफवह स्रोतो मे स्थित उष्मा

वैद्य हरिदत्त शास्त्री जी के अनुसार..
🏻

[22/05 7:18 PM]  KSR Prasad Sir: 

Hareesh soniji ...

There were no doshavaha srotas..
The sloka referee for pitta
 Again to the doshavaha srotas are not reconnected but doshavaha sira are there.

[22/05 7:28 PM] Haresh Soni Dr. Parul: 

Wonderful discussions today.
🏻🏻

पित्त सर्वव्यापक है.
पर क्या यकरूत से ग्रह्णी तक के स्थान को पित्तवह स्रोतस कहना उचित है??

पित्तग्नि की मन्दता से क्या पित्त व्रिधि हो जाती है?

I started from here sirji....the first question by dr pawan was about pittagni.

[22/05 7:30 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

And about pittavah srotas..??

[22/05 7:31 PM] KSR Prasad Sir: 

There is nothing to thank
You became spokesperson now hareeshji
Srotomaya purusha have inunerable srotas but the functional classification is with 13
Ofcourse manovaha jnanavaha sanjavaha sthanyavaha artavavaha are mentioned
But no doshavaha....

[22/05 7:34 PM] Vd. jaiprakash ram: 

नहीं, पित्ताग्नि की मंदता से पित्तवृद्धि नहीं होगी। पित्ताग्नि की मंदता से सिर्फ पित्तक्षय होगा। अग्निमंदता से धातुवृद्धि (विकृत) का सिद्धान्त केवलधातुओं और उपधातुओं पर लागू होता है। जहाँ "पूर्वो धातु परं कुर्याद्" की बात लागू होती है।

[22/05 7:34 PM] KSR Prasad Sir: 

No doshagni even
Kayagni bhutagni dhatwagni kayagni amsha (cellular metabolism) are described along with special as Above.

[22/05 7:36 PM] Vd. Jaiprakashram: 

शरीर में जो जो भी चीजें हैं उनकी अपनी अपनी अग्नि है जो खाये हुए अन्नादि का तत् तत् स्वरुप विशेष में रूपांतरण करती है 

[22/05 7:36 PM] KSR Prasad Sir:

 Pitta mandya karana are based on ahara vihara but not on embeded pittagni
The rest of non functional are of individual cellular metabolic fire are described as kayagniamsha
We can attribute ... that the few % of kayagni amsha are responsible for individual dosha agni
But it is not correct
As the amoortha vata can not have agni
Drava pitta dispose the agni

[22/05 7:39 PM] Vd. jaiprkashram:

 Why incorrect ??!!

[22/05 7:40 PM]KSR Prasad Sir:

 Kleda kapha doesn't allow fire.

[22/05 7:40 PM] Vd. jaiprkashram: 

When there is Vaat-bhootagni... then y cant consider vaat dhoshaagni ?

[22/05 7:40 PM] KSR Prasad Sir:

 Dosha stana are also attributions
One statement can be given here is the dosha takes the help of bhotagni to get their nourishment from ahara
But it is not doshagni
Cats takes the akasha vaywagni to assimilate functional cars

[22/05 7:43 PM] Vd. jaiprkashram: 

ACTUALLY, mahabootagni is basis of all agnies (in non specified form), but when the mahabootas take specific shape n quality (like dhatus), the same bhootani is called dhatvaagni..

[22/05 7:44 PM] KSR Prasad Sir: 

Dhatwagni and kayagni are different then bhootagni

[22/05 7:45 PM] Vd. jaiprkashram:

 Actually not... as same H2O is in vapour form, water form and ice form..

[22/05 7:46 PM] KSR Prasad Sir: 

If you arefering badabanala ..the fire inside agni is not other than the own

[22/05 7:46 PM] Vd. jaiprkas ram:

 Its for simplification... but when everything is panchabhautik, everything should be having bhootaagni..
Vaat, pitta and Kapha are made of same mahabhootas... but in specific and dufferent proportion and combination... so r the dhatus and malas and everything

[22/05 7:49 PM] KSR Prasad Sir:

 
I did not see any word of doshagni and malagni

[22/05 7:55 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

Some interesting pages from the Book..
DEHDHATVAGNI VIGYAAN by Vaidy Haridatt Shastri ji

[22/05 8:01 PM] KSR Prasad Sir: 

Sirji. .
No contemporary translations when discussion is with ayurveda...
Recent authors have many explanations of irrelevant ....with due respects to the author's ... they need to establish the thought through shastra.

[22/05 8:09 PM] Dr Raghuram Banguluru: 

The Agni will behave differently on association of predominant dosha..
With Vata.. Vishamagni
With Pitta.. Teekshnagni
With Kapha.. Mandagni
These can be considered as dosha predominant Agni's..

The Pachana kriya will take place with synchronized Pachaka Pitta or Pachakagni, Samana Vata and Kledaka Kapha

[22/05 8:17 PM] Haresh Soni Dr. Parul: 

Right Dr. Raghuram...dosha dominance defines the level of agni in each individual. Prakriti, desha, vaya, kala etc are the other factors are to be considered. Pachan kriya initiates with kledana then pachan and then saman vata does the further proceedings.

[22/05 8:19 PM] Haresh Soni Dr. Parul: 

But still vatagni pittagni and kaphagni are hard to digest.

[22/05 8:31 PM] Dr Raghuram Banguluru: 

Yes Haresh Sir..
You are right.. The terms need to be given a tough thought..
While we hv so many Shastrokta Shabdas which are under the scanner.. It's a food to thoughts to debate about these terms

[22/05 8:33 PM] ayurmitra KSR Prasad Ay pith: 

Where is the word vatagni in shastra ?

[22/05 8:33 PM] Dr Raghuram Banguluru:

It's not there..
I was mentioning it's tough time debating these coined terms..

[22/05 8:34 PM] KSR Prasad Sir: 

Please do not attempt andhakanusara nyaya.

[22/05 8:36 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

He makes understand like this...

The ushmaa present in kaphapradesh when increased caused the shoshan of kapha so kapha vardhak dravyas are prescribed to cause there vilayan..

I request.......please *read these four pages again* then it wud be more fruitful to discuss.

I dont know this is right or wrong but qhen qouted by an esteemed आयुर्वेदज्ञ we can give a thaoght.
🏻🏻

[22/05 8:37 PM] KSR Prasad Sir:

100% disagreed to the author's thought

It is base less
Where is the question of discussion.

[22/05 8:38 PM] KSR Prasad Sir: 

Even pitta is not agni ...
Agnireva s hareere pittantargata ..

[22/05 8:39 PM] pawan madan Dr: Jee sir...🏻

[22/05 8:59 PM] Haresh Soni Dr. Parul:

 Sir, we all are lifetime scholars, learning process never ends. Everyday we open Samhita, read the same but come to new facts without damaging old facts. That's greatness of Ayurveda. That's y it is shashwat. Anaditva swabhava sansiddhatva and bhavaswabhava these three factors are always found on spot as mentioned in Samhita. And the discussion done in group is always beneficial. Its nullifies the doubts, it creates the doubts and queries but someone of us give some conclusion. That's what is most important about kaya  sampraday group. Thanks to all the members for enlightening Ayurveda.

[22/05 9:06 PM] KSR Prasad Sir: 

Yes sir
The digestion givesout the ahara rasa and that is processed by panchabhotagni and the byproducts of it are the precursors of dosha
As they are is bhoota form does not require any agni to assimilate or produce
They are joined by yadrucha and become the dosha
It is like hydrogen and oxygen do not require any fire to become water
The Disha used the dehoshma for joining the bhoota particles to become dosha

[22/05 9:08 PM] Haresh Soni Dr. Parul: 

Exactly, that's what avasthapaka is defining.

[22/05 9:08 PM] ayurmitra KSR Prasad Ay pith: 

Dosha used the .. pl read
Where is doshagni ?

[22/05 9:11 PM] Haresh Soni Dr. Parul: 

Doshagni word is not there. In any classic..... You are right sir...
[22/05 9:45 PM] shekhar singh MP: 

पित्त सर्वव्यापक है.
पर क्या यकरूत से ग्रह्णी तक के स्थान को पित्तवह स्रोतस कहना उचित है??

🏽🏽🏽🏽🏽

जहां तक मेरी अल्पमति में आता है, यकृत में बनने वाला पित्त रक्त का मल है, पित्त दोष नहीं। इसलिए common bile duct को पित्तवाहि स्रोतस मानने की कोई वजह नहीं है।
दूसरी बात दोषों को अमूर्त माना गया है, अमूर्त के वाहक भी अमूर्त ही होना चाहिए।

[22/05 9:50 PM] Dr Raghuram Banguluru: 

But Dr. Shekhar Sir..
There is Ranjaka Pitta also being formed in Yakrit..

Yakrit is a part of Raktavaha srotas and also Raktadhara kala..

Kala can be considered as manufacturing units of Pitta and Srotas the transporters..

Kindly Give your thoughts

[22/05 9:55 PM] shekhar singh MP: 

I Request all, please write your name in your whatsapp profile
यकृत रंजक पित्त का स्थान बताया गया है, न कि उत्पत्ति स्थान

[22/05 10:02 PM] KSR Prasad Sir: 

Kala is dhatwashantara maryada
Not a manufacturing unit

[22/05 10:03 PM] Dr Raghuram Banguluru:

 Accepted Sir..
But is Kala just anatomical?
Myself Dr. Raghuram from Bangalore Karnataka sir..@ Dr Shekhar

[22/05 10:19 PM] KSR Prasad Sir: 

The kala is in between dhatu and ashaya here in case of rakta dhatu and raktashaya i.e. yakrut it is cslled as mamsakhandam and asraya for mamsha and spleen to deferentiate the sthayee and asthayee rakta acts as a barier
It is a physical entity to mark the quality of tissue and it's transpotation to its place.

[22/05 10:21 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

Each function of the pitta are functional in synchronization with hormones and enzymes

Prasad sir....
Does these means enzymes and hormones function as pitta
or
pitta act through enjymes.and hormones ??

[22/05 10:23 PM] KSR Prasad Sir: 

Enzymes and hormones are not pitta
Pitts still high complex subject in ayurveda
For raw understanding of pitta we are taking the nomeclature of present.

[22/05 10:24 PM] pawan madan Dr: Jee...

[22/05 10:25 PM] KSR Prasad Sir: 

Medha buddhi is with sadhakapitta 
What hormones or enzymes are reflecting intelligence ?

[22/05 10:26 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

In one of the posts above....

It was pointed out that
...doshas are amoorta

And in another....
...doshas are panchbhautik 

[22/05 10:43 PM] KSR Prasad Sir: 

Vata is amurta
Vata is with vayu and akasha both are invinsible but existing.

[22/05 11:02 PM] shekhar singh MP:

 Panchmahabhoot are also not Moort,

Untill Panjikaran takes place.

[22/05 11:08 PM] KSR Prasad Sir: 

Small amendment....
Vata momentum 
Pitta reaction 
Kapha integrity
Catatonic goes to vata
Catabolic
Meatabolic to pitta and anabolic to kapha

[22/05 11:10 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi: 

[22/05 11:16 PM] KSR Prasad Sir: 

I recommend tridosha theory by dr vvs sastry
Digestion and metabolism and introduction to kayachikitsa by dwarakanatha.

[22/05 11:16 PM] pawan madan Dr:

 Pitta.....is always energy......??

Then how is the existance of paachak pitta ??
Prasaad sir......
Vaata......momentum......

[22/05 11:17 PM] KSR Prasad Sir: 

These 3 books if we understand almost we can understand what charaka etc wants to say
Yes sir
It is impulsive in form
Known its existence through its action only.

[22/05 11:18 PM] pawan madan Dr:

 Jee sir...

I have read all three.
Now reading DEHDHATWAGNI VIGYAAN

[22/05 11:19 PM] KSR Prasad Sir:

 I admire that you read it
Question is whether you understood the inbuilt message
I am a full student ....
Still some parts are difficult to follow at introduction to kayachikitsa..
I need to visit you for clarifications
Soon I will visit you ...
Dull student

[22/05 11:21 PM] pawan madan Dr:

 Ankur ji...

E....mc 2

Means mass energy coexist and always convertible into each other.

Doshas can be such entities that one dosha act as mass at one time or location and can act as energy at other time and location.

Keep in mind......I am not saying that they are mass or energy but they act as .....

Its like Quanta.........which is mass and energy at the same time, acc to the Quantum Physics.

[22/05 11:21 PM] shekhar singh MP: 

मदान सर, मैंने कहा, मैं ऐसे समझता हूँ।  बच्चों को समझाने के लिए।

[22/05 11:22 PM] KSR Prasad Sir: 

Shekharji
You are right intially it is ok
But they should not carry it as a take home message

[22/05 11:22 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

Jee sir....

But aise bataayenge to fir wohi un ka base ban jaayegaa na saari life ke liye.
Yahi to hamaare saath hotaa hai shuru se aur end tak takleef detaa hai.

[22/05 11:23 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi: 

These scientific terms  are only to understand concepts

[22/05 11:24 PM] KSR Prasad Sir:

 for understanding terms we should not use terms

[22/05 11:25 PM] shekhar singh MP: Yes Dr. Ankur

[22/05 11:25 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

 No person prior to getting admission in bams know about vaat.

One has to tell & explain in terms which student know better.

[22/05 11:25 PM] shekhar singh MP:

 Just to give students a break.

[22/05 11:25 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi: 

All students come from science side not from art side.

[22/05 11:26 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

Ek baar jo bataa diyaa jaata hai.....wohi students ke man me baith jaata hai....yahi to vajah hai ki students ayutveda ko nahi apnaate..

[22/05 11:26 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi: 

Initially they understand on behalf of scientific terms.

[22/05 11:28 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

Sir they come from science.

Ayurveda can be better understood if we understand physics.
🏻🏻

[22/05 11:28 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi: 

Velocity may be seen in neurons , musculo skeletals system cells bowel movements  uterine contractions etc.

[22/05 11:30 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi: 

Yes our rishi muni are very smart they have use scientific system at that time when no body of modern science know about nanotechnology , how to increase surface area of particular medicine molecules
How increase the performance of medicine by grinding with herbal extracts for 6-9 hrs for several days etc.

[22/05 11:32 PM] shekhar singh MP: 

Nanotechnology is there in Rasa shaashtra 

[22/05 11:32 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi: 

Yes sir u got point
Ras shastra itself a great science.
Thanks to Ras aacharya
Who invent this noble branch.

Jai nagarjun.
Magical ras aaushadhi.
Super fast acting Ayurveda medicine

[23/05 1:53 PM] Dr Surendra A. Soni:

 Regarding doshagni I agree with KSR Prasad Sir......
Reference quoted by pawan Sir of hindi teeka doesn't seem to be justified on literally as well as practically...
Human body is made up from 5 mahabhootas and clinically they ve been further concised/ categorized in three functional units vat pitta kapha and further all 7 Dhatus are also categorized as per doshaja and panchbhoutika dominancy...
When we talk about bhootagni or Dhatwagni .... concept of doshagni is already accounted within this perhaps this is the reason that All Acharyas didn't mention doshagni separately but it seems that some scope is there as it is the method of description (concised way or sootra roopa) in ayurveda where possibility  expansion is every where...

[23/05 2:03 PM] KSR Prasad Sir: 

surendra soniji
The dosha is formed with two bhoota which has agni in them
Thus no external or built in agni is required in the formation of bhoota
After the formation the Vruddhi and kshaya of the quantitative mesures depect  pathogenesis and health
So no doshagni is required and exists.

[23/05 2:20 PM] pawan madan Dr:

 Prasad sir...
The dosha is formed with two bhoot which has agni in them.

as stated by you.

Does this agni here means the energy between two bhoota which is binding them or something else ?

[23/05 2:23 PM] KSR Prasad Sir: 

Any reaction in chemistry either emit or absorb the head of endo or exogenic in origin
Here the agni /ushma is the source which is embeded in the dravya which is converting in to New product with bonding
Heat

[23/05 2:34 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

Right sir...
agree
Cant we not say this agni of the particular dosh as doshagni.??
This was the essence of.the description in the above reference.

Later I will try to give some more inputs
Thank.U sir

[23/05 2:53 PM] Katoch sir: 

Good hair-splitting of Doshagni is going on.     I am waiting for the logical conclusion from the discussants. Can't doshagni be the cumulative agni of the bhutas involved in the formation of that dosha ?

[23/05 2:56 PM] KSR Prasad Sir: 

Dineshji you are involving all bhoota .... yes because any dravya is panchabhootatmakam so the all bhota involvement predominantly the bhoota responsible for individual dosha
And it's agni are responsible for dosha sustanance and accumulation.

[23/05 2:59 PM] Katoch sir: 

Each dosha has predominance of two bhootas, which may be the jointly determinant of doshagni.

[23/05 3:14 PM] Dr Surendra A. Soni: 

Prasad Sir
Not going in higher philosophy or physics. Simply when Acharya has not mentioned the doshagni separately then what will be the utility of Doshagni if we find some reference.......?  We may focus collectively on curative aspect of Ayurveda.
�

[23/05 3:17 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

Dinesh sir....🏻🏻🏻

Vaatagni may be the ushma.required to form Vaat dosha involving its bhootas.
And lets say when this agni is extremely high, vaata dosha kshya cud be the result and when there is decrease in this agni there cud be more vaata dosha...

So a samayak amount of agni might be needed for the samayak physiological formation of that dosha.

Please advise...🏻🏻

[23/05 3:18 PM] KSR Prasad Sir: 

Acceptance is one part but finding reasoning for debugging is more important.

[23/05 3:18 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

Soni sir....I just quoted an ex for the utility yesterday.

Us par vichaar kiyaa jaa saktaa hai..🏻

[23/05 3:19 PM] Dr Surendra A. Soni: 

Please resend pawan Sir


[23/05 3:35 PM] pawan madan Dr:

 E.g
He makes understand like this...

The ushmaa present in kaphapradesh when increased caused the shoshan of kapha so kapha vardhak dravyas are prescribed to cause there vilayan..

I dont know this is right or wrong but qhen qouted by an esteemed आयुर्वेदज्ञ we can give a thaoght.
🏻🏻

[23/05 3:38 PM] Vd. jaiprkashram: 

No... why not rookshta produced in kafpradesha  do the same?
The work of usma is VILAYANA and rooksha is SHOSHANA..
Kaphavardhak dravya r used to increase Kapha and snigdha guna... not for vilayan.. its for VRIDDHI

[23/05 3:43 PM] Haresh Soni Dr. Parul: 

What is to be concluded? Agnis  are16 ?

[23/05 3:43 PM] Vd. jaiprkashram: 

Kapha vriddhikar dravya r used in khaphakshaya... kaphavilayan dravyas r used when the Kapha bcms for viscous and sticky
No... Agnis r innumerous...!! As strotasas r

[23/05 3:46 PM] Haresh Soni Dr. Parul: 

OK....right Dr. Jayprakashji....but involvement of vatagni etc is never mentioned in any samprapti of diseases. So what outcome is supposed to be the result of this discussion. Kindly guide

[23/05 3:48 PM] Vd. jaiprkashram: 

For eg. In jyotish, mostly only 9 grahas are used in calculation n predictions... but that doesn't mean that other stars n grahas do not exists or influence us... but, their effect is so negligible that can be ommitted in calculation...     likewise, Agnis are as many bhavvishesha in the body... but 13 r considered for medical interventions...

[23/05 3:48 PM] Katoch sir: 

Kshaye or Vriddhi of Ushma within dosha may change the character but not the volume/amount of dosha unless individual ingredients of dosha are increased or decreased. Intensity of guna proportionately affects dosh karma, not its volume/amount.

[23/05 3:49 PM] Vd. jaiprkashram: 

They may not be worth mentioning sir... but they do exists and play their role..

[23/05 3:51 PM] Haresh Soni Dr. Parul: 

Ok...what may be the difference of status of vatagni in samprapti of Vatavyadhi and Vatarakta.

[23/05 3:51 PM] Vd. jaiprkashram: 

When we say दोषधातुमल मूलं हि शरीरं, that includes ashaya, kala, dhamani, shira, sandhi, srotas, agni,.... everything

[23/05 3:51 PM] Dr Surendra A. Soni: 

E.g
He makes understand like this...

The ushmaa present in kaphapradesh

(possible because Urdhwa aamashaya is kapha sthan adho is pitta sthan)

when increased caused the shoshan of kapha so kapha vardhak dravyas are prescribed to cause there *vilayan..*
(*Vilayan* i m unable to understand this...! This is a seat of madhur avastha pak so Vilayan..? Undigestable.... )

I dont know this is right or wrong but qhen qouted by an esteemed आयुर्वेदज्ञ we can give a thaoght.
🏻🏻

I have given my thought in
( )Pawan Sir

[23/05 3:54 PM] Vd. jaiprkashram: 

Vataagni is responsible for producing vata, and vata is responsible for vaatvyadhi and vaatrakta...  when we do use vatvardhaka ahaar vihar, vaataagni produces more vaat... which produces rookshata... resulting in vaatvyaadhi... n so on

[23/05 3:56 PM] Dr Surendra A. Soni: 

J P Sir
Doshagni concept is not given by Acharya... it will be great help if you can guide one example....

[23/05 4:01 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

Soni sir...

Kaphasthaan also.includes urah pradesh also.
The upper part of the body is called Kapha pradesh, I suppose....

[23/05 4:01 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

Here by the terms vaatafni etc.......only means the ushma present in that particular entity.....dosha etc
And Soni sir...vilayan here implies the vilyan of the dooshit mala roop kapha in urah pradesh, I think so...

[23/05 4:03 PM] Vd. jaiprkashram: 

Sir, the whole existence is nothing but energy... each n every particle is made of panchamahabhoota, which itself r condensed form of energy... anything which is made up of mahabhootas must,by default, have their energy...  the Avyakta prakriti, when manifests, is given different names like MAHAT, AHANKAR, INDRIYA, MAHABHOOTA etc... The same energy menifests... so nothing can be without its own energy... when we eat and different elements of body r made out of it, it is due to their respective energy... otherwise, what will decide when the same ahararasa is to converted into skin, or rasa, or rakta or eyes or ears or any other ting ?

[23/05 4:03 PM] Dr Surendra A. Soni: 

Vat pitta kapha are sarvasharira chara.......

[23/05 4:04 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

Jee JP  sir...

🏻🏻🏻

Total agree with your thaoughts...
Yes soni sir......sarvsharirchara.......but still their resp places are mentioned to emphasize their actiin in those places..

[23/05 4:06 PM] Dr Surendra A. Soni: 

Pawanji
I think you are going in wrong direction....!

[23/05 4:07 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

Sir pls correct me.....
I am.always in wrong direction..
Need guidance....
🏻

[23/05 4:07 PM] Vd. jaiprkashram: 

But don't worry... every direction leads to the same ultimate...!!

[23/05 4:07 PM] Dr Surendra A. Soni: 

Vilayan karma is indicated for ghanibhoot condition... like Grathit shleshma.... pittashmari etc....!

[23/05 4:25 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

Resp Soni sir

विलयन ...... द्रवभाव

सु उ ५१/४९ पर डलहण

I just tried to recheck...🏻

Or here we can say kapha vilayan.

[23/05 4:38 PM] Dr Surendra A. Soni: 

Same I want to say... applicable to liquify the solid....
Resp pawan Sir
First you please clear that you are talking about physiology or pathology...?

[23/05 4:45 PM] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

According to my opinion we should not try to go beyond the aaptopadesha. Because these are actually in a concise form(sutrarupa) . There is need to understand them properly in practical point of view. 13 agnis are sufficient to understand our pathogenesis . We actually utilize the knowledge of one agni( jathoragni which act retaining within pachak pitta)in our clinical practice.

[23/05 4:46 PM] Dr Surendra A. Soni: 

[23/05 4:47 PM] Haresh Soni Dr. Parul: Exactly

[23/05 4:49 PM] Haresh Soni Dr. Parul: 

If there is any minute significance of doshagnis through which we can produce better clinical results in the patients then discussion is still open dr jayprakshji and dr madanji
After all we all are trying to enhance status of ayurveda practice and its social utility. So in that concern everything is welcome which is result oriented.

[23/05 4:55 PM] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

As i stated above we should not give much emphasis on commentators also, thay may wrong because they r not aaptavyakti. Most of them are theoritical person and written something on sanskrit based knowledge. If we find useful thing within their writing we can accept them. Same is applicable to Dalhana also.

[23/05 4:56 PM] pawan madan Dr:

 🏻🏻

Agni 13 hi maanya hain.
Ye base hai.

Ok let me take some time and if I find some utility I will come with solid points.

This is same as Aacharya says..
13 srotas
but asankhya srotas
asankhya vyaadhis
🏻
Anupam Mam...

If we find useful then ok otherwise not.
This statement doesnt look justified.

[23/05 4:58 PM] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU:

 but sir for alpabuddhi people like us that is sufficient.

[23/05 4:59 PM] Vd.jaiprkashram: 

"बहुद्रव श्लेष्मा" in Prameh and Vishmashanjanya Rajyakshma me satat adhik malabhoot Kapha ka nirmaan hona can be considered due to Kaphagnimaandya... but as other dhaatvaagnis depend on Kayagni, so the kaphagni also... and to handle kaphagni, we need to work through Jatharangni only... therefore, no separate mentioning of any doshagni... same for others who's agni is not mentioned.

[23/05 4:59 PM] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: Yes sir.

[23/05 4:59 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

To kya ham Bhel, Jatukarna, Haareeta ko aapta maan sakte hain.
Agar wo kah de to theek hai kyaa?
Ji ....JP sir...🏻🏻🏻

[23/05 5:00 PM] J K Pandey Dr. Lukhnau: 

Sorry if anyone is hurt..bt I agree with Haresh sir..whats the importance of doshagni ..in clinical practice..and if considering pachkagni dhatwgni bhutagni is not sufficient for treatment then bhutagni wont be of any help..every thing must be of clinical utility..being so much theoretical and baal ki khaal theory isnt going to help..nothing is perfect in the world n nothing is beyond critical analysis bt everything must be rational..I think its completely absurd to discus purely hypothetical thing ..
our classical texts r more than enough for ppl like us to derive knowledge from them..and going beyond that is uncalled for..
sorry if I sound rude.

[23/05 5:01 PM] Dr Surendra A. Soni: Perfect

[23/05 5:02 PM] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: U r right sir

[23/05 5:02 PM] Dr Surendra A. Soni: 

Sanjay Lungare Sir is online..
Bose !
Please guide about Doshagni.....

[23/05 5:03 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

I am too looking forward to Samjay sir....🏻

[23/05 5:05 PM] Vd. jaiprkashram: 

@ jk Pandey Sir,  u r right sir... and for the same reason, separate mentioning of Doshagni r avoided in Shashtra....  this discussion was just to justify this non mentioning...

[23/05 5:07 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

Only one jatharagni is imp because all ushma and agni depend on this, ....🏻🏻

[23/05 5:08 PM] Dr Surendra A. Soni: 

J P Sir
There is no extra formation of shleshma in Prameh....
That is because of nidana induldged...
Prabhoot shleshma nissaran Yakshma because of jatharagni and Dhatwagni mandya only...
As I understand....

[23/05 5:10 PM] Vd. jaiprkashram: 

Agnimandya does not only relate to quantity but to quality also...

[23/05 5:11 PM] Dr Surendra A. Soni: Agree...

[23/05 5:13 PM] Vd.jaiprkashram: 

And wherever Jatharangni mandya is there, dhoshagni and dhatvagnimandya is inevitable... this was the moral of whole discussion... so, if u say its due to jatharagni mandya, it applies to dodhagni or dhatvani mandya also

[23/05 5:15 PM] pawan madan Dr: 🏻🏻

[23/05 5:16 PM] Dr Surendra A. Soni: 

That I clarified In my first post...
JP Sir

[23/05 5:17 PM] Dr Surendra A. Soni:

 @1:53 pm this noon

[23/05 5:23 PM] Sanjay Lungareg Dr:

 🏻🏻🏻
अगर दोषाग्नि मानना है तो , मांस धातु से रक्त धातु बनता है ,उसका भी अलग अग्नि मानना पडेगा। पर यहां पर टीकाकारों ने परिवर्तन के लिए अग्नि की आवश्यकता नही मानी है।
धातुस्नेहपरम्परा परस्परोपसंस्तमब्धेति अन्योन्यमुपस्नेहेन सन्तर्पितेति यावत।
चक्रपाणि च चि १५/२०
इसी तरहा दोषों का पोषण धातु द्वारा होता है।
सु सू ४२ मे
रसों द्वारा दोषों की उत्पती बतलाई है । वहां पर गुणोद्वारा उत्पती बतलाई है ।
दोषप्रकोप भी दो तरहा के होते है, चयपूर्वक और अचयपूर्वक
यहां भी अग्नि की आवश्यकता नही बतलाई है । परिवर्तन से अगर पोषण है तो वहां अग्निविचार ठिक है क्योंकी
पाकः पचनं द्रव्यानां स्वरुप रसयोः परावर्ती
इसी कारण दोषों की अग्नियां नही बतलाई है ।
भिन्नमत का स्वागत है।

[23/05 5:25 PM] Dr Surendra A. Soni: Thanks for authentication with reference...!

[23/05 5:27 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

Sanjay sir...

Kya koi parivartan binaa ushmaa ke possible hai ?

[23/05 5:29 PM] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

Yes Pawan sir for clinical point of view knowledge of jatharagni is sufficient.

[23/05 5:31 PM] Haresh Soni Dr. Parul: 

According to vagbhat ushna virya is vat kapha shamak and shita virya is kapha prasadkara...kapha shamana word is not used.
That's y no parivartan without ushma....again point of discussion.

[23/05 5:34 PM] Sanjay Lungareg Dr: 

बहुत सारे परिवर्तन बिना उष्मा के ग्रंथो मे बतलाऐ है पर द्रव्य स्वरुप परिवर्तन और रस परिवर्तन बिना उष्मा संभव नही है ।

[23/05 5:34 PM] Anupma Patra AIMS AYU: 

Pawan sir !

The authenticity of availble bhela ,harita and ksharapani samhita is doubtful. Other wise they may comes under aapta according to my opinion.

[23/05 5:36 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

जी सर....
तो मान्स से रक्त परिवर्तन के लिये उष्मा चाहिये...?

[23/05 5:37 PM] Haresh Soni Dr. Parul: 

Mamsa to Rakta.....process is going in reverse....it should be rasa to rakta....

[23/05 5:38 PM] pawan madan Dr: आहार रूपि मान्स से..

[23/05 5:42 PM] Sanjay Lungareg Dr: 

च चि १५/२०
पर चक्रपाणि जी ने reverse पोषण पर प्रकाश डाला है, उसी को उन्होने धातुस्नेहपरम्परा कहा है ।
प्रतीलोम क्षय इसी बात का द्योतक है।

[23/05 11:19 PM] Vishal arora Pathankot Dr: 

मांस से रक्त....?

SAnjay sir

Sir, we can understand this concept with easily understable Glycogenesis and Glyconeogenesis.
Glucose is converted into the storable form glycogen.
And during fasting and low intake of glucose,  body convert that glycogen to glucose.

[23/05 11:20 PM] Vishal arora Pathankot Dr: 

@dr Surendra soni sir.

[23/05 11:23 PM] Haresh Soni Dr. Parul: 

There are four common active ingredients in mouse and rat poisons: long-acting anticoagulants, cholecalciferol, bromethalin, and phosphide rodenticides.

[23/05 11:29 PM] Dr Surendra A. Soni: 

Vishal Sir
Agree with modern interpretation...
Haresh Sir...
Gone through said Chakrapani teeka but that indicates faster parinaman of Dhatus from ras to shukra by prabhav of vrishya dravyas Only.....
Sanjay Bose..
Please guide.. mansaat rakta...?

[23/05 11:33 PM] Haresh Soni Dr. Parul: 

Right Sir...

*********************************************************************

Above discussion held on 'Kaysampraday" a Famous WhatsApp group  of  well known Vaidyas from all over the India. 

Compiled & edited by

Dr.Surendra A. Soni

M.D.,PhD (KC)

Associate Professor

Dept. of Kaya-chikitsa

Govt. Ayurveda College

Vadodara Gujarat, India.

EMAIL: surendraasoni@gmail.com

Mobile No. +91 9408441150