WDS 54: Consideration on 'Ashmari' (Renal-stone) by Dr. Pawan Madan, Dr. Bharat Padher, Dr. Ankur Sharma, Prof. Ramakant Sharma, Vd. Subhash Sharma, Vd. Pratibha Navani and others.

[4/6, 6:59 PM] Gajanand Chatuphale Vdo: 

I have one query

Whether praval panchamrut tablet can be prescribed for a patient suffering from Amlapitta but having recurrent tendency of renal calculi.

[4/6, 7:12 PM] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi: 

*Radish & ridged gourd are best PATHYA in renal calculi,recommend both of these & prescribe pravalpanchamrit & stay free*.

[4/6, 7:14 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni: 

Can be prescribed being alkaline. Praval has been used by charak in ashmari chikitsa.

Plenty of non calcium drugs available for amlapitta if pt. Is googler, use that.

[4/6, 7:15 PM] Gajanand Chatuphale Vdo: 

Thank you Soni sir and Sharma sir !

[4/6, 7:45 PM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr: 

How can every one Stay Free Dr Sharma with radish only.

[4/6, 7:45 PM] Dr. Prayag Jivani:

[4/6, 7:58 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

Better if you post shloka.

Dr. Prayag !

[4/6, 8:07 PM] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi: 

*radish tridosh nashak, mutral, ashmari,anaah, shula,arsha nashak, mridu virechak, vatanulomak & paachak*

[4/6, 8:09 PM] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi: 

 *ref. bhavprakash shaak varga*.

[4/6, 8:13 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni: 

Radish= मूली

In easy language.

[4/6, 10:04 PM] priyranjan tiwari Dr. : 

shilazeet also used in ashmari.

[4/6, 10:05 PM] Dr. Prayag Jivani:

[4/6, 10:07 PM] priy ranjan tiwari Dr.: 

in a family if water is responsible for ashmari then all the members of family should suffer from lithiasis but it doesnt happen only one member of family suffer from lithiasis.

[4/6, 10:07 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni: 

Thanks Dr Prayag.

Thanks you spared time.

[4/6, 10:10 PM] Dr Bhadresh Nayak, Surat: 

Agree sir

Better indication for pittaj ashmari

Burning micturition with blood it's best medicine along with sitsudha liguid

[4/6, 10:11 PM] Prayag Jivani Dr Surat: 

[4/6, 10:14 PM] Dr Harish Canada: 

I think its a wrong explanation. 

Instead of water there could be another cause of Urolithiasis. 

Modern science strongly believe that it is inherited disease, thats why many members of one family may be suffering.

[4/6, 10:20 PM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr: 

If you belive in modern medicine than in Price's text,  they stress on water only.

[4/6, 10:26 PM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr: 

Kidney itself has a mechanism if crystal is formed it immediately dissolves it if it is not able to dissolve it than drinking plenty of fluids dissolves it  and pushes it out

.

[4/6, 10:28 PM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr: 

Drinking plenty of fluids in all cases of either inherited or acquired cases of renal stone is the answer even medicine may be a placebo.

[4/6, 10:40 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi: 

There is lots of cause of nephrocalcinosis

~dehydration 

Less intake of water

Excessive Evaporation of body fluid in form of sweat

~~~hyperparathyroidism

Calcium withdrawal from bone and causing hypercalcemia

Which leads to recurring kidney stones

~~~~~~ high intake of alkali foods as cold drinks  

Milk alkali syndrome 

~~~~~ less intake of citrus fruits 

Aml ras pradhan dravya are highly effective in preventing calcium deposition related systematic disaeses.

[4/6, 10:51 PM] priy ranjan tiwari Dr.: ✔✔

[4/6, 10:51 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi:

 ~~ hyperuricmia 

Prolonged intake of alcohol, stale junk foods intake.

[4/6, 11:04 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

The most important cause of the formation of stones is *PUREESHAVAHA SROTODUSHTI*.

[4/6, 11:04 PM] Dr Harish Canada: 

Dr Ankur Ji,

Which Amal Ras Dravya in your experience is most effective ?

[4/6, 11:06 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma: 

Purishah Srotas Dusthi ,,,,,? 

plzz sir ..

[4/6, 11:09 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni: 

ग्रहो विण्मूत्रवातानां शूलाध्मानाश्मशर्कराः ॥२६॥

जङ्घोरुत्रिकपात्पृष्ठरोगशोषौ१ *गुदस्थिते* ।

[4/6, 11:10 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

Formation of mutra ----- in the Pureshvaha srotas ------ this mutra if not properly made, and/or contains substances like mala roop kapha an/or aama or other ashmari sanyojaka dravyas ---- will certaily lead to formation of ashmari ---- weather u drink much water or not, or weather any other cause present or not ---

[4/6, 11:10 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

Dr. Ankur & Ashwini Sir !

[4/6, 11:10 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma: 

Mode of action as per Modern Medicine ....?

[4/6, 11:12 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

All the fluids are absorbed from the large intestine and then evacuated from the kidney in the form of the urine ------.

[4/6, 11:19 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni: 

सुश्रुत ने मूत्रोत्पत्ति पक्वाशय में ही बताई है । आप तो 

रचनाविद हैं ।

[4/6, 11:21 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma:

 श्री मन 

उसका मोड ऑफ एक्शन तो बताइए ।

जहां इच्छा हो वहां आयुर्वेद 

जहाँ इच्छा हो वहां आधुनिक 

अगर मूत्र निर्माण आंत्र गत पुरीष वह स्रोतस से है तो मूत्र वह स्रोतः बताने की जरूरत क्या थी

 स्वेदवह स्रोतः नही बताया वैसे ही मूत्रवह पर भी आचार्य वक्तव्य नही देते आचार्य ! 

[4/6, 11:23 PM] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir: 

Friends be careful while dealing the Shastra.

This slok indicates and confirms symptoms of gudgatwat where the purpose is to explain vat gati, important for the point of view of chikitsa. 

Dr madan stated that most important cause of ashmari formation is purishvah srotodusti, which creates mutravah sroto sangatmak dusti in the form of ashmari . 

So remain clear. 

स्रोतांसि स्रोतांस्यैव धातव: धातून् एव प्रदूषयम्ति प्रदुष्टा:, तेषाम् सर्वेषामेव वातपित्तश्लेष्माण प्रदूषयितार: भवन्ति प्रदुष्टा:

it may be of two origin - 

puriishvah srotodustijanya ashmari and 

mutra vaha srotodustijanya ashmari. 

In such case interpretation regarding BASTI is important every time .

[4/6, 11:24 PM] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi: 

Ramakant Sir !

*too good explainaion*

[4/6, 11:24 PM] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Every cell produces three types of excretory products in form of Mutra, Purish and sweda by Rachanatmak, Gtyatmaka and parinamanatmak function of Kapha, Vayu and Pita respectively. If there is not proper evacuation of these cellular waste product by basti, Guda and tvak respectively and gets accumulated in body produce favorable platform for stone formation. So Anuloman of these three mala is the ultimate treatment of Asmari of any kind and any where.

[4/6, 11:25 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

[4/6, 11:25 PM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr: 

[4/6, 11:26 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni: 

मार्गदर्शन के लिए आभार चुलेट  गुरूजी ।

[4/6, 11:27 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni:

 नाभिपृष्ठकटीमुष्कगुदवङ्क्षणशेफसाम् । 

एकद्वारस्तनुत्वक्को मध्ये बस्तिरधोमुखः ।।१८।। 

बस्तिर्बस्तिशिरश्चैव पौरुषं वृषणौ गुदः । 

एकसम्बन्धिनो ह्येते गुदास्थिविवराश्रिताः ।।१९।। 

अलाब्वा इव रूपेण सिरास्नायुपरिग्रहः । 

मूत्राशयो मलाधारः प्राणायतनमुत्तमम् ।।२०।। 

पक्वाशयगतास्तत्र नाड्यो मूत्रवहास्तु याः । 

तर्पयन्ति सदा मूत्रं सरितः सागरं यथा ।।२१।। 

सूक्ष्मत्वान्नोपलभ्यन्ते मुखान्यासां सहस्रशः । 

नाडीभिरुपनीतस्य मूत्रस्यामाशयान्तरात् ।।२२।। 

जाग्रतः स्वपतश्चैव स निःस्यन्देन पूर्यते । 

आमुखात्सलिले न्यस्तः पार्श्वेभ्यः पूर्यते नवः ।।२३।। 

घटो यथा तथा विद्धि बस्तिर्मूत्रेण पूर्यते ।

सु अश्मरी निदान 3/18-23

[4/6, 11:28 PM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr: सटीक ।

[4/6, 11:28 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma: चिकित्सा सिद्धान्त ?

[4/6, 11:28 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

[4/6, 11:28 PM] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi: 

[4/6, 11:29 PM] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir: 

Pl recall विशोषयेत् बस्ति गतम् .....क्रमेण पित्तेषु इव रोचना गो ...अश्मरी सम्प्राप्ति ..here

[4/6, 11:29 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi: 

Bijora numbu ras 

Harish Sir

[4/6, 11:29 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma: 

जय हो आचार्यो आपकी 

[4/6, 11:30 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni: Dr. Bharat

[4/6, 11:31 PM] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Gomutra Haritaki is also very effective to expel out small sized renal calculi.

[4/6, 11:32 PM] pawan madan Dr: Ji....

[4/6, 11:32 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni: 

Dr. Giriraj Ji !

अपान नियमन

सारांश रूप में

[4/6, 11:33 PM] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

My experience while treatment of Asmari, water intake should be minimum and should be given 1/4 reduced Jal whenever good thirst. It helps to break down samprapti along with other medication.

[4/6, 11:33 PM] Dr Harish Canada: 

if used as Anupaan with Shweta Parpati.

Dr. Ankur !

[4/6, 11:34 PM] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir: 

बिजौरा नींबू 

अतुलनीय , अद्वितीय , अद्भुतपरिणाम कारी, यदा कदा अनुपलब्ध भी 

[4/6, 11:35 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi: 

One more and most important cause

Mutra vegavrodh

Voluntary 

Involuntary \iatrogenic 

Drug like dicyclomine , buscopan, atropine ,

Excessive Kasaya ras pradhan dravya intake.

[4/6, 11:35 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi: 

[4/6, 11:35 PM] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir: 

Explain how and why ? Dr. Ankur !

[4/6, 11:36 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni: 

Sneha is mainly useful to regulate apan vayu. I ve seen pts. Excessive water taking, but additionally suffering from bloating, indigestion flatulence etc due to excessive water.

[4/6, 11:37 PM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr: 

Your experience is always welcome 

[4/6, 11:39 PM] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

1/4 reduced Jala having deepan and Anuloman as well as basti shodhan property act on basti and do Anuloman of mala. While less water intake ( only on thirst) prevent from Agnimandhya and aam utpati. If aam is there sroto rodh will be there. Aam mal never be easily expelled out from body which ultimately get accumulated and produce stone.

[4/6, 11:40 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni: Perfect

[4/6, 11:40 PM] pawan madan Dr: seems practical....

[4/6, 11:40 PM] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

In most of the patients of ashmari ati ambu paan is a cause of Agni dusti and aam mal utpati which is primary pathology of ashmari.

[4/6, 11:42 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

Ati ambu paan has been seen the most impritant cause of agni dushti in practice ......

[4/6, 11:42 PM] Gajanand Chatuphale Vdo: 

[4/6, 11:42 PM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr: 

बोले तो पानी नही पीना चाहिए अश्मरी मे ?

[4/6, 11:42 PM] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir: 

Want to add one more word - dust atyambu pan.

[4/6, 11:42 PM] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

When I advise patients to drink less water in form of 1/4 reduced Jala, I have to do very hard efforts to convince patient but after one week patients tell us that sir your advise is really very useful and feels very nice in other gastric problems too.

[4/6, 11:43 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni: Applicable

[4/6, 11:43 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

[4/6, 11:44 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

वातपित्तकफैस्तिस्रश्चतुर्थी शुक्रजाऽपरा |

प्रायः श्लेष्माश्रयाः सर्वा अश्मर्यः स्युर्यमोपमाः ||१|

- MAADHAVA NIDAANA

  श्लेष्माश्रया इति श्लेष्मसमवायिकारणाः, शुक्रजां विना; तत्र शुक्रस्यैव समवायिकारणत्वात्| तथाच दृढबलः– “विशोषयेद्बस्तिगतं सशुक्रं” (च. चि. अ. २६) इत्यादि, एतच्च  सामान्योक्तमपि विशेषेण सम्बध्यते|

-SHRI KANTHADATT MADHUKOSH TEEKA

KAPHA DOSHA is the necessary cause of the ASHMARI.

[4/6, 11:44 PM] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Yes sir dusht-ambupaan is the reason for Agni dusti but any kind of ati ambu paan having opposite quality to Agni being taken without thirst can vitiate Agni.

[4/6, 11:45 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni: 

[4/6, 11:46 PM] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

अत्यम्बुपानान्नष्टेऽग्नौ मारुतः क्लोम्नि संस्थितः||४५

CH.chi.13/45

[4/6, 11:46 PM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi: 

Kaf dosha is due to jal and prithvi mahabhut

Then for ashmari formation

Why excessive jal is to be declared only cause

Why not prithvi mahabhut excess????

[4/6, 11:46 PM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr: 

कोई निरधारित सीमा है या नही पानी पीने की ?

[4/6, 11:47 PM] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Excessive Jala being cause of Agni dusti produce aam which is similar to Kapha.

[4/6, 11:47 PM] Prof. Ramakant Chulet Sir: 

Radhey Radhey

 Jay Sri Radhey

[4/6, 11:48 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni: 

तृप्ति पर्यन्त शरीर की आवश्यकता होने पर आहार काल के अतिरिक्त ।

[4/6, 11:48 PM] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Pyas lage tab 1/4 reduced Jala pyas shanti ho jaay itani matra me piye.

[4/6, 11:48 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

Not the excess jal --- dushta kleda yukta jala roop drava ---- which has already prithavi guna baahulaya.....

Dr. Ankur !

[4/6, 11:48 PM] Bharat Padhar Vd: Excellent..

[4/6, 11:48 PM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr: 

कोई अधिक जल पान कैसे करेगा ?

[4/6, 11:48 PM] pawan madan Dr: true

[4/6, 11:49 PM] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Bottel bharke paani pine ki kahi logo ko adat hoti hai evam bina pyas baar baar pani pine ki adat bhi ati ambupaan Hi hai.

[4/6, 11:49 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma: 

interstitium play important role  the formation of stone 

रसवह स्रोतस

पुरीष वह स्रोत 

कितना 

[4/6, 11:50 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni: 

डॉक्टर्स  के कहने पर ।

[4/6, 11:51 PM] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Absolutely true sir...fIr unko hamari bato pe visvas karane me bhi badi mahenat karani padati hai..ek bar hamare kahame par khud experience kararta hai patients for vohi dusare ko batata hai

[4/6, 11:51 PM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr: हम तो है ही perfect 

[4/6, 11:53 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni: True...

[4/6, 11:54 PM] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Interstitium me bhi rasa, mutra evm Purish and sweda ki upasthiti hai.

[4/6, 11:56 PM] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Unless and until we will not understand Ayurved Anatomy and physiology, we will be guided to plan our treatment as per modern medicine directions. Fundamental and applied knowledge of Ayurveda physiology and Anatomy can help to understand Ayurved pathology and  than pure Ayurved treatment.

[4/7, 12:07 AM] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi: 

*जल कितना पियें ????*

*चरक विमान २ में स्पष्ट है कि कुक्षि और आहार तीन भाग में बांट लें| एक भाग मूर्त solid, एक भाग द्रव liquids और एक भाग वातादि के लिये।जो इस बात का ध्यान रखता है वो मात्रा से कम या अधिक आहार भी लेगा तो उसे परिणाम अशुभ नही मिलेगा*

[4/7, 12:09 AM] Bharat Padhar Vd: Excellent

[4/7, 12:12 AM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr: 

Sharma Sir !

Wonderful analysis 

[4/7, 12:15 AM] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi: 

*रोगा: सर्वेऽपि मंदाग्नौ, सूत्रानुसार केवल जाठराग्नि ही नही धात्वाग्नि और भूताग्नि के विकृत होने के तल पर जैसे ही हम सोचने लगते है तो हमें स्वत: ही प्रश्नों के उत्तर मिलने लगते हैं। *

[4/7, 12:19 AM] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi:

 

*एसे लोगों का trade scecret पता है मुझे, बताता हूं किसी दिन।*

[4/7, 12:23 AM] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Increased water intake may help reduce the risk of recurrence of kidney stones but more studies are needed

Kidney stones (also known as calculi) are masses of crystals and protein and are common causes of urinary tract obstruction in adults. For a long time, increased water intake has been the main preventive measure for the disease and its recurrence. In this review only one study was found that looked at the effect of increase water intake on recurrence and time to recurrence. Increased water intake decreased the chance of recurrence and increased the time to recurrence. Further studies are needed.

Authors' conclusions: 

The evidence from only one study indicates that increased water intake reduces the risk of recurrence of urinary stones and prolongs the average interval for recurrences. However further research is required. Due to the lack of appropriate RCTs, no conclusions can be drawn on increased water intake for the primary and secondary prevention of urinary stones.

[4/7, 12:26 AM] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Even In modern medicines, excessive water is not believed as a gold standard for prevention of renal stone. The review of the research on this topic suggest that more research is required to establish its efficacy.

[4/7, 12:27 AM] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

For more detail visit http://www.cochrane.org/CD004292/RENAL_increased-water-intake-may-help-reduce-the-risk-of-recurrence-of-kidney-stones-but-more-studies-are-needed

[4/7, 12:27 AM] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Still research is in progress not at conclusion.

[4/7, 12:40 AM] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi: 

*आम की उत्पत्ति में केवल आहार ही नही, काम क्रोध लोभ मोह ईर्ष्या लज्जा शोक अभिमान भय भी आम दोष को उत्पन्न करता है।*

*अपने practice में हर दिन ऐसे अनेक रोगी मिलते है जो हैं तो बहुत सात्विक और नियम से रहने वाले पर पीड़ित है अनेक प्रकार के आम दोष जन्य विकारों से।*

*allopathic में जब उन्हे anti dep. medicines दी जाती हैं तो परेशान हो कर आयुर्वेद की तरफ आते है क्योंकि उनका मूल कारण मानसिक है ... देखें चरक में कितना सटीक वर्णन मिलता है एसे रोगियों के लिये *

[4/7, 12:45 AM] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi: 

*इस बात को लिखने का संदर्भ ये है कि आम दोष की चिकित्सा केवल औषधियों से ना करें, रोगी के मन की चिकित्सा उस से पहले करें*

[4/7, 12:47 AM] Dr Harish Canada: Superb !

[4/7, 12:48 AM] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi: 

[4/7, 1:02 AM] Kapil kapoor: 

संहिताओं में अश्मरी से वस्तिगत अश्मरी का ही अभिप्राय है। 

वृक्क का उल्लेख नहीं है।

क्या कारण है ? 

वृक्काश्मरी में स्थानानुरोध से गुल्म चिकित्सा करना श्रेयस्कर नहीं रहेगा क्या ?

[4/7, 5:12 AM] Sanjay Chhajed Dr. 

Mumbai: Excellent Ramakant sir !

can you please elaborate the clinical variation of both ashmaries? & sop for their management

[4/7, 8:13 AM] Dr Giriraj Sharma: 

सोनी सर  !

पक्वाशय से मूत्र निर्माण प्रक्रिया का मोड़ ऑफ एक्शन आधुनिक मतानुसार बता दीजिए । आधुनिक रेफेरेंस के साथ ,,,,,

[4/7, 8:17 AM] Dr. Darshan Parmar: 

[4/7, 8:18 AM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi: 

In brief 

Most of the water is absorbed through colon 

(pakwashya) in intestine , which through blood 

Circulate into renal arteries (glomerular apparatus ). Required 

Water is withdrawn for  urine formation.

[4/7, 8:23 AM] Dr. Chaitaali : 

May be pakwashya is indicated for urine formation bcz of absorption of urobilinogen from intestine.

[4/7, 8:30 AM] Dr Giriraj Sharma: 

आधुनिक मतानुसार अगर कोई एविडेन्स हो तो मूत्र निर्माण का आंत्र में तो ref बताईये ।

हम सब सिर्फ को- रिलेटर बन हुए है उसमें भी अलग को- रिलेशन करते है कोई रिसर्च भी करेंगे ।

कोई नया रोग , नई रिसर्च , नई थेरेपी, नया लाइन ऑफ ट्रीटमेंट तुरन्त इसे को- रिलेट कर लेते है ।

आचार्यो ने एक शब्द प्रभाव क्या दे दिया ।  बस उसी प्रभाव से जब मोड़ ऑफ एक्शन निर्धारित कर देते है ।

[4/7, 8:46 AM] Dr Giriraj Sharma: 

ऐसा नही है कि मेरी आयर्वेद सिद्धान्तों में श्रद्धा नही है । आयुर्वेद पर पतली गली से निकलकर सिद्धान्त प्रतिपादित करने में विश्वास नही है ।

जिसे समझ लिया आधुनिक विज्ञान व आयुर्वेद मतानुसार वह ही ठीक है ऐसा नही , मुझे नही समझ आ रहा इसका मतलब ये नही कि वो गलत है । 

वो सही है पर आज के पैरामीटर के अनुसार उसका मूल्यांकन तो हो ,,,, नही है तो रिसर्च का विषय है पर असत्य कदापि कोई भी सिद्धान्त नही है ।

जय आयर्वेद

[4/7, 8:51 AM] Ankur Sharma Dr Delhi: Good points

[4/7, 8:51 AM] Prof. KSR Prasad Tachnoayurveda: 

They are pretended right as they show the so called paranetric evidences created by them for their accordance... if the parameters set are standard why not they prove our system explained theories .. all the parameters set are only work for their theory and concepts but not for other systems .. 

The best part is to create convince the generated parameters of ayurveda ... but the issue is our own people deny the proposed parameters without examining them thinking that the counterparts are correct ... it looks padosi sabhi chesome adhik ...

[4/7, 9:06 AM] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

In process of Mutra Nirmaan, the word Pakwashya is very important and confuses so many students to understand Ayurved Physiology. The main point I would like to high light is that we are co relating Pakwashya with only large intestine which is big hurdle to understand Mutra Nirmaan.  Otherwise modern and Ayurved Physiology is almost same in reference to Mutra nirnan..will discuss in detail after being free from college.

[4/7, 9:09 AM] Dr Giriraj Sharma: 

what is  Aamashta Pakcashaya as per Anatomy .....

हम इस प्रश्न पर  एकमत नही है ,,,,,

[4/7, 9:09 AM] Prof. KSR Prasad Tachnoayurveda: 

Truly said

Pakwashaya purishadharakala vrukka basti are sequentially responsive for assimilation of mutra with ambuvaha and mutravaha srotas.

[4/7, 9:09 AM] Dr Giriraj Sharma: मूत्रवहः स्रोतः में भी वृक्क

[4/7, 9:14 AM] Vd Pratibha Navani: 

*Some rules of Renal stone formation* which shows how gut is responsible in calculus formation

 *There are four types of kidney stones,*

 Calcium stones

These are the most common kinds of kidney stones, and they include calcium oxalate and calcium phosphate varieties. When concentrations of calcium and oxalate (produced by your liver and also often found in nuts and nut products, peanuts, spinach, rhubarb, and wheat bran) and phosphorus (found in foods like beans, meat, and milk and compounds like disodium phosphate) build up in the kidney, they can form crystals that grow over time, Seth Bechis, M.D., assistant professor of urology at UC San Diego Health Comprehensive Kidney Stone Center, tells SELF.

This doesn't mean you should avoid calcium for fear that it'll lead to one of these—it can actually help prevent them. "Calcium binds [with oxalate and phosphate] in the stomach and small intestine and prevents them from being absorbed and ultimately directed to the kidneys," Dr. Bechis says. Avoiding calcium actually raises your risk of kidney stones by increasing the concentration of these compounds in your pee, he explains. But, interestingly, calcium supplements have been tied to an increased risk of kidney stones, so aim to get your calcium through your diet.

 *Uric acid stones* 

These can happen when your micturate has too much acid in it. "Eating a lot of fish, shellfish, and meat—especially organ meat—may increase uric acid in urine," according to the NIDDK.

 *Struvite stones* 

These typically form after a urinary tract infection, Dr. Bechis says. "Certain bacteria in the urine produce ammonia as a breakdown product, which increases the concentration of ammonia in the urine as well as the pH, leading to the formation of struvite stones," he explains. According to the NIDDK, they can strike suddenly and grow quickly.

Cystine stones

This kind of kidney stone is uncommon and related to cystinuria, which is an inherited, lifelong disorder. It happens when the amino acid cystine leaks through your kidneys into your urine, potentially forming stones.

 *There are a few risk factors that can make you more likely to get kidney stones.

* 

One is recurrent urinary tract infections, due to the higher ammonia and pH they can cause in your pee, Dr. Bechis says.

Another is chronic inflammation of the bowel, which you can experience with a condition like ulcerative colitis. Chronic bowel inflammation can lead to diarrhea, which can dehydrate you. Dehydration makes you pee less and also makes what urine you do have more concentrated, which can contribute to stone formation, Dr. Bechis explains. Chronic bowel inflammation also makes it harder for your GI system to absorb various substances that bind with different minerals and salts to prevent stones, like fatty acids and the citric acid citrate, Dr. Bechis says.

Obesity is an another kidney stone risk factor, although the exact mechanism isn't totally clear. "Obesity is associated with insulin resistance [when your body doesn't respond normally to the insulin hormone meant to control your blood sugar levels], elevated levels of insulin in the bloodstream, and acidic blood pH," Dr. Bechis says, explaining that this may cause increased amounts of calcium to be excreted into your urine. Also, eating too much salt and animal protein, which can contribute to obesity, can also increase the risk of stone formation, he adds.

Diabetes can also promote kidney stones. This is in part due to the association between type 2 diabetes and obesity and insulin resistance, and in part because people with diabetes may have higher levels of uric acid in their urine.

So most of the urolith are due to some or the other  related to GIT.

[4/7, 9:14 AM] Vd Pratibha Navani:

 https://www.self.com/story/kidney-stone-signs

[4/7, 9:15 AM] Dr Giriraj Sharma: 

हम सिद्धान्त जनित आयुर्वेद नही युक्ति जनित आयुर्वेद पढ़ रहे है अपना रहे है  ।

सिद्धान्त औऱ दर्शन को एक टूल के रूप में प्रयोग कर रहे है ।

जहां जो सेट हो जाये वो ठीक नही हुआ तो दूसरा तीसरा टूल ,,,,,

हम युक्ति आश्रय बन गए है ।

[4/7, 9:19 AM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr: 

[4/7, 9:19 AM] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey: 

सिद्धांतविहीन युक्ति को युक्ति नहीं जुगाड़ कह सकते हैं। दोनों में फर्क तर्क और तुक्का का है ।

[4/7, 9:20 AM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr: Absolutely right

[4/7, 9:20 AM] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:

 धन्यवाद आचार्य

[4/7, 9:27 AM] Dr Giriraj Sharma: 

calcium stone buildup kidneys

live

[4/7, 9:57 AM] Dr Divyesh Desai: 

Dr.Y.G.Joshi Pune also told Mutra Utpati in Pakvashay But here Pakva means after complete of trividh Vipakavastha  and than Sarbhag & Kit bhag produced that's why Mutra utpati basic organ are Pakvashay and Kidney only filter Urine and expelling outside via Bladder. So in Ashmari Apanvayu dushti is must and Purishvah strotas are there..Same principle use in treatment of Kidney failure and sir give Goat intestine soup for KIDNEYS Failures patients..Only and only Sphatika shodhit water and chaturthavans shesh boil water helpful for Stone and Goxur Punarnava siddh ghrutpan before half hour of meal..

[4/7, 10:06 AM] Dr Harsh Kishore: 

When we ask patient to drink 1/4 reduced jal,  the first reply from patient comes that...  We have R.O. installed in our home as well as in office... Then what is the need of boiling water.... It becomes very difficult to make patient understand the benefits of 1/4 reduced water... Please give your valuable opinion regarding R.O. water using now a days.

[4/7, 10:08 AM] Dr Harsh Kishore: 

Whether using R.O. water is good or not. And one more thing I have noticed that there are some areas where renal calculi patients are more in number... Allopathic doctors opions that it is because of the water present in that area. Please throw some light of your guidance in that area....

[4/7, 10:15 AM] Vd Pratibha Navani: 

[4/7, 10:20 AM] J K Pandey Dr. Lukhnau: 

[4/7, 10:26 AM] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

Exactly sir...this is the first response and question from every patient, when we tell about 1/4 reduced Jala.

I explain patients that RO purifies water but still it is not in easily diagastable form, when you boil water than it become very easy to get changes and increase the power of metabolism as well as it becomes more potential to remove excreatory product from body.

I give them example that hot water most preferred to wash dirty clothes because it easily removed the dirtiness as compared to cold water.

If patient get satisfied by this story than its sufficient, otherwise I have to give some more examples as patients educational status and profession.

[4/7, 10:29 AM] Dr Harsh Kishore: 

[4/7, 10:29 AM] Bharat Padhar Vd: 

To replace RO water, we can drink 1/4 reduced Jala, filtered with 4 folded cotton cloth.

[4/7, 12:25 PM] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey: 

Among the producers of soothing effect/refreshing effect, water is the best.

In other words, water is best to generate refreshing or soothing effect.

[4/7, 12:27 PM] Dr Harsh Kishore: 

Sir kindly please make me understand this soothing effect, and what about the caffeine containing energy drinks now a days people are using ?

[4/7, 12:35 PM] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey: 

Very difficult to express in words, but I will make an attempt.

Assume that someone is under duress or stress or uncomfortable, the most immediate effect that a glass of water brings to him or her is soothing.

Assume someone has burnt fingers. No other द्रव्य or अद्रव्य will give that person more comfort than putting fingers below the running water.

Also, in the event of sudden anxiety (for so many reason, say for example loss of beloved one) nothing would sooth or comfort psychosomatically than a glass of water water.

Why is it so?

That can be understood from the perspective of Samanya and Vishesha.

[4/7, 1:21 PM] Dr. Venkat Joshi UK: 

उदक माश्वासकरा नाम....

Adi and anta swasa 

Means beginning विष्णुपदामृतं.....goes in breathtaking and 

End making of प्राण from it

Meaning Prana....,is the purity of vata

Where as A pana is impurity 

What is that combination of mixture of gases 

Make balance of breathing?

Pure oxygen? Or mono oxide is toxic for tissue. 

[4/7, 1:22 PM] Dr. Venkat Joshi UK: 

Water channels 10 Anjali circulation makes better formation of prana 'from breathing process. 

[4/7, 1:23 PM] Dr. Venkat Joshi UK: 

According to Sharanga dhara samhita

In commentary it. Clearly indicates Urban areas has less Prana

And mountains or natural woods has more Prana.

[4/7, 1:24 PM] Dr. Venkat Joshi UK: 

So the Heart  in Ayurveda is dual.

The one glows like Neevara shuka vat tanvi....from physiological heart to 

Reflecting energy (heat and light or satwa) flowing to शिर: स्थाल्वंतर गत

Mind

 In both the places the breathed air gets controlled by spiritual fire and mental fire

Like hot is Agni

Mind is moon Or Soma 

The transformation of that energy is nothing but pure Prana.

[4/7, 1:29 PM] Dr. Venkat Joshi UK: 

How much do we make? Prana by pranayama or practice 

Enable us less amount of Prana made from pachaka Agni or the fire away from centre or Hridaya.

[4/7, 1:29 PM] Ashwini Kumar Sood Dr: अन्तर्ज्ञानम् अति उत्तम

[4/7, 1:30 PM] Dr. Venkat Joshi UK: 

Example 

Take pure camphor 

Which essence in air with burning as firy is Tejas with Prana 

In contrast to evaporating solid smelling gandha or pure Prana vata

In both the form the Prana is pure and essence out in gaseous form 

Without any impurities

Unlike A pana which is what we use contaminated chemicals napthalin burning 

Give smoke

I.e. Symbolic difference of Prana in vata

And apana has less Prana

We make Prana energy or pure vata by digestive or nutrition also and as well can make through breathing

Example the Yogis under surveillance without eating controlled all physiological process 

We can observe the urine bladder filled is re absorbed in to system

[4/7, 2:24 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni: 

आचार्य गिरिराज जी !

अप्रत्यक्ष रूप से आपको समझना पड़ेगा जैसे तीव्र जलाल्पता की स्थिति में 'वृक्क निपात' ! इसे आप क्या कहेंगे ? रोगी तो जीवित है और आन्त्र विकार से वृक्क निपात कैसे हो गया ??

यकृत विकारों में भी ऐसा ही होता है जबकि उक्त दोनों स्थितियों में मूत्रवाह स्रोतस् अदुष्ट है ।

आधुनिक और आयुर्वेद की वर्णन की पारिस्थितिक भिन्नता, काल और भाषा शैली के अंतर को आत्मसात करते हुए विवेचनात्मक बुद्धि प्रयोग से कुछ ग्रहण हो सकेगा ।।

[4/7, 2:26 PM] Vd Pratibha Navani: 

[4/7, 2:32 PM] Dr Surendra A Soni: 

आधुनिक अभी भी हमारे आचार्यों के दृष्टिकोण तक निश्चित रूप से नहीं पहुंच पाए है । 

इन्होंने 'नासा हि शिरसो द्वारम्' सिद्धांत को कई वर्षों पश्चात् स्वीकार किया है । 

सम्भव है कि आगे भी इसी सिद्धांत की पुष्टि प्रत्यक्ष अप्रत्यक्ष रूप में हो । 

त्वचा को भी इन्होंने अभी अवयव के रूप में स्थापित किया जिसका social media में प्रचार प्रसार है । 

अनेकों उदाहरण भरे पड़े हैं ।

[4/7, 2:35 PM] Dr Giriraj Sharma: 

आयुर्वेद सहिंता आर्ष सूत्र मेरे लिए आप्त है ।

 संशय रहित

पर उनकी जब तक हम आज के परिप्रेक्ष्य में आज के पैरामीटर्स में नही जान लेते है तब तक इनपर विचार करना चाहिये । अगर ये विचार एविडेन्स बेस्ड हो तो बेहतर है ।चिंतन होना चाहिए चयन नही........ !

*********************************************************************

Above discussion held on 'Kaysampraday" a Famous WhatsApp-discussion-group  of  well known Vaidyas from all over the India. 

Compiled & edited by

Dr.Surendra A. Soni

M.D.,PhD (KC)

Associate Professor

Dept. of Kaya-chikitsa

Govt. Ayurveda College

Vadodara Gujarat, India.

Email: surendraasoni@gmail.com

Mobile No. +91 9408441150