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WDS67: Frequency of Stool and it's various pathological aspects by Dr. Pawan Madaan, Vd. Raghuram Bhatta, Prof. Mamata Bhagwat, Vaidya Range Prasad Bhat & others.

[2/2, 07:23] pawan madan Dr:

There are many conditions in which the symptoms regarding the mala evacuation are quite confusing and we need to chikitsa sutra after seeing the upashay/anupshaya.

1.
Motions....1-3 times in the mng till noon.....normal or soft consistancy....pt feels evacuated after this and no motions at all whatsoever food he takes after this.....

2
Motions....2-4 times a day......semisolid or more loose but has to apply pressure.

3.
Motion....only 1 to 2 times in the mng....normal in consistancy......but has to sit in toilet for 20 to 30 mins...

4
Motions......loose or semisolid.....after eating something.....pt cant hold this....has to rush......but without significant pain in abdomen...

5.
Motions.....semisolid with severe pain many times jn the day night...

What chikitsa sutra needed to be applied in each one of these conditions ?

All these conditikns are included in the various stages of IBS but all need different chiktsaa.

[2/2, 08:54] Vd Raghuram Bhatta, Banguluru: 

Pawan sir... Awesome questionsšŸ‘ŒšŸ‘ŒšŸ‘ŒšŸ™šŸ™šŸ™šŸ’šŸ’

ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶

1.
*_Motions....1-3 times in the mng till noon.....normal or soft consistancy....pt feels evacuated after this and no motions at all whatsoever food he takes after this....._*

šŸ‘‰ *This may be prakruta - if no symptoms, ignore.*

šŸ‘‰ Food isn't making difference in bowel habit. Here there is delayed evacuation. This is on the backdrop of slow metabolism - slow digestion - moderate (madhyama) to mild (manda) type of koshta. I feel *Kapha type of ajirna I.e. amajirna treatment holds good here* . If pitta symptoms are available and if the person shows high pitta, the same shall be addressed.
*Slow digestion is causing slow evacuation with breaks* .

ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶

2
*_Motions....2-4 times a day......semisolid or more loose but has to apply pressure_*

šŸ‘‰ Let us think of *pravahika Chikitsa here or amajirna itself* . Semisolid and loose stools is more over directing towards pitta, but if pitta is involved, there may be more evacuation and effortless one too, like in atisara. But here applying pressure, points towards Vata involvement. So *pravahika Chikitsa makes sense*. Vata-pitta or Pitta-kapha involvement associated with ama and ajirna shall be considered. Tara Tama of doshas involved shall be accessed and predominant dosha, based on its symptoms shall be addressed.

Like - āœ…more loose and less pressure - pitta Vata
āœ…More pressure and less loose - Vata pitta
āœ…Semisolid and less pressure - Kapha Vata
āœ…Semisolid and more pressure - Vata Kapha

ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶

3.
*_Motion....only 1 to 2 times in the mng....normal in consistancy...... but has to sit in toilet for 20 to 30 mins_*

šŸ‘‰ Treat Vata, here gut behaviour seems to be on the backdrop of vishamagni (kadachit pachyate samyak, kadachit na pachyate). Looks krura koshta, but isn't. Clue is normal consistency.
Looking at the greater picture, I feel it is a case of *hyperactive Vata pulling Kapha from its seat to Apana sthana*. Like in ashayapakarsha. This Kapha travels through Agni / pitta sthana and causes mandagni. Kapha further blocks Apana function, of easy evacuation. Consider *kaphavruta Apana* (not classical, just to understand). Since Kapha is involved, consistency isn't changed. Since Vata is trapped, there is easy evacuation. Here, a *laxative with kshara* will definitely help. Initially treat mandagni. Later give a laxative mixed with kshara, like *Kalyana kshara*. It's my clinical experience.

ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶

4
*_Motions......loose or semisolid..... after eating something.....pt cant hold this....has to rush......but without significant pain in abdomen_*

šŸ‘‰ *Grahani Chikitsa*. Consider Pittaja. Can think of *Vidagdhajirna* also. Here, the tikshnagni quickly digests food, many times in a hurried way, sometimes improperly. Lot of pitta is produced. Sara Guna of pitta quickly mobilizes digested or undigested food quickly downwards and causes quick and repeated evacuation. Vata also need to be addressed in the follow up.

ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶

5.
*_Motions.....semisolid with severe pain many times jn the day night_*

šŸ‘‰ Due to severe pain, I ll go with *vataja Grahani Chikitsa*. Since there is semisolid stools, I may think of kaphaja Grahani if it were devoid of severe pain. *Kaphaja atisara / amajirna Chikitsa* may be thought of. *Annadrava shula* can also be considered.

ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶

You are right sir. *Upashaya anupashaya* is the key for judging these conditions and to frame Chikitsa sutra.
*Tara Tama bhavas* of doshas need to be considered.

šŸ‘‰ Chikitsa of types of *ajirna* (generally in acute manifestations and those cases of short duration) and *agnimandya* forms first line of treatment. I hv seen most cases respond to these.

šŸ‘‰ *Chikitsa of atisara, Grahani and pravahika and their subtypes* , shula Chikitsa (generally in later and chronic cases)

šŸ‘‰ *Krimi Chikitsa* is a must inclusion at the beginning

šŸ‘‰ *Adhmana, Udavarta, avarana, ashayapakarsha, vilambika* can be considered in non responsive cases

šŸ‘‰ In each case *ajirna and Grahani Chikitsa* can be thought of to keep things simple

šŸ‘‰ We need to see if bowel habits are inherited, acquired or habituated. For this we HV to understand the *koshta* of the patient thoroughly. 

šŸ‘‰ *Toilet training* may be the key in many cases, with counseling. Stress factor shall be ruled out. Shirodhara will hv to be included in these cases.

šŸ‘‰ Any *habits or addictions* need to be isolated. Incompatible foods, food combinations, food allergies etc should be ruled out. *Tracking the Nidana and it's parivarjana* is the key.

šŸ‘‰ Let's not miss out on addressing *mind factor*

ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶ā–¶

This is *my humble submission to your queries*. This is just my thought process and open for discussion.šŸ™šŸ™šŸ™šŸ’šŸ’

[2/2, 09:32] Dr Himani Gour: 

What a beautiful explanation sir....
You have described every aspect of it. We are thankful for making us understand this so deeply.
šŸ’šŸ’šŸ’

[2/2, 09:33] Dr Himani Gour: 

Sir what will be dose of kalyan kshar for the patient with same complain and with what laxative it should be given...?

[2/2, 10:34] Dr Rahul Pathania: Superb explanation siršŸ™šŸ»šŸ™šŸ»

[2/2, 11:02] Shivali Arora KC: Nicely explained šŸ‘Œ

[2/2, 11:24] Dr Surendra A Soni: 

šŸ‘ŒšŸ‘ŒšŸ™
Excellent description !
Covered almost all aspects.

Raghu Sir  !!

[2/2, 11:34] Dr Vinit Arora: šŸ™šŸ™ very much helpful

[2/2, 11:43] Deepak Bassi Dr: šŸ‘ŒšŸæšŸ‘ŒšŸæšŸ™šŸæ

[2/2, 11:45] Samta Tomar Dr Jmngr: šŸ‘ŒšŸ»šŸ‘ŒšŸ»šŸ™šŸ»

[2/2, 12:07] Dr Yogesh Gupta: šŸ™šŸ»šŸ™šŸ»šŸ™šŸ»šŸŒ¹šŸŒ¹šŸŒ¹

[2/2, 12:08] Dr. Ravikant Prajapati M. D, BHU.: šŸ‘ŒšŸ‘ŒšŸ’šŸ’šŸ™šŸ™šŸ™šŸ™

[2/2, 12:08] Dr Kapil kapoor: Great Raghu Sir šŸ™šŸ»šŸ™šŸ»šŸ’

[2/2, 12:17] Dr Sidram Guled: 

Very well elaborated amshamsha Kaplana...

[2/2, 12:39] Dr Ranga prasad Bhat, Chennai: 

Awesome understanding and explanation Raghu sir.šŸ‘ŒšŸ‘

[2/2, 12:46] Dr Jayshri Kulkarni, Latur: šŸ™šŸ»šŸ™šŸ»


[2/2, 12:51] Vd Raghuram Bhatta, Banguluru:

 Thanks so much siršŸ™

[2/2, 12:53] Dr Ranga prasad Bhat, Chennai: 

As far as my observations in patients of IBS is concerned, the influence of faculty of mind is directly proportional to the varied rubric of symptoms mentioned.

Confused and fear filled mind due to vague thoughts hampering the mind caused by unknown and unidenfied (by the person who is inflicted with) fear. (In other words fear of unknown causes - be it over familial/social/personal planes) - 
for 
point no 1.

A shokha grasta mind - for point no 

2.

Chinta grasta mind -

 for point no 3.

Anxiety and agitated mind - 

for point no 4.

Anxiety filled person working overtime in zeal not following his biological clock of his time line with irregular food timing and sleep habit.

In either of cases the agni is disturbed with vishamata and so is the apAna vayu gati.

Inclusion of a tranquillising combination to pacify the mind faculty will be the arena to be concentrated and thought of. šŸ¤”

[2/2, 12:53] Dr Bhadresh Nayak, Surat: 

Very interesting debut
It's very difficult to understand vibandh
Each and very personal having a different opinions and thinking
Vaidhya has to make personal diognosis according to sign and symptoms
Your feedback so imporant key to understand siršŸ™šŸ‘Œ

[2/2, 12:54] Dr Ranga prasad Bhat, Chennai: šŸ™šŸ™šŸ™šŸ’šŸ’šŸ’

[2/2, 12:56] Vd Raghuram Bhatta, Banguluru: 

Thanks so much Bhadresh siršŸ™šŸ™
You are right, at last yukti plays a key role in understanding a given pathology and making diagnosis from their viewpointšŸ™šŸ™


[2/2, 13:01] Vd Raghuram Bhatta, Banguluru: 

You can preferably give it with Avipatty churna. Or any other laxative of your choice, as per condition. See for kaphanubandha. Dose may vary from a pinch to few pinches to 1-2grams. You can give it individually too, mixed with honey. Ushnodaka may be used as post drink. Use for short duration.
Dr. Himani !

[2/2, 18:04] Dr. D C Katoch sir: 

Weldon Sambhasha  between Dr Pawan for his questions and Dr Raghuram for his answers! šŸ’šŸ’šŸ’

[2/2, 18:28] Dr Manu Vats, Patiala: 

That's a  Real Differential Diagnosis..
Pin pointed Queries raised by Pawan Sir and Equally very well described by RaghuRam SiršŸ’šŸ’Thanks both of you ..
Your efforts are truly appreciable.

[2/2, 19:14] Dr Surendra A Soni: 

Few physiological and marginal pathology conditions must be remembered in managing such cases regarding.

 few Lifestyle points are important to be observed that is mainly seen in point number
 one.

Habit of
 -late night dinner & sleeping
-delayed awakening
 -delayed lunch breakfast dinner
-skipping lunch breakfast dinner
 -smoking
-tobacco chewing alcoholism etc
r few factors responsible for irregular behaviour of intestine.
-excessive fibres in diet or absence of fibres in diet both condition will affect the intestinal behaviour.
- quantity of Spice and Sneha will also affect the intestinal behaviour.
 -the concept of six rasas are equally effective or to be looked for intestinal behaviour.
- if madhuras is completely absence in diet definitely it is going to affect the intestine.
- if Katu tikt kashaya Rasas are dominant in diet with the absence of Sneha it is going to affect consistency of stool.

šŸ™

[2/2, 19:56] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey: 

šŸ‘ŒšŸ‘šŸ‘šŸ’šŸ™
Absolutely brilliant analysis and suggestions Dr Raghu Ji.

I just read your reply cover to cover. Great analysis, as always.

You are indeed an original thinker in contemporary Ayurveda.

[2/2, 20:02] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey: 

šŸ‘šŸ‘ŒšŸ’šŸ™
Very very novel thinking, Acharya.

These observations are gold standard indeed.

[2/2, 20:58] pawan madan Dr: 

šŸ™šŸ™šŸ™šŸ’šŸ’šŸŒ¹šŸŒ¹

Thanks sir.
1.
*Delayed evacuation.....*šŸ‘āœ…

But doing ajeerna chikitsaa .... not helping at all....and also no any syms of aamajeerna found.
*Treating on the lines of Malabadhataa helps in suchbcases*.

2.
*Tara tama examination of doshas....*āœ…
And giving Pravaahika chiktsaa like GRAAHI helps here in most cases.
*But few cases needs Anulomana with for ex haritaki..*.šŸ˜‰šŸ˜Š

3.
*Totally agree*
My clinical exp too.

4.
Most of such cases come from the category of various tyoes of *illieitis and colitis* abd pt suffers from recurrent syms of pain, disturbances in bowel movements.
*Grahani chikitsaa is perfectly needed here but some Ropan chiktsa is also needed*....otherwise only symptomatic results are achieved.....herbs like chandan, mathuyashti and lodhra helps in such cases.

5.
šŸ‘šŸ‘šŸ‘

Thanks Raghu Ji for nice elaboration.

The purpose of putting these questions was...

šŸ‘‰šŸ» *in many such cases we dont find Agnimandya.... although it should be there theoretically*

šŸ‘‰šŸ» *adopting Agnivardhan or Agni correction is not giving results in most of such cases*

šŸ‘‰šŸ» *Krimi chikitsa is my favourite line of treatment in suchbcases*

šŸ‘‰šŸ» Toilet training is tooooo much necessary as you pointed.....like *not to make pressure for potty* and *not to stop pressure of potty* as well as *avoiding intake of excess water*

šŸ‘‰šŸ» *Mind factor is a big one*. *In many such conditiins I just gave treatment to improve the Satva and it gave results....no deepan paachan geaahi or anuloman at all*.
*And this is a big number of cases.*

šŸŒ¹šŸ’šŸŒ¹šŸ’šŸŒ¹

[2/2, 21:00] Dr Amol kadu NIA, Jaipur: 

Nice questions by pawan sir and excellent explanation by raghuji sir.

[2/2, 21:00] Dr Amol kadu NIA, Jaipur: 

Here i want to on emphasize on hetu parivarjan chukisa.

 Most of the patient drink 3-4 glasses of water after waking up in morning which is the most common hetu.

[2/2, 21:02] pawan madan Dr: 

Very true....bro...šŸ‘šŸ‘šŸ‘

All these points are valid and this is a big number of such cases.

As I mentioned the porpose of raising the query was ...... ajeern,  aama, agni chikitsaa was not working in most of such cases and I need to try alternate chikitsaa sutra.

šŸ‘šŸ‘šŸ‘šŸ™šŸ™

[2/2, 21:02] pawan madan Dr: 

Yess...
I pointed all these in my reply.
šŸ™

[2/2, 21:03] Dr Amol kadu NIA, Jaipur: 

ą¤Øą¤¾ą¤®ą„ą¤¬ą„ ą¤Ŗą„‡ą¤Æą¤®ą¤¶ą¤•ą„ą¤¤ą„ą¤Æą¤¾ वा ą¤øą„ą¤µą¤²ą„ą¤Ŗą¤®ą¤²ą„ą¤Ŗą¤¾ą¤—ą„ą¤Øą¤æą¤—ą„ą¤²ą„ą¤®ą¤æą¤­ą¤æą¤ƒą„„ą„§ą„©ą„„
ą¤Ŗą¤¾ą¤£ą„ą¤”ą„‚ą¤¦ą¤°ą¤¾ą¤¤ą¤æą¤øą¤¾ą¤°ą¤¾ą¤°ą„ą¤¶ą„‹ą¤—ą„ą¤°ą¤¹ą¤£ą„€ą¤¶ą„‹ą¤·ą¤¶ą„‹ą¤„ą¤æą¤­ą¤æą¤ƒą„¤
ą¤‹ą¤¤ą„‡ ą¤¶ą¤°ą¤Øą„ą¤Øą¤æą¤¦ą¤¾ą¤˜ą¤¾ą¤­ą„ą¤Æą¤¾ą¤‚ ą¤Ŗą¤æą¤¬ą„‡ą¤¤ą„ą¤øą„ą¤µą¤øą„ą¤„ą„‹ą¤½ą¤Ŗą¤æ ą¤šą¤¾ą¤²ą„ą¤Ŗą¤¶ą¤ƒą„„ą„§ą„Ŗą„„

[2/2, 21:04] Dr Amol kadu NIA, Jaipur: 

šŸ™šŸ™i missed it to read it.

[2/2, 21:10] pawan madan Dr: 

šŸ‘šŸ‘šŸ‘šŸ‘

Very true...
Dr. Soni !
Now I am working on all of your points.
When deepan paachan graahi chikitsaa failed in such cases then my attention was finding all such causes plus mwntal causes.
Thanks.
Now will go into more detailed history of such cases to find such factors.

[2/2, 21:17] Dr Pankaj Chhayani: 

Dealing with AharParinamakara bhava is always helpful.
Ushma
Vayu
Klaeda
Sneha
Kala
Samyoga

[2/2, 21:22] Dr Surendra A Soni: 

Kalp/rasayan chikitsa  is best solution with restricted diet and lifestyle  to regulate as well as rejuvenate the intestinal tone when patient is symptom free after right management.

[2/2, 21:25] Dr. D C Katoch sir: 

Very nice experiential inputs sharing.  Here I would like to recommend to see fòr amount of fibre Ƭntake and timings of meals & sleep if agni,  kshudha, pachan shakti and aahar matra are stated to be normal. Interplay of  fibre content  in meals and type of kosth determines the kind/frequency of evacuation and consistency of stools.

[2/2, 21:26] Vd Raghuram Bhatta, Banguluru: 

My pleasure siršŸ™
I am also in total agreement if the subtle points you hv noted, tried to discriminate and diagnose as a true clinicianšŸ™šŸ‘šŸ‘šŸ‘ŒšŸ’

As you mentioned, agnimandhya may not be available in many cases but they might hv got latent after manifestation of disease related symptoms. Here *agnimandhya can be seen as a cause and not effect*. We can remember *vid sanga* as a purvarupa of *atisara* which are contrasting symptoms.

*We can also see the beauty of Ayurveda formulations*šŸ’šŸ’
They are extremely comprehensive. *Many compounds are a mix up of deepana, pachana, srotoshodhana, sramsana or grahi, Rasayana etc*

Ex - Amritottaram Kashayam is a combo of *haritaki, Amruta and nagara*... Though it's given in Jwara often, skilfully used it can be used in many disorders. This is only an example.

We also should include *Rasayana and role of Vasti* in preventing recurrences. Toilet training was explained in Ayurveda long back... *vegadharana*

Thanks for creating a scope for this discussion siršŸ™šŸ™

[2/2, 21:27] pawan madan Dr: 

šŸ™šŸ™

Will take care of these factors in future.

[2/2, 21:32] Vd Raghuram Bhatta, Banguluru: 

Good one gurujišŸ™šŸ™šŸ‘ŒšŸ’

*Sleep...yes*šŸ‘šŸ‘Œ
We can find people working night shifts being culprits of these issues, one or the other.

I always advise all patients to *set up the biological clock first*

First *dinner and it's spacing with sleep should be planned*... Early dinner, right spacing with sleep time... *when followed regularly and religiously* will set the biological clock. Wake up time, breakfast time, lunch time, bowel habits...everything will adjust by itself... automatically. *Body-mind is a super combo*. If we fine tune one, the other will come in linešŸ™šŸ™
Hon'ble Katoch Sir !

[2/2, 21:33] pawan madan Dr: 

šŸ‘šŸ‘šŸ‘šŸ‘
šŸ’šŸ’

Yukti is always important and this yukti is always different in different cases.

True...agnimaandya could be cause......but then.....we need to apply chikitsaa sutra as per the present picture.

But this agnimaandya as hetu.... doesnt hold any significance in terms of treatment.

This is because I always find that Hetu vipreeta chikitsa is the ultimate apunarbhav chikitsa. And as per the context ....maanas dosha comes out to be imp hetus......

Thanks for such a nice discussion.
šŸ’šŸŒ¹šŸ’

[2/2, 21:38] Vd Raghuram Bhatta, Banguluru: 

šŸ‘ŒšŸ‘ŒšŸ‘ŒšŸ™šŸ™
*Yukti..yes* that's the key for situational understanding and management... application of Chikitsa sutra as per current picture

Manas...many times is the boss...the messup makeršŸ˜„

[2/2, 21:41] Vd Raghuram Bhatta, Banguluru: 

Thanks for encouraging words siršŸ™šŸ™šŸ™

This platform *KS* itself is so inspirational...gives impetus for all these discussions. *A lovely classroom*šŸ™ā¤

[2/2, 21:42] Vd Raghuram Bhatta, Banguluru: 

Awesome summary of nidanas ! Soni sir...šŸ’šŸ‘šŸ‘šŸ‘ŒšŸ™

[2/2, 21:47] pawan madan Dr: 

Dr Raghu Ji

Here I would like to fraw your attention towards Kaphaja atisaar.

Have you got some cases like this ?

[2/2, 21:51] Vd Raghuram Bhatta, Banguluru: 

Yes sir. I hv mentioned atisara in my reply, but missed out on kaphaja... that was in the back of my mind... thanks for reminding. Get to see very less of atisara cases in my clinics, but hv found few patients presenting with kaphaja atisara type of complaints. I mean finger countable.

[2/2, 21:55] pawan madan Dr: 

If we examine the picture explained in charak for kaphaja atisaar sometimes we may put a question....weather practically this is a kind of atisaar or not...šŸ˜‰šŸ¤”

[2/2, 22:02] Vd Raghuram Bhatta, Banguluru: 

*Charaka's atisara, Grahani and Arshas* are in such details that I too wondered sometimes regarding the listing of complaints.

Most times we *diagnose diseases on the basis of nirukti or paribhasha* of a disease, sometimes in description of Samprapti, other diseases on basis of symptoms.

When listing of symptoms are lengthy, we take *safer ways*.

*Studying the diseases on the basis of Charakokta symptoms is challenging*, in many cases I feel it's impossible to be frank.

*Due respect to Acharya charaka and salutes to his subtle observations* about wide range of clinical presentations if a given case or subtype of a disease. šŸ™šŸ’

[2/2, 22:03] Dr Deepak Saxena, Kurukshetra: šŸ‘ŒšŸ‘ŒšŸ‘ŒšŸ‘ŒšŸ‘ŒšŸ’šŸ’šŸ’šŸ™Sir

[2/2, 22:05] Prof Mamata Bhagwat: 

Your query is genuine Pawan Bhai,
Kaphaja atisara is
Atisara Kam pravakika jyada andaz karna chahiye.
Pravahana is the feature to justify it.
ą¤Ŗą„ą¤°ą¤µą„ƒą¤¦ą„ą¤§ वात being obstructed by ą¤Ŗą„ą¤°ą¤µą„ƒą¤¦ą„ą¤§ कफ as explained by A. Sushrutha is similar to that of Kaphaja atisara as explained by A Charaka.

[2/2, 22:06] pawan madan Dr: 

But still I see that we can find such conditions.
The need is to see broadly.

Any one type includes many different conditions.
Need to keep track of all symptoms in a collective manner.

As A day beore Dr Narinder ji made a nidaan of Vaataj Grahmi in a diagnosed case of Sjogren symdrome.
It was awesome.
I have experienced many such cases.

Thats why I pointed kaphaj atisaar.

[2/2, 22:10] pawan madan Dr: 

šŸ‘šŸ‘šŸ™šŸ™

Picchilam aamama tantum.....
Anubadha shoolam alpama alpam abheeksham..

Sometimes....point to IBS .D or sometimes to inflammatory bowel disease...

[2/2, 22:11] pawan madan Dr: 

And its cardinal feature...

Krite api akrita feeling...

..is very common in clinical picture of todays lifestyle...

[2/2, 22:15] Dr. D C Katoch sir: 

Unfortunately these factors can not be corrected by medicines but such patients always look for medicines without putting any effort to change their eating, sleeping habits and so the biological clock continues to remain uncorrected.

[2/2, 22:15] Dr Surendra A Soni: 

Right Madam  !šŸ‘ŒšŸ‘
Charak just mentioned the pravahika as a symptom, not described it with samprapti like Sushruta.

[2/2, 22:16] Vd Raghuram Bhatta, Banguluru: 

Indeed yes. We can find such conditions. No doubt. But how many of us see things in a broader way? It's impossible to consider all symptoms explained classically. *We need to pick pradhana lakahanas and clues*. If we really go according to Shastra, we may spend a day or week in diagnosing one condition. Hardly two. If we are doing research, it's justified. Not in clinical practice.

I agree with your second point, like *one type includes many different conditions*.

But *tracking all symptoms as per classical ref is not possible*...many times...

How many of us hv diagnosed *Sannipataja Jwara* in the basis of classical symptoms. *Have we enlisted the entire symptoms mentioned by Acharyas before treating them?*

*I bet no*

*Tracking most symptoms or important symptoms is reasonable*. The less predominant symptoms will be handled while doing *Vyadhi pratyaneeka Chikitsa*...since we are handling the roots of the disease.

[2/2, 22:16] pawan madan Dr: 

Chakrapaani here mentions one word...

Vibadho alpo....

It is atisaar but patient feels constipated.
Seems inyeresting.
And here if one applies vibandha chikitsaa....everything gets disturbed....

[2/2, 22:18] Vd Raghuram Bhatta, Banguluru: 

šŸ‘ŒšŸ‘ŒšŸ‘ŒšŸ™
*When in crisis of diagnosis...play safe...run to Madhava Nidana*šŸ˜„

[2/2, 22:18] Dr Surendra A Soni: 

*'ą¤•ą„ƒą¤¤ą„‡sपिsą¤•ą„ƒą¤¤ą¤¶ą„œą„ą¤•ą¤ƒ ą„¤'*

Classical by Acharya Charak.

[2/2, 22:19] Vd Raghuram Bhatta, Banguluru: 

True sir. These patients are really challenging. šŸ™šŸ™

[2/2, 22:19] Prof Mamata Bhagwat: 

This is how Pravahana manifests. Feels the urge but cannot evacuate.
This *Aati nahi* (šŸ¤ŖšŸ˜† muafi ke liye shukr guzar !) will force him to do Kunthana.

[2/2, 22:20] Dr Surendra A Soni: šŸ˜„šŸ‘

[2/2, 22:20] pawan madan Dr: 

āœ…
In many cases its ok.

But when we come to various syndroms....really it takes a day to me for making a diagnosis and I really take time before starting the actial treatment.

šŸ˜…šŸ˜…šŸ˜‰šŸ˜‰

[2/2, 22:22] Prof Mamata Bhagwat: 

This is feature of incomplete evacuation.
It's a neurological feature developing due to inflammation present in the rectal region.

[2/2, 22:22] Vd Raghuram Bhatta, Banguluru: 

āœ…āœ…āœ…true sir.
I too have *never prescribed medicines on the day of consultation*... I ll take time, *my patients have been obliging over a period of time...know my pattern*.

[2/2, 22:25] Dr Ranga prasad Bhat, Chennai: 

šŸ‘ŒšŸ‘ŒšŸ‘Œ
Vagus nerve irritation is the culprit.

[2/2, 22:29] Dr Surendra A Soni: 

Exudative mucous is mainly responsible for this.

[2/2, 22:34] pawan madan Dr: 

Kaise sir ?

[2/2, 22:34] Dr Surendra A Soni: 

Results of inflammation. ..

As seen in dysentery.

[2/2, 22:38] pawan madan Dr: šŸ™

[2/2, 22:47] Dr. D C Katoch sir: 

Actual treatment ???

[2/2, 22:48] pawan madan Dr: 

šŸ˜ŠšŸ˜ŠšŸ˜…šŸ˜…

sir actual treatment means..
Right Nidaan
Right chikitsaa sitra application..
šŸ™šŸ™

[2/2, 22:52] Dr. D C Katoch sir:

 ą¤šą¤æą¤•ą¤æą¤¤ą„ą¤øą¤¾ ą¤¤ą„‹ ą¤šą¤æą¤•ą¤æą¤¤ą„ą¤øą¤¾ ą¤¹ą„ˆ- actual  या virtual या provisional ą¤•ą„ą¤› ą¤­ą„€ ą¤Øą¤¹ą„€ą¤‚ ą„¤  अगर ą¤¹ą„‹ ą¤—ą¤ˆ ą¤¤ą„‹ ą¤šą¤æą¤•ą¤æą¤¤ą„ą¤øą¤¾ ą¤¹ą„ˆ, ą¤Øą¤¹ą„€ą¤‚ ą¤¤ą„‹ ą¤šą¤æą¤•ą¤æą¤¤ą„ą¤øą¤¾ ą¤•ą„ˆą¤øą„€ą„¤

[2/2, 22:58] Dr. D C Katoch sir: 

ą¤ ą„€ą¤• ą¤¹ą„ˆ भाई, पर ą¤…ą¤øą¤¾ą¤§ą„ą¤Æą¤¤ą¤¾ का ą¤œą¤°ą„ą¤° ą¤§ą„ą¤Æą¤¾ą¤Ø रखा ą¤•ą¤°ą„‹ą„¤ ą¤ą¤øą„€ ą¤øą„ą¤„ą¤æą¤¤ą¤æ ą¤®ą„‡ą¤‚ ą¤²ą¤•ą„ą¤·ą¤£ą„‹ą¤‚ का शमन या ą¤Øą¤æą¤Æą¤Øą„ą¤¤ą„ą¤°ą¤£ ą¤¹ą„€ ą¤šą¤æą¤•ą¤æą¤¤ą„ą¤øą¤¾ ą¤¹ą„ˆą„¤

[2/2, 23:06] Prof Mamata Bhagwat: 

Pravriddha Kapha obstructing pravriddha Vata.
Inflammation āž”mucosal dischargeāž” neurological irritationāž” sense of incomplete evacuationāž” Pravahana

[2/2, 23:16] Dr Surendra A Soni: 

šŸ™šŸ™
*ą¤µą¤¾ą¤Æą„ą¤ƒ ą¤Ŗą„ą¤°ą¤µą„ƒą¤¦ą„ą¤§ą„‹* ą¤Øą¤æą¤šą¤æą¤¤ą¤‚ बलासं ą¤Øą„ą¤¦ą¤¤ą„ą¤Æą¤§ą¤øą„ą¤¤ą¤¾ą¤¦ą¤¹ą¤æą¤¤ą¤¾ą¤¶ą¤Øą¤øą„ą¤Æ ą„¤
ą¤Ŗą„ą¤°ą¤µą¤¾ą¤¹ą¤®ą¤¾ą¤£ą¤øą„ą¤Æ ą¤®ą„ą¤¹ą„ą¤°ą„ą¤®ą¤²ą¤¾ą¤•ą„ą¤¤ą¤‚ ą¤Ŗą„ą¤°ą¤µą¤¾ą¤¹ą¤æą¤•ą¤¾ą¤‚ तां ą¤Ŗą„ą¤°ą¤µą¤¦ą¤Øą„ą¤¤ą¤æ ą¤¤ą¤œą„ą¤œą„ą¤žą¤¾ą¤ƒ ą„¤ą„¤ą„§ą„©ą„®ą„¤ą„¤

Dalhan

ą¤Øą¤æą¤šą¤æą¤¤ą¤‚ ą¤øą¤žą„ą¤šą¤Æą¤Ŗą„ą¤°ą¤¾ą¤Ŗą„ą¤¤ą¤‚, बलासं ą¤¶ą„ą¤²ą„‡ą¤·ą„ą¤®ą¤¾ą¤£ą¤‚, ą¤Øą„ą¤¦ą¤¤ą¤æ ą¤Ŗą„ą¤°ą„‡ą¤°ą¤Æą¤¤ą¤æ, ą¤…ą¤§ą¤øą„ą¤¤ą¤¾ą¤¦ą„ ą¤—ą„ą¤¦ą¤®ą¤¾ą¤°ą„ą¤—ą„‡, ą¤Ŗą„ą¤°ą¤µą¤¾ą¤¹ą¤®ą¤¾ą¤£ą¤øą„ą¤Æ ą¤Ŗą„ą¤°ą„‡ą¤°ą„ą¤Æą¤®ą¤¾ą¤£ą¤øą„ą¤Æ, ą¤®ą„ą¤¹ą„ą¤ƒ वारंवारं, ą¤®ą¤²ą¤¾ą¤•ą„ą¤¤ą¤®ą„ ą¤ˆą¤·ą¤¤ą„ą¤Ŗą„ą¤°ą„€ą¤·ą¤®ą¤æą¤¶ą„ą¤°ą¤‚, "ą¤¶ą„ą¤²ą„‡ą¤·ą„ą¤®ą¤¾ą¤£ą¤‚" इति ą¤¶ą„‡ą¤·ą¤ƒ; ą¤ą¤¤ą„‡ą¤Øą„ˆą¤¤ą¤¦ą„ą¤•ą„ą¤¤ą¤‚ भवति- ą¤Æą¤¤ą„ą¤° ą¤°ą„‹ą¤—ą„‡ ą¤µą¤¾ą¤¤ą¤Ŗą„ą¤°ą„‡ą¤°ą¤æą¤¤ą¤‚ कफं ą¤Ŗą„ą¤°ą„ą¤·ą¤ƒ ą¤Ŗą„ą¤°ą„‡ą¤°ą¤Æą¤¤ą¤æ, तां ą¤Ŗą„ą¤°ą¤µą¤¾ą¤¹ą¤æą¤•ą¤¾ą¤‚ कफं ą¤Ŗą„ą¤°ą¤µą¤¾ą¤¹ą¤®ą¤¾ą¤£ą¤øą„ą¤Æ ą¤Ŗą„ą¤°ą„‡ą¤°ą„ą¤Æą¤®ą¤¾ą¤£ą¤øą„ą¤Æ ą¤¤ą¤œą„ą¤œą„ą¤žą¤¾ą¤ƒ ą¤Ŗą„ą¤°ą¤µą¤¦ą¤Øą„ą¤¤ą„€ą¤¤ą¤æ ą¤øą¤®ą„ą¤¬ą¤Øą„ą¤§ą¤ƒą„¤ ą¤¬ą¤²ą¤¾ą¤øą¤®ą¤æą¤¤ą„ą¤Æą„ą¤Ŗą¤²ą¤•ą„ą¤·ą¤£ą¤‚, ą¤¤ą„‡ą¤Ø ą¤Ŗą¤æą¤¤ą„ą¤¤ą¤‚ ą¤°ą¤•ą„ą¤¤ą¤‚ वा निचितमिति ą¤œą„ą¤žą„‡ą¤Æą¤®ą„ą„¤ą„¤ą„§ą„©ą„®ą„¤ą„¤

[2/3, 00:00] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi:

 *इस group discussion ą¤•ą„‡ ą¤†ą¤—ą„‡ ą¤øą¤­ą„€ work shops और seminars ą¤›ą„‹ą¤Ÿą„€ ą¤¹ą„ˆą¤‚ą„¤*





**************************************************************************

Above discussion held on 'Kaysampraday" a Famous WhatsApp-discussion-group  of  well known Vaidyas from all over the India. 



Compiled & edited by


Dr.Surendra A. Soni



M.D.,PhD (KC)
Associate Professor
DEPT. OF KAYACHIKITSA
Govt. Ayurveda College
Vadodara GUJARAT, India.
Email: surendraasoni@gmail.com
Mobile No. +91 9408441150

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[11/1, 00:57] Tapan Vaidya:  Today morning I experienced a wonderful result in a gasping ILD pt. I, for the first time in my life used Hemgarbhpottali rasa. His pulse was 120 and O2 saturation 55! After Hemgarbhapottali administration within 10 minutes pulse came dwn to 108 and O2 saturation 89 !! I repeated the Matra in the noon with addition of Trailokyachintamani Rasa as advised by Panditji. Again O2 saturation went to 39 in evening. Third dose was given. This time O2  saturation did not responded. Just before few minutes after a futile CPR I hd to declare him dead. But the result with HGP was astonishing i must admit. [11/1, 06:13] Mayur Surana Dr.:  [11/1, 06:19] M gopikrishnan Dr.: [11/1, 06:22] Vd.Vivek savant:         Last 10 days i got very good result of hemgarbh matra in Aatyayik chikitsa. Regular pt due to Apathya sevan of 250 gm dadhi (freez) get attack asthmatic t...

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[2/25, 6:47 PM] Vd Rajnikant Patel, Surat:  ą¤°ą„‡ą¤µą¤¤ą„€ ą¤—ą„ą¤°ą¤¹ ą¤Ŗą„€ą„œą¤æą¤¤ बालक ą¤•ą„€ ą¤†ą¤Æą„ą¤°ą„ą¤µą„‡ą¤¦ą¤æą¤• ą¤šą¤æą¤•ą¤æą¤¤ą„ą¤øą¤¾:- यह ą¤¬ą¤šą„ą¤šą¤¾ 1 साल ą¤•ą„€ ą¤†ą¤Æą„ वाला और 3 ą¤•ą¤æą¤²ą„‹ą¤—ą„ą¤°ą¤¾ą¤® वजन वाला ą¤†ą¤Æą„ą¤°ą„ą¤µą„‡ą¤¦ą¤æą¤• सारवार ą¤²ą„‡ą¤Øą„‡ ą¤¹ą„‡ą¤¤ą„ आया जब आया तब उसका ą¤¹ą„€ą¤®ą„‹ą¤—ą„ą¤²ą„‹ą¤¬ą¤æą¤Ø ą¤øą¤æą¤°ą„ą¤« 3 ऄा और परिवार ą¤—ą¤°ą„€ą¤¬ ą¤¹ą„‹ą¤Øą„‡ ą¤•ą„‡ कारण ą¤•ą„‹ą¤ˆ ą¤šą¤æą¤•ą¤æą¤¤ą„ą¤øą¤¾ ą¤•ą¤°ą¤¾ą¤Øą„‡ ą¤®ą„‡ą¤‚ ą¤…ą¤øą¤®ą¤°ą„ą¤„ ऄा ą¤¤ą„‹ ą¤•ą¤æą¤øą„€ą¤Øą„‡ कहा कि ą¤†ą¤Æą„ą¤°ą„ą¤µą„‡ą¤¦ सारवार ą¤šą¤¾ą¤²ą„‚ ą¤•ą¤°ą„‹ और ą¤¹ą¤®ą¤¾ą¤°ą„‡ पास आया ą„¤ ą¤®ą„‡ą¤Øą„‡ ą¤°ą„‡ą¤µą¤¤ą„€ ą¤—ą„ą¤°ą¤¹ का निदान किया और ą¤—ą„ą¤°ą¤¹ ą¤šą¤æą¤•ą¤æą¤¤ą„ą¤øą¤¾ ą¤¶ą„ą¤°ą„‚ ą¤•ą„€ą„¤(ą¤øą„ą¤¶ą„ą¤°ą„ą¤¤ संहिता) ą¤šą¤æą¤•ą¤æą¤¤ą„ą¤øą¤¾ :- ą¤…ą¤—ą„ą¤Øą¤æą¤®ą¤‚ą¤„, ą¤µą¤°ą„ą¤£, ą¤Ŗą¤°ą¤æą¤­ą¤¦ą„ą¤°, ą¤¹ą¤°ą¤æą¤¦ą„ą¤°ą¤¾, ą¤•ą¤°ą¤‚ą¤œ इनका सम भाग ą¤šą„‚ą¤°ą„ą¤£(ą¤•ą¤¶ą„ą¤Æą¤Ŗ संहिता) ą¤²ą„‡ą¤•ą„‡ ą¤°ą„‹ą¤œ ą¤•ą„ą¤µą¤¾ą¤„ ą¤¬ą¤Øą¤¾ą¤•ą„‡ ą¤Ŗą„‚ą¤°ą„‡ ą¤¶ą¤°ą„€ą¤° पर 30 मिनिट तक ą¤øą„ą¤¬ą¤¹ शाम ą¤øą¤æą¤‚ą¤šą¤Ø ओर ą¤øą¤æą¤‚ą¤šą¤Ø ą¤•ą¤°ą¤Øą„‡ ą¤•ą„‡ ą¤Ŗą¤¶ą„ą¤šą¤¾ą¤¤ Ulundhu tailam (यह SDM ą¤øą¤æą¤¦ą„ą¤§ą¤¾ ą¤•ą¤‚ą¤Ŗą¤Øą„€ का ą¤¤ą„‡ą¤² ą¤¹ą„ˆ ą¤œą¤æą¤øą¤®ą„‡ ą¤Ŗą„ą¤°ą¤®ą„ą¤– ą¤¦ą„ą¤°ą¤µą„ą¤Æ उऔद का ą¤¤ą„‡ą¤² ą¤¹ą„ˆ)ą¤øą„‡ ą¤øą¤°ą„ą¤µ ą¤¶ą¤°ą„€ą¤° ą¤…ą¤­ą„ą¤Æą¤‚ą¤— कराया ओर ą¤…ą¤­ą„ą¤Æą¤‚ą¤— ą¤•ą„‡ ą¤Ŗą¤¶ą„ą¤šą¤¾ą¤¤ वचा,ą¤Øą¤æą¤®ą„ą¤¬ ą¤Ŗą¤¤ą„ą¤°, ą¤øą¤°ą¤øą„‹,ą¤¬ą¤æą¤²ą„ą¤²ą„€ ą¤•ą„€ ą¤µą¤æą¤·ą„ą¤Ÿą¤¾ ओर ą¤˜ą„‹ą„œą„‡ ą¤•ą„‡ ą¤µą¤æą¤·ą„ą¤Ÿą¤¾(ą¤­ą„ˆą¤·ą¤œą„ą¤Æ ą¤°ą¤¤ą„ą¤Øą¤¾ą¤µą¤²ą„€) ą¤øą„‡ ą¤øą¤°ą„ą¤µ ą¤¶ą¤°ą„€ą¤° ą¤®ą„‡ ą¤§ą„‚ą¤Ŗ 10-15मिनिट ą¤øą„ą¤¬ą¤œ ą¤¶ą¤¾ą¤®ą„¤ माता ą¤•ą„‹ ą¤øą„ą¤¤ą¤Øą„ą¤Æ ą¤¶ą„ą¤¦ą„ą¤§ą¤æ ą¤•ą¤°ą¤Øą„‡ ą¤•ą„€ ą¤²ą¤æą¤ ą¤¤ą„ą¤°ą¤æą¤«ą¤²ą¤¾, ą¤¤ą„ą¤°ą¤æą¤•ą¤Ÿą„, ą¤Ŗą¤æą¤Ŗą„ą¤Ŗą¤²ą„€, पाठा, ą¤Æą¤øą„ą¤Ÿą¤æą¤®ą¤§ą„, वचा, ą¤œą¤®ą„ą¤¬ą„‚ फल, ą¤¦ą„‡ą¤µą¤¦ą¤¾ą¤°ą„ ओर ą¤øą¤°ą¤øą„‹ इनका समभाग ą¤šą„‚ą¤°ą„ą¤£ ą¤®ą¤§ą„ ą¤•ą„‡ साऄ ą¤øą„ą¤¬ą¤¹ शाम (ą¤•ą¤¶ą„ą¤Æą¤Ŗ संहिता) 15 दिन ą¤•ą„€ ą¤šą¤æą¤•ą¤æą¤¤ą„ą¤øą¤¾ ą¤•ą„‡ ...

DIFFERENCES IN PATHOGENESIS OF PRAMEHA, ATISTHOOLA AND URUSTAMBHA MAINLY AS PER INVOLVEMENT OF MEDODHATU

Compiled  by Dr.Surendra A. Soni M.D.,PhD (KC) Associate Professor Dept. of Kaya-chikitsa Govt. Ayurveda College Vadodara Gujarat, India. Email: surendraasoni@gmail.com Mobile No. +91 9408441150

UNDERSTANDING THE DIFFERENTIATION OF RAKTAPITTA, AMLAPITTA & SHEETAPITTA

UNDERSTANDING OF RAKTAPITTA, AMLAPITTA  & SHEETAPITTA  AS PER  VARIOUS  CLASSICAL  ASPECTS MENTIONED  IN  AYURVEDA. Compiled  by Dr. Surendra A. Soni M.D.,PhD (KC) Associate Professor Head of the Department Dept. of Kaya-chikitsa Govt. Ayurveda College Vadodara Gujarat, India. Email: surendraasoni@gmail.com Mobile No. +91 9408441150

Case-presentation- Self-medication induced 'Urdhwaga-raktapitta'.

This is a c/o SELF MEDICATION INDUCED 'Urdhwaga Raktapitta'.  Patient had hyperlipidemia and he started to take the Ayurvedic herbs Ginger (Aardrak), Garlic (Rason) & Turmeric (Haridra) without expertise Ayurveda consultation. Patient got rid of hyperlipidemia but hemoptysis (Rakta-shtheevan) started that didn't respond to any modern drug. No abnormality has been detected in various laboratorical-investigations. Video recording on First visit in Govt. Ayu. Hospital, Pani-gate, Vadodara.   He was given treatment on line of  'Urdhwaga-rakta-pitta'.  On 5th day of treatment he was almost symptom free but consumed certain fast food and symptoms reoccurred but again in next five days he gets cured from hemoptysis (Rakta-shtheevan). Treatment given as per availability in OPD Dispensary at Govt. Ayurveda College hospital... 1.Sitopaladi Choorna-   6 gms SwarnmakshikBhasma-  125mg MuktashuktiBhasma-500mg   Giloy-sattv...