WDS67: Frequency of Stool and it's various pathological aspects by Dr. Pawan Madaan, Vd. Raghuram Bhatta, Prof. Mamata Bhagwat, Vaidya Range Prasad Bhat & others.
[2/2, 07:23] pawan madan Dr:
There are many conditions in which the symptoms regarding the mala evacuation are quite confusing and we need to chikitsa sutra after seeing the upashay/anupshaya.
1.
Motions....1-3 times in the mng till noon.....normal or soft consistancy....pt feels evacuated after this and no motions at all whatsoever food he takes after this.....
2
Motions....2-4 times a day......semisolid or more loose but has to apply pressure.
3.
Motion....only 1 to 2 times in the mng....normal in consistancy......but has to sit in toilet for 20 to 30 mins...
4
Motions......loose or semisolid.....after eating something.....pt cant hold this....has to rush......but without significant pain in abdomen...
5.
Motions.....semisolid with severe pain many times jn the day night...
What chikitsa sutra needed to be applied in each one of these conditions ?
All these conditikns are included in the various stages of IBS but all need different chiktsaa.
[2/2, 08:54] Vd Raghuram Bhatta, Banguluru:
Pawan sir... Awesome questionsЁЯСМЁЯСМЁЯСМЁЯЩПЁЯЩПЁЯЩПЁЯТРЁЯТР
Pawan sir... Awesome questionsЁЯСМЁЯСМЁЯСМЁЯЩПЁЯЩПЁЯЩПЁЯТРЁЯТР
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1.
*_Motions....1-3 times in the mng till noon.....normal or soft consistancy....pt feels evacuated after this and no motions at all whatsoever food he takes after this....._*
ЁЯСЙ *This may be prakruta - if no symptoms, ignore.*
ЁЯСЙ Food isn't making difference in bowel habit. Here there is delayed evacuation. This is on the backdrop of slow metabolism - slow digestion - moderate (madhyama) to mild (manda) type of koshta. I feel *Kapha type of ajirna I.e. amajirna treatment holds good here* . If pitta symptoms are available and if the person shows high pitta, the same shall be addressed.
*Slow digestion is causing slow evacuation with breaks* .
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2
*_Motions....2-4 times a day......semisolid or more loose but has to apply pressure_*
ЁЯСЙ Let us think of *pravahika Chikitsa here or amajirna itself* . Semisolid and loose stools is more over directing towards pitta, but if pitta is involved, there may be more evacuation and effortless one too, like in atisara. But here applying pressure, points towards Vata involvement. So *pravahika Chikitsa makes sense*. Vata-pitta or Pitta-kapha involvement associated with ama and ajirna shall be considered. Tara Tama of doshas involved shall be accessed and predominant dosha, based on its symptoms shall be addressed.
Like - ✅more loose and less pressure - pitta Vata
✅More pressure and less loose - Vata pitta
✅Semisolid and less pressure - Kapha Vata
✅Semisolid and more pressure - Vata Kapha
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3.
*_Motion....only 1 to 2 times in the mng....normal in consistancy...... but has to sit in toilet for 20 to 30 mins_*
ЁЯСЙ Treat Vata, here gut behaviour seems to be on the backdrop of vishamagni (kadachit pachyate samyak, kadachit na pachyate). Looks krura koshta, but isn't. Clue is normal consistency.
Looking at the greater picture, I feel it is a case of *hyperactive Vata pulling Kapha from its seat to Apana sthana*. Like in ashayapakarsha. This Kapha travels through Agni / pitta sthana and causes mandagni. Kapha further blocks Apana function, of easy evacuation. Consider *kaphavruta Apana* (not classical, just to understand). Since Kapha is involved, consistency isn't changed. Since Vata is trapped, there is easy evacuation. Here, a *laxative with kshara* will definitely help. Initially treat mandagni. Later give a laxative mixed with kshara, like *Kalyana kshara*. It's my clinical experience.
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4
*_Motions......loose or semisolid..... after eating something.....pt cant hold this....has to rush......but without significant pain in abdomen_*
ЁЯСЙ *Grahani Chikitsa*. Consider Pittaja. Can think of *Vidagdhajirna* also. Here, the tikshnagni quickly digests food, many times in a hurried way, sometimes improperly. Lot of pitta is produced. Sara Guna of pitta quickly mobilizes digested or undigested food quickly downwards and causes quick and repeated evacuation. Vata also need to be addressed in the follow up.
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5.
*_Motions.....semisolid with severe pain many times jn the day night_*
ЁЯСЙ Due to severe pain, I ll go with *vataja Grahani Chikitsa*. Since there is semisolid stools, I may think of kaphaja Grahani if it were devoid of severe pain. *Kaphaja atisara / amajirna Chikitsa* may be thought of. *Annadrava shula* can also be considered.
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You are right sir. *Upashaya anupashaya* is the key for judging these conditions and to frame Chikitsa sutra.
*Tara Tama bhavas* of doshas need to be considered.
ЁЯСЙ Chikitsa of types of *ajirna* (generally in acute manifestations and those cases of short duration) and *agnimandya* forms first line of treatment. I hv seen most cases respond to these.
ЁЯСЙ *Chikitsa of atisara, Grahani and pravahika and their subtypes* , shula Chikitsa (generally in later and chronic cases)
ЁЯСЙ *Krimi Chikitsa* is a must inclusion at the beginning
ЁЯСЙ *Adhmana, Udavarta, avarana, ashayapakarsha, vilambika* can be considered in non responsive cases
ЁЯСЙ In each case *ajirna and Grahani Chikitsa* can be thought of to keep things simple
ЁЯСЙ We need to see if bowel habits are inherited, acquired or habituated. For this we HV to understand the *koshta* of the patient thoroughly.
ЁЯСЙ *Toilet training* may be the key in many cases, with counseling. Stress factor shall be ruled out. Shirodhara will hv to be included in these cases.
ЁЯСЙ Any *habits or addictions* need to be isolated. Incompatible foods, food combinations, food allergies etc should be ruled out. *Tracking the Nidana and it's parivarjana* is the key.
ЁЯСЙ Let's not miss out on addressing *mind factor*
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This is *my humble submission to your queries*. This is just my thought process and open for discussion.ЁЯЩПЁЯЩПЁЯЩПЁЯТРЁЯТР
[2/2, 09:32] Dr Himani Gour:
What a beautiful explanation sir....
What a beautiful explanation sir....
You have described every aspect of it. We are thankful for making us understand this so deeply.
ЁЯТРЁЯТРЁЯТР
[2/2, 09:33] Dr Himani Gour:
Sir what will be dose of kalyan kshar for the patient with same complain and with what laxative it should be given...?
Sir what will be dose of kalyan kshar for the patient with same complain and with what laxative it should be given...?
[2/2, 10:34] Dr Rahul Pathania: Superb explanation sirЁЯЩПЁЯП╗ЁЯЩПЁЯП╗
[2/2, 11:02] Shivali Arora KC: Nicely explained ЁЯСМ
[2/2, 11:24] Dr Surendra A Soni:
ЁЯСМЁЯСМЁЯЩП
ЁЯСМЁЯСМЁЯЩП
Excellent description !
Covered almost all aspects.
Raghu Sir !!
[2/2, 11:34] Dr Vinit Arora: ЁЯЩПЁЯЩП very much helpful
[2/2, 11:43] Deepak Bassi Dr: ЁЯСМЁЯП┐ЁЯСМЁЯП┐ЁЯЩПЁЯП┐
[2/2, 11:45] Samta Tomar Dr Jmngr: ЁЯСМЁЯП╗ЁЯСМЁЯП╗ЁЯЩПЁЯП╗
[2/2, 12:07] Dr Yogesh Gupta: ЁЯЩПЁЯП╗ЁЯЩПЁЯП╗ЁЯЩПЁЯП╗ЁЯМ╣ЁЯМ╣ЁЯМ╣
[2/2, 12:08] Dr. Ravikant Prajapati M. D, BHU.: ЁЯСМЁЯСМЁЯТРЁЯТРЁЯЩПЁЯЩПЁЯЩПЁЯЩП
[2/2, 12:08] Dr Kapil kapoor: Great Raghu Sir ЁЯЩПЁЯП╗ЁЯЩПЁЯП╗ЁЯТР
[2/2, 12:17] Dr Sidram Guled:
Very well elaborated amshamsha Kaplana...
Very well elaborated amshamsha Kaplana...
[2/2, 12:39] Dr Ranga prasad Bhat, Chennai:
Awesome understanding and explanation Raghu sir.ЁЯСМЁЯСН
Awesome understanding and explanation Raghu sir.ЁЯСМЁЯСН
[2/2, 12:46] Dr Jayshri Kulkarni, Latur: ЁЯЩПЁЯП╗ЁЯЩПЁЯП╗
[2/2, 12:51] Vd Raghuram Bhatta, Banguluru:
Thanks so much sirЁЯЩП
Thanks so much sirЁЯЩП
[2/2, 12:53] Dr Ranga prasad Bhat, Chennai:
As far as my observations in patients of IBS is concerned, the influence of faculty of mind is directly proportional to the varied rubric of symptoms mentioned.
As far as my observations in patients of IBS is concerned, the influence of faculty of mind is directly proportional to the varied rubric of symptoms mentioned.
Confused and fear filled mind due to vague thoughts hampering the mind caused by unknown and unidenfied (by the person who is inflicted with) fear. (In other words fear of unknown causes - be it over familial/social/personal planes) -
for
point no 1.
for
point no 1.
A shokha grasta mind - for point no
2.
2.
Chinta grasta mind -
for point no 3.
for point no 3.
Anxiety and agitated mind -
for point no 4.
for point no 4.
Anxiety filled person working overtime in zeal not following his biological clock of his time line with irregular food timing and sleep habit.
In either of cases the agni is disturbed with vishamata and so is the apAna vayu gati.
Inclusion of a tranquillising combination to pacify the mind faculty will be the arena to be concentrated and thought of. ЁЯдФ
[2/2, 12:53] Dr Bhadresh Nayak, Surat:
Very interesting debut
Very interesting debut
It's very difficult to understand vibandh
Each and very personal having a different opinions and thinking
Vaidhya has to make personal diognosis according to sign and symptoms
Your feedback so imporant key to understand sirЁЯЩПЁЯСМ
[2/2, 12:54] Dr Ranga prasad Bhat, Chennai: ЁЯЩПЁЯЩПЁЯЩПЁЯТРЁЯТРЁЯТР
[2/2, 12:56] Vd Raghuram Bhatta, Banguluru:
Thanks so much Bhadresh sirЁЯЩПЁЯЩП
Thanks so much Bhadresh sirЁЯЩПЁЯЩП
You are right, at last yukti plays a key role in understanding a given pathology and making diagnosis from their viewpointЁЯЩПЁЯЩП
[2/2, 13:01] Vd Raghuram Bhatta, Banguluru:
You can preferably give it with Avipatty churna. Or any other laxative of your choice, as per condition. See for kaphanubandha. Dose may vary from a pinch to few pinches to 1-2grams. You can give it individually too, mixed with honey. Ushnodaka may be used as post drink. Use for short duration.
Dr. Himani !
You can preferably give it with Avipatty churna. Or any other laxative of your choice, as per condition. See for kaphanubandha. Dose may vary from a pinch to few pinches to 1-2grams. You can give it individually too, mixed with honey. Ushnodaka may be used as post drink. Use for short duration.
Dr. Himani !
[2/2, 18:04] Dr. D C Katoch sir:
Weldon Sambhasha between Dr Pawan for his questions and Dr Raghuram for his answers! ЁЯТРЁЯТРЁЯТР
Weldon Sambhasha between Dr Pawan for his questions and Dr Raghuram for his answers! ЁЯТРЁЯТРЁЯТР
[2/2, 18:28] Dr Manu Vats, Patiala:
That's a Real Differential Diagnosis..
That's a Real Differential Diagnosis..
Pin pointed Queries raised by Pawan Sir and Equally very well described by RaghuRam SirЁЯТРЁЯТРThanks both of you ..
Your efforts are truly appreciable.
[2/2, 19:14] Dr Surendra A Soni:
Few physiological and marginal pathology conditions must be remembered in managing such cases regarding.
Few physiological and marginal pathology conditions must be remembered in managing such cases regarding.
few Lifestyle points are important to be observed that is mainly seen in point number
one.
Habit of
-late night dinner & sleeping
-delayed awakening
-delayed lunch breakfast dinner
-skipping lunch breakfast dinner
-smoking
-tobacco chewing alcoholism etc
r few factors responsible for irregular behaviour of intestine.
-excessive fibres in diet or absence of fibres in diet both condition will affect the intestinal behaviour.
- quantity of Spice and Sneha will also affect the intestinal behaviour.
-the concept of six rasas are equally effective or to be looked for intestinal behaviour.
- if madhuras is completely absence in diet definitely it is going to affect the intestine.
- if Katu tikt kashaya Rasas are dominant in diet with the absence of Sneha it is going to affect consistency of stool.
ЁЯЩП
[2/2, 19:56] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:
ЁЯСМЁЯСПЁЯСПЁЯТРЁЯЩП
ЁЯСМЁЯСПЁЯСПЁЯТРЁЯЩП
Absolutely brilliant analysis and suggestions Dr Raghu Ji.
I just read your reply cover to cover. Great analysis, as always.
You are indeed an original thinker in contemporary Ayurveda.
[2/2, 20:02] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey:
ЁЯСПЁЯСМЁЯТРЁЯЩП
ЁЯСПЁЯСМЁЯТРЁЯЩП
Very very novel thinking, Acharya.
These observations are gold standard indeed.
[2/2, 20:58] pawan madan Dr:
ЁЯЩПЁЯЩПЁЯЩПЁЯТРЁЯТРЁЯМ╣ЁЯМ╣
ЁЯЩПЁЯЩПЁЯЩПЁЯТРЁЯТРЁЯМ╣ЁЯМ╣
Thanks sir.
1.
*Delayed evacuation.....*ЁЯСН✅
But doing ajeerna chikitsaa .... not helping at all....and also no any syms of aamajeerna found.
*Treating on the lines of Malabadhataa helps in suchbcases*.
2.
*Tara tama examination of doshas....*✅
And giving Pravaahika chiktsaa like GRAAHI helps here in most cases.
*But few cases needs Anulomana with for ex haritaki..*.ЁЯШЙЁЯШК
3.
*Totally agree*
My clinical exp too.
4.
Most of such cases come from the category of various tyoes of *illieitis and colitis* abd pt suffers from recurrent syms of pain, disturbances in bowel movements.
*Grahani chikitsaa is perfectly needed here but some Ropan chiktsa is also needed*....otherwise only symptomatic results are achieved.....herbs like chandan, mathuyashti and lodhra helps in such cases.
5.
ЁЯСНЁЯСНЁЯСН
Thanks Raghu Ji for nice elaboration.
The purpose of putting these questions was...
ЁЯСЙЁЯП╗ *in many such cases we dont find Agnimandya.... although it should be there theoretically*
ЁЯСЙЁЯП╗ *adopting Agnivardhan or Agni correction is not giving results in most of such cases*
ЁЯСЙЁЯП╗ *Krimi chikitsa is my favourite line of treatment in suchbcases*
ЁЯСЙЁЯП╗ Toilet training is tooooo much necessary as you pointed.....like *not to make pressure for potty* and *not to stop pressure of potty* as well as *avoiding intake of excess water*
ЁЯСЙЁЯП╗ *Mind factor is a big one*. *In many such conditiins I just gave treatment to improve the Satva and it gave results....no deepan paachan geaahi or anuloman at all*.
*And this is a big number of cases.*
ЁЯМ╣ЁЯТРЁЯМ╣ЁЯТРЁЯМ╣
[2/2, 21:00] Dr Amol kadu NIA, Jaipur:
Nice questions by pawan sir and excellent explanation by raghuji sir.
Nice questions by pawan sir and excellent explanation by raghuji sir.
[2/2, 21:00] Dr Amol kadu NIA, Jaipur:
Here i want to on emphasize on hetu parivarjan chukisa.
Here i want to on emphasize on hetu parivarjan chukisa.
Most of the patient drink 3-4 glasses of water after waking up in morning which is the most common hetu.
[2/2, 21:02] pawan madan Dr:
Very true....bro...ЁЯСНЁЯСНЁЯСН
Very true....bro...ЁЯСНЁЯСНЁЯСН
All these points are valid and this is a big number of such cases.
As I mentioned the porpose of raising the query was ...... ajeern, aama, agni chikitsaa was not working in most of such cases and I need to try alternate chikitsaa sutra.
ЁЯСНЁЯСНЁЯСНЁЯЩПЁЯЩП
[2/2, 21:02] pawan madan Dr:
Yess...
Yess...
I pointed all these in my reply.
ЁЯЩП
[2/2, 21:03] Dr Amol kadu NIA, Jaipur:
рдиाрдо्рдмु рдкेрдпрдорд╢рдХ्рдд्рдпा рд╡ा рд╕्рд╡рд▓्рдкрдорд▓्рдкाрдЧ्рдиिрдЧुрд▓्рдоिрднिः॥резрей॥
рдиाрдо्рдмु рдкेрдпрдорд╢рдХ्рдд्рдпा рд╡ा рд╕्рд╡рд▓्рдкрдорд▓्рдкाрдЧ्рдиिрдЧुрд▓्рдоिрднिः॥резрей॥
рдкाрдг्рдбूрджрд░ाрддिрд╕ाрд░ाрд░्рд╢ोрдЧ्рд░рд╣рдгीрд╢ोрд╖рд╢ोрдеिрднिः।
рдЛрддे рд╢рд░рди्рдиिрджाрдШाрдн्рдпां рдкिрдмेрдд्рд╕्рд╡рд╕्рдеोрд╜рдкि рдЪाрд▓्рдкрд╢ः॥резрек॥
[2/2, 21:04] Dr Amol kadu NIA, Jaipur:
ЁЯЩПЁЯЩПi missed it to read it.
ЁЯЩПЁЯЩПi missed it to read it.
[2/2, 21:10] pawan madan Dr:
ЁЯСНЁЯСНЁЯСНЁЯСН
ЁЯСНЁЯСНЁЯСНЁЯСН
Very true...
Dr. Soni !
Now I am working on all of your points.
When deepan paachan graahi chikitsaa failed in such cases then my attention was finding all such causes plus mwntal causes.
Thanks.
Now will go into more detailed history of such cases to find such factors.
[2/2, 21:17] Dr Pankaj Chhayani:
Dealing with AharParinamakara bhava is always helpful.
Dealing with AharParinamakara bhava is always helpful.
Ushma
Vayu
Klaeda
Sneha
Kala
Samyoga
[2/2, 21:22] Dr Surendra A Soni:
Kalp/rasayan chikitsa is best solution with restricted diet and lifestyle to regulate as well as rejuvenate the intestinal tone when patient is symptom free after right management.
Kalp/rasayan chikitsa is best solution with restricted diet and lifestyle to regulate as well as rejuvenate the intestinal tone when patient is symptom free after right management.
[2/2, 21:25] Dr. D C Katoch sir:
Very nice experiential inputs sharing. Here I would like to recommend to see f├▓r amount of fibre ├мntake and timings of meals & sleep if agni, kshudha, pachan shakti and aahar matra are stated to be normal. Interplay of fibre content in meals and type of kosth determines the kind/frequency of evacuation and consistency of stools.
Very nice experiential inputs sharing. Here I would like to recommend to see f├▓r amount of fibre ├мntake and timings of meals & sleep if agni, kshudha, pachan shakti and aahar matra are stated to be normal. Interplay of fibre content in meals and type of kosth determines the kind/frequency of evacuation and consistency of stools.
[2/2, 21:26] Vd Raghuram Bhatta, Banguluru:
My pleasure sirЁЯЩП
My pleasure sirЁЯЩП
I am also in total agreement if the subtle points you hv noted, tried to discriminate and diagnose as a true clinicianЁЯЩПЁЯСПЁЯСПЁЯСМЁЯТР
As you mentioned, agnimandhya may not be available in many cases but they might hv got latent after manifestation of disease related symptoms. Here *agnimandhya can be seen as a cause and not effect*. We can remember *vid sanga* as a purvarupa of *atisara* which are contrasting symptoms.
*We can also see the beauty of Ayurveda formulations*ЁЯТРЁЯТР
They are extremely comprehensive. *Many compounds are a mix up of deepana, pachana, srotoshodhana, sramsana or grahi, Rasayana etc*
Ex - Amritottaram Kashayam is a combo of *haritaki, Amruta and nagara*... Though it's given in Jwara often, skilfully used it can be used in many disorders. This is only an example.
We also should include *Rasayana and role of Vasti* in preventing recurrences. Toilet training was explained in Ayurveda long back... *vegadharana*
Thanks for creating a scope for this discussion sirЁЯЩПЁЯЩП
[2/2, 21:27] pawan madan Dr:
ЁЯЩПЁЯЩП
ЁЯЩПЁЯЩП
Will take care of these factors in future.
[2/2, 21:32] Vd Raghuram Bhatta, Banguluru:
Good one gurujiЁЯЩПЁЯЩПЁЯСМЁЯТР
Good one gurujiЁЯЩПЁЯЩПЁЯСМЁЯТР
*Sleep...yes*ЁЯСПЁЯСМ
We can find people working night shifts being culprits of these issues, one or the other.
I always advise all patients to *set up the biological clock first*
First *dinner and it's spacing with sleep should be planned*... Early dinner, right spacing with sleep time... *when followed regularly and religiously* will set the biological clock. Wake up time, breakfast time, lunch time, bowel habits...everything will adjust by itself... automatically. *Body-mind is a super combo*. If we fine tune one, the other will come in lineЁЯЩПЁЯЩП
Hon'ble Katoch Sir !
Hon'ble Katoch Sir !
[2/2, 21:33] pawan madan Dr:
ЁЯСНЁЯСНЁЯСНЁЯСН
ЁЯСНЁЯСНЁЯСНЁЯСН
ЁЯТРЁЯТР
Yukti is always important and this yukti is always different in different cases.
True...agnimaandya could be cause......but then.....we need to apply chikitsaa sutra as per the present picture.
But this agnimaandya as hetu.... doesnt hold any significance in terms of treatment.
This is because I always find that Hetu vipreeta chikitsa is the ultimate apunarbhav chikitsa. And as per the context ....maanas dosha comes out to be imp hetus......
Thanks for such a nice discussion.
ЁЯТРЁЯМ╣ЁЯТР
[2/2, 21:38] Vd Raghuram Bhatta, Banguluru:
ЁЯСМЁЯСМЁЯСМЁЯЩПЁЯЩП
ЁЯСМЁЯСМЁЯСМЁЯЩПЁЯЩП
*Yukti..yes* that's the key for situational understanding and management... application of Chikitsa sutra as per current picture
Manas...many times is the boss...the messup makerЁЯШД
[2/2, 21:41] Vd Raghuram Bhatta, Banguluru:
Thanks for encouraging words sirЁЯЩПЁЯЩПЁЯЩП
Thanks for encouraging words sirЁЯЩПЁЯЩПЁЯЩП
This platform *KS* itself is so inspirational...gives impetus for all these discussions. *A lovely classroom*ЁЯЩП❤
[2/2, 21:42] Vd Raghuram Bhatta, Banguluru:
Awesome summary of nidanas ! Soni sir...ЁЯТРЁЯСПЁЯСПЁЯСМЁЯЩП
Awesome summary of nidanas ! Soni sir...ЁЯТРЁЯСПЁЯСПЁЯСМЁЯЩП
[2/2, 21:47] pawan madan Dr:
Dr Raghu Ji
Dr Raghu Ji
Here I would like to fraw your attention towards Kaphaja atisaar.
Have you got some cases like this ?
[2/2, 21:51] Vd Raghuram Bhatta, Banguluru:
Yes sir. I hv mentioned atisara in my reply, but missed out on kaphaja... that was in the back of my mind... thanks for reminding. Get to see very less of atisara cases in my clinics, but hv found few patients presenting with kaphaja atisara type of complaints. I mean finger countable.
Yes sir. I hv mentioned atisara in my reply, but missed out on kaphaja... that was in the back of my mind... thanks for reminding. Get to see very less of atisara cases in my clinics, but hv found few patients presenting with kaphaja atisara type of complaints. I mean finger countable.
[2/2, 21:55] pawan madan Dr:
If we examine the picture explained in charak for kaphaja atisaar sometimes we may put a question....weather practically this is a kind of atisaar or not...ЁЯШЙЁЯдФ
If we examine the picture explained in charak for kaphaja atisaar sometimes we may put a question....weather practically this is a kind of atisaar or not...ЁЯШЙЁЯдФ
[2/2, 22:02] Vd Raghuram Bhatta, Banguluru:
*Charaka's atisara, Grahani and Arshas* are in such details that I too wondered sometimes regarding the listing of complaints.
*Charaka's atisara, Grahani and Arshas* are in such details that I too wondered sometimes regarding the listing of complaints.
Most times we *diagnose diseases on the basis of nirukti or paribhasha* of a disease, sometimes in description of Samprapti, other diseases on basis of symptoms.
When listing of symptoms are lengthy, we take *safer ways*.
*Studying the diseases on the basis of Charakokta symptoms is challenging*, in many cases I feel it's impossible to be frank.
*Due respect to Acharya charaka and salutes to his subtle observations* about wide range of clinical presentations if a given case or subtype of a disease. ЁЯЩПЁЯТР
[2/2, 22:03] Dr Deepak Saxena, Kurukshetra: ЁЯСМЁЯСМЁЯСМЁЯСМЁЯСМЁЯТРЁЯТРЁЯТРЁЯЩПSir
[2/2, 22:05] Prof Mamata Bhagwat:
Your query is genuine Pawan Bhai,
Your query is genuine Pawan Bhai,
Kaphaja atisara is
Atisara Kam pravakika jyada andaz karna chahiye.
Pravahana is the feature to justify it.
рдк्рд░рд╡ृрдж्рдз рд╡ाрдд being obstructed by рдк्рд░рд╡ृрдж्рдз рдХрдл as explained by A. Sushrutha is similar to that of Kaphaja atisara as explained by A Charaka.
[2/2, 22:06] pawan madan Dr:
But still I see that we can find such conditions.
But still I see that we can find such conditions.
The need is to see broadly.
Any one type includes many different conditions.
Need to keep track of all symptoms in a collective manner.
As A day beore Dr Narinder ji made a nidaan of Vaataj Grahmi in a diagnosed case of Sjogren symdrome.
It was awesome.
I have experienced many such cases.
Thats why I pointed kaphaj atisaar.
[2/2, 22:10] pawan madan Dr:
ЁЯСНЁЯСНЁЯЩПЁЯЩП
ЁЯСНЁЯСНЁЯЩПЁЯЩП
Picchilam aamama tantum.....
Anubadha shoolam alpama alpam abheeksham..
Sometimes....point to IBS .D or sometimes to inflammatory bowel disease...
[2/2, 22:11] pawan madan Dr:
And its cardinal feature...
And its cardinal feature...
Krite api akrita feeling...
..is very common in clinical picture of todays lifestyle...
[2/2, 22:15] Dr. D C Katoch sir:
Unfortunately these factors can not be corrected by medicines but such patients always look for medicines without putting any effort to change their eating, sleeping habits and so the biological clock continues to remain uncorrected.
Unfortunately these factors can not be corrected by medicines but such patients always look for medicines without putting any effort to change their eating, sleeping habits and so the biological clock continues to remain uncorrected.
[2/2, 22:15] Dr Surendra A Soni:
Right Madam !ЁЯСМЁЯСН
Right Madam !ЁЯСМЁЯСН
Charak just mentioned the pravahika as a symptom, not described it with samprapti like Sushruta.
[2/2, 22:16] Vd Raghuram Bhatta, Banguluru:
Indeed yes. We can find such conditions. No doubt. But how many of us see things in a broader way? It's impossible to consider all symptoms explained classically. *We need to pick pradhana lakahanas and clues*. If we really go according to Shastra, we may spend a day or week in diagnosing one condition. Hardly two. If we are doing research, it's justified. Not in clinical practice.
Indeed yes. We can find such conditions. No doubt. But how many of us see things in a broader way? It's impossible to consider all symptoms explained classically. *We need to pick pradhana lakahanas and clues*. If we really go according to Shastra, we may spend a day or week in diagnosing one condition. Hardly two. If we are doing research, it's justified. Not in clinical practice.
I agree with your second point, like *one type includes many different conditions*.
But *tracking all symptoms as per classical ref is not possible*...many times...
How many of us hv diagnosed *Sannipataja Jwara* in the basis of classical symptoms. *Have we enlisted the entire symptoms mentioned by Acharyas before treating them?*
*I bet no*
*Tracking most symptoms or important symptoms is reasonable*. The less predominant symptoms will be handled while doing *Vyadhi pratyaneeka Chikitsa*...since we are handling the roots of the disease.
[2/2, 22:16] pawan madan Dr:
Chakrapaani here mentions one word...
Chakrapaani here mentions one word...
Vibadho alpo....
It is atisaar but patient feels constipated.
Seems inyeresting.
And here if one applies vibandha chikitsaa....everything gets disturbed....
[2/2, 22:18] Vd Raghuram Bhatta, Banguluru:
ЁЯСМЁЯСМЁЯСМЁЯЩП
ЁЯСМЁЯСМЁЯСМЁЯЩП
*When in crisis of diagnosis...play safe...run to Madhava Nidana*ЁЯШД
[2/2, 22:18] Dr Surendra A Soni:
*'рдХृрддेsрдкिsрдХृрддрд╢реЬ्рдХः ।'*
*'рдХृрддेsрдкिsрдХृрддрд╢реЬ्рдХः ।'*
Classical by Acharya Charak.
[2/2, 22:19] Vd Raghuram Bhatta, Banguluru:
True sir. These patients are really challenging. ЁЯЩПЁЯЩП
True sir. These patients are really challenging. ЁЯЩПЁЯЩП
[2/2, 22:19] Prof Mamata Bhagwat:
This is how Pravahana manifests. Feels the urge but cannot evacuate.
This is how Pravahana manifests. Feels the urge but cannot evacuate.
This *Aati nahi* (ЁЯдкЁЯШЖ muafi ke liye shukr guzar !) will force him to do Kunthana.
[2/2, 22:20] Dr Surendra A Soni: ЁЯШДЁЯСН
[2/2, 22:20] pawan madan Dr:
✅
✅
In many cases its ok.
But when we come to various syndroms....really it takes a day to me for making a diagnosis and I really take time before starting the actial treatment.
ЁЯШЕЁЯШЕЁЯШЙЁЯШЙ
[2/2, 22:22] Prof Mamata Bhagwat:
This is feature of incomplete evacuation.
This is feature of incomplete evacuation.
It's a neurological feature developing due to inflammation present in the rectal region.
[2/2, 22:22] Vd Raghuram Bhatta, Banguluru:
✅✅✅true sir.
✅✅✅true sir.
I too have *never prescribed medicines on the day of consultation*... I ll take time, *my patients have been obliging over a period of time...know my pattern*.
[2/2, 22:25] Dr Ranga prasad Bhat, Chennai:
ЁЯСМЁЯСМЁЯСМ
ЁЯСМЁЯСМЁЯСМ
Vagus nerve irritation is the culprit.
[2/2, 22:29] Dr Surendra A Soni:
Exudative mucous is mainly responsible for this.
Exudative mucous is mainly responsible for this.
[2/2, 22:34] pawan madan Dr:
Kaise sir ?
Kaise sir ?
[2/2, 22:34] Dr Surendra A Soni:
Results of inflammation. ..
Results of inflammation. ..
As seen in dysentery.
[2/2, 22:38] pawan madan Dr: ЁЯЩП
[2/2, 22:47] Dr. D C Katoch sir:
Actual treatment ???
Actual treatment ???
[2/2, 22:48] pawan madan Dr:
ЁЯШКЁЯШКЁЯШЕЁЯШЕ
ЁЯШКЁЯШКЁЯШЕЁЯШЕ
sir actual treatment means..
Right Nidaan
Right chikitsaa sitra application..
ЁЯЩПЁЯЩП
[2/2, 22:52] Dr. D C Katoch sir:
рдЪिрдХिрдд्рд╕ा рддो рдЪिрдХिрдд्рд╕ा рд╣ै- actual рдпा virtual рдпा provisional рдХुрдЫ рднी рдирд╣ीं । рдЕрдЧрд░ рд╣ो рдЧрдИ рддो рдЪिрдХिрдд्рд╕ा рд╣ै, рдирд╣ीं рддो рдЪिрдХिрдд्рд╕ा рдХैрд╕ी।
рдЪिрдХिрдд्рд╕ा рддो рдЪिрдХिрдд्рд╕ा рд╣ै- actual рдпा virtual рдпा provisional рдХुрдЫ рднी рдирд╣ीं । рдЕрдЧрд░ рд╣ो рдЧрдИ рддो рдЪिрдХिрдд्рд╕ा рд╣ै, рдирд╣ीं рддो рдЪिрдХिрдд्рд╕ा рдХैрд╕ी।
[2/2, 22:58] Dr. D C Katoch sir:
рдаीрдХ рд╣ै рднाрдИ, рдкрд░ рдЕрд╕ाрдз्рдпрддा рдХा рдЬрд░ुрд░ рдз्рдпाрди рд░рдЦा рдХрд░ो। рдРрд╕ी рд╕्рдеिрддि рдоें рд▓рдХ्рд╖рдгों рдХा рд╢рдорди рдпा рдиिрдпрди्рдд्рд░рдг рд╣ी рдЪिрдХिрдд्рд╕ा рд╣ै।
рдаीрдХ рд╣ै рднाрдИ, рдкрд░ рдЕрд╕ाрдз्рдпрддा рдХा рдЬрд░ुрд░ рдз्рдпाрди рд░рдЦा рдХрд░ो। рдРрд╕ी рд╕्рдеिрддि рдоें рд▓рдХ्рд╖рдгों рдХा рд╢рдорди рдпा рдиिрдпрди्рдд्рд░рдг рд╣ी рдЪिрдХिрдд्рд╕ा рд╣ै।
[2/2, 23:06] Prof Mamata Bhagwat:
Pravriddha Kapha obstructing pravriddha Vata.
Pravriddha Kapha obstructing pravriddha Vata.
Inflammation ➡mucosal discharge➡ neurological irritation➡ sense of incomplete evacuation➡ Pravahana
[2/2, 23:16] Dr Surendra A Soni:
ЁЯЩПЁЯЩП
ЁЯЩПЁЯЩП
*рд╡ाрдпुः рдк्рд░рд╡ृрдж्рдзो* рдиिрдЪिрддं рдмрд▓ाрд╕ं рдиुрджрдд्рдпрдзрд╕्рддाрджрд╣िрддाрд╢рдирд╕्рдп ।
рдк्рд░рд╡ाрд╣рдоाрдгрд╕्рдп рдоुрд╣ुрд░्рдорд▓ाрдХ्рддं рдк्рд░рд╡ाрд╣िрдХां рддां рдк्рд░рд╡рджрди्рддि рддрдЬ्рдЬ्рдЮाः ।।резрейрео।।
Dalhan
рдиिрдЪिрддं рд╕рдЮ्рдЪрдпрдк्рд░ाрдк्рддं, рдмрд▓ाрд╕ं рд╢्рд▓ेрд╖्рдоाрдгं, рдиुрджрддि рдк्рд░ेрд░рдпрддि, рдЕрдзрд╕्рддाрдж् рдЧुрджрдоाрд░्рдЧे, рдк्рд░рд╡ाрд╣рдоाрдгрд╕्рдп рдк्рд░ेрд░्рдпрдоाрдгрд╕्рдп, рдоुрд╣ुः рд╡ाрд░ंрд╡ाрд░ं, рдорд▓ाрдХ्рддрдо् рдИрд╖рдд्рдкुрд░ीрд╖рдоिрд╢्рд░ं, "рд╢्рд▓ेрд╖्рдоाрдгं" рдЗрддि рд╢ेрд╖ः; рдПрддेрдиैрддрджुрдХ्рддं рднрд╡рддि- рдпрдд्рд░ рд░ोрдЧे рд╡ाрддрдк्рд░ेрд░िрддं рдХрдлं рдкुрд░ुрд╖ः рдк्рд░ेрд░рдпрддि, рддां рдк्рд░рд╡ाрд╣िрдХां рдХрдлं рдк्рд░рд╡ाрд╣рдоाрдгрд╕्рдп рдк्рд░ेрд░्рдпрдоाрдгрд╕्рдп рддрдЬ्рдЬ्рдЮाः рдк्рд░рд╡рджрди्рддीрддि рд╕рдо्рдмрди्рдзः। рдмрд▓ाрд╕рдоिрдд्рдпुрдкрд▓рдХ्рд╖рдгं, рддेрди рдкिрдд्рддं рд░рдХ्рддं рд╡ा рдиिрдЪिрддрдоिрддि рдЬ्рдЮेрдпрдо्।।резрейрео।।
[2/3, 00:00] Vd. Subhash Sharma Ji Delhi:
*рдЗрд╕ group discussion рдХे рдЖрдЧे рд╕рднी work shops рдФрд░ seminars рдЫोрдЯी рд╣ैं।*
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*рдЗрд╕ group discussion рдХे рдЖрдЧे рд╕рднी work shops рдФрд░ seminars рдЫोрдЯी рд╣ैं।*
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Above discussion held on 'Kaysampraday" a Famous WhatsApp-discussion-group of well known Vaidyas from all over the India.
Compiled & edited by
Dr.Surendra A. Soni
M.D.,PhD (KC)
Associate Professor
DEPT. OF KAYACHIKITSA
Govt. Ayurveda College
Vadodara GUJARAT, India.
Email: surendraasoni@gmail.com
Mobile No. +91 9408441150
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