WDS 78: ' VATARAKTA' & 'FUFFUSA' by Prof. Giriraj Sharma, Dr. Pawan Madaan, Vd. Raghuram Shastri, Dr. Ashwini Kumar Sood, Vaidyaraja Subhash Sharma, Dr. D. C. Katoch, Dr. Shashi Jindal, Vd. Hiten Vaja, Dr. Sukhveer Verma & Others.

[12/12, 8:11 AM] Prof Giriraj Sharma: 

*वातरक्त एवं फुफ्फुसीय विकृति* 

क्षमा चाहूंगा ,,,,

ये विषय बहुत ही अजीबोगरीब है पर स्वभावतः मन को नही रोक पा रहा हूँ ।

*रक्तफेन फुफ्फुस* 

*वात एवं रक्त से फुफ्फुस का निर्माण बार बार वातरक्त एवं रक्त जन्य व्याधियों में फुफ्फुस का परस्पर सम्बद्घता, हेतु, लक्षण या चिकित्सा के संदर्भ में*

1 क्या वात रक्त में फुफ्फुस जन्य या फुफ्फुसीय व्याधियों में वात रक्त सम्बन्धित कोई हेतु, लक्षण, या चिकित्सा का संकेत है ।

2 वात रक्त में रक्त की अवस्था (धातवाग्नि पाक) कैसी होती है ,,,

 वातरक्त में यूरिक एसीड का बढ़ना एक लक्षण है आधुनिक आयुर्वेद चिकित्सक यूरिक एसिड की बढ़ी मात्रा में प्रायः वातरक्त की चिकित्सा सिद्धान्त का प्रयोग करते है ।

पलमोनरी डिजीज, पल्मोनरी ऑब्सट्रक्टिव डिजीज में यूरिक एसिड का बढ़ना,,,,,

कैशोर गुग्गुल आदि वातरक्त रोगाधिकार योगों का प्रयोग  पलमोनरी डिसीज में करना प्रयुक्त करके हम आशु परिणाम प्राप्त कर सकते है ,,,,

आप विद्वजन समुदाय से निवेदन है कि सैद्धांतिक, व्यवहारिक, एव अनुभवजन्य एवं नवाचार चिकित्सा के विषय मे चिंतन करे ।

🌷🌷🌷🙏🏼🌷🌷🌷🌷

[12/12, 8:42 AM] Hiten Vaja Dr ADI:

 Vd. Girirajji👌👍

Aushadh yog ..

Lakshnodaharanarth hai...

Vastvik chikitsa ka rup...

Samprapti vighatanmev chikitsa..

Karte hai to ek hi aushadh vividh rog me prayukt kar sakte hai...

Aushadh sankhya evam matra kam ho jati hai aur MARGIN badh jata hai..😃

Guggulu se gamitva ka labh le kar, uske saath sanlagna ya vahit aushadho ka upayog vividh sammurchhana dur karne hetu upayog kar sakte hai..

Copd ILD aadi me bhi kaishor, simhanad, trayodashang ka upayog kiya hai...👍

[12/12, 8:43 AM] Vaidya Hiten Vaja:

 Hridayasya rasadinam dhatunam chopshoshno...

Shwas hriday me hota hai...

Ayurvedik hriday =

Heart+Lungs...

[12/12, 11:35 PM] Vaidyaraj Subhash Sharma, Delhi: 

*आचार्य गिरिराज जी, उत्कृष्ट और अतिविचारणीय चिंतन है आपका, कुछ विषय इतने गंभीर होते है कि तुरंत प्रतिक्रिया ना दे कर व्यवहारिक और clinical experience के साथ उत्तर देने की इच्छा होती है चाहे परिणाम मिले या ना मिले, आपके इस विषय को गंभीरता से लिया है और आने वाले समय में फुफ्फुस जन्य व्याधियां और वात रक्त में रोगियों में धात्वाग्नि पाक पर अनुभव जन्य पक्ष अवश्य present करूंगा क्योंकि दोनों व्याधियों से संबंधित अनेक रोगियों की चिकित्सा चल रही है।*

             🙏💐🌺🌹

[12/12, 11:57 PM] Vaidyaraj Subhash Sharma, Delhi: 

*वातरक्त में रक्त की अवस्था अर्थात धात्वाग्निपाक कैसे होता है ? से पूर्व तो महत्वपूर्ण भूताग्नियों द्वारा आहार गुणों का परिपाक है, पंचभूतों की अपनी अपनी अग्नियां पांचों आहार गुणों का पाचन कर आहार के गुणों को परिवर्तित कर शरीर में आत्मसात् करने योग्य बनाती है । ये महत्वपूर्ण इसलिये है कि यहां आश्रय आश्रयी भाव से पार्थिव आहार गुण प्रधान पदार्थ पार्थिव देहगुण मांस धातु का ही पोषण करेंगे और अन्य द्रव्यों का निर्माण नहीं करेंगें । अत: इसका आरंभ तो भूताग्नियों द्वारा आहार के गुणों का परिपाक से ही आरंभ हो जाता है ।*

[12/13, 8:48 AM] Dr Shashi Jindal:

 Very good morning sir🙏🏼I am going to give a pre nursery level hypothesis. See when we boil milk, there is formation of foam (?kaf), it is somewhat fatty.  But when we keep it on simmer, a thick but porous layer of foam mixed with fats is formed, we may compare it with structure of spongy lungs. As Lecithin and Sphyngomyeline  both lung surfactants are compounds of amino acids and fatty acids. Vaat rakta and rakta phaina may be related ???

[12/13, 9:12 AM] Prof Giriraj Sharma: 

सुप्रभातम 

वातरक्त निदान, चिकित्सा में वर्तमान प्रायः आयुर्वेद चिकित्सक यूरिक एसिड को प्रमाण मानकर ही चिकित्सा करते है ।

1.यूरिक एसिड एवं वातरक्त का आयुर्वेद मतानुसार किस सम्प्राप्ति से ऐसा माना जाता है,  यूरिक एसिड के निर्माण में  रक्त की क्या भूमिका है''''?

2.वात एवं रक्त जन्य व्याधि को वात रक्त कहा है उसी प्रकार वात (फेन) रक्त से फुफ्फुस का निर्माण होता है ,,,

3.  प्रायः यूरिक एसिड को वातरक्त का एक लक्षण मानकर आधुनिक परिप्रेक्ष्य में चिकित्सा करते है परिणाम भी मिलते हैं, सभी प्रेजेंटेड वातरक्त केस में निदानार्थ यूरिक एसिड का डायग्नोसिस भी करवाते है,,

*बढा हुआ यूरिक एसीड, क्रोनिक, ऑब्स्ट्रीक्ट पल्मोनरी डिजीज में भी  मिलता है ,,,,,,*

चिंतन का विषय यह है कि रक्तवात में यह रक्त एवं वात व्याधि लक्षण के साथ मेटाबोलिक एबनॉर्मलटिज की सम्प्राप्ति कैसे बन रही है ,,,,, 

प्यूरिन से यूरिक एसिड के निर्माण में रक्त एवं वात की क्या भूमिका है ,,,?

क्रोनिक पल्मोनरी डिजीज में भी यूरिक एसिड बढ़ा हुआ मिलता है ,,,,,,,,

क्या क्रोनिक पल्मोनरी डिजीज में वातरक्त सम्प्राप्ति विघटन से करके चिकित्सा फलदायी हो सकती है ,,,,

🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🌷🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼

[12/13, 9:16 AM] Prof Giriraj Sharma: 

Serum uric acid is increased in respiratory disease, especially in the presence of hypoxia and systemic inflammation. We evaluated serum uric acid as a biomarker for prediction of mortality and future acute exacerbation of chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (AECOPD).

A high uric acid level is known as hyperuricemia. This can lead to a disease called gout that causes painful joints that accumulate urate crystals. It can also make your blood and urine too acidic.

[12/13, 9:27 AM] Prof. Surendra A. Soni: 

You have initiated a great discussion and we shall focus on it continuously as we did in meda & vrikka discussion which ended with great reply by Arun Sir.

Prof. Giriraj ji !!

🙏🏻🌹

[12/13, 9:32 AM] Prof Giriraj Sharma: 

Dear sir,,,

My query regarding to सम्प्राप्ति विधटन and चिकित्सा of वातरक्त May useful in Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease....?

[12/13, 9:32 AM] Dr Shashi Jindal: 

https://www.arthritis-health.com/types/gout/what-are-purines

[12/13, 9:37 AM] pawan madan Dr: 

नमस्ते सर

एक शंका है।

You are relating COPD and Gout or / hyperuricemia through raised s uric acid levels.

Vaatarakta being a different scenario.

Some vaatarakta cases may have high uric acid but it's only a part.

So we need to be clear about this first.

Or

If we need to compare and relate vaatarakta and COPD like presentations, we need to think if the hetus of such COPD like conditions are same

Or

Do they manifest similar samprati?

If yes

Then certainly chikitsa sutra of Vaatarakta can be used for COPD like conditions.

[12/13, 9:43 AM] Dr. Arun Rathi, Akola: 

Prof. Dr.Girirajji !

*नमस्कार*

*Role of Lung in Metabolism is now being investigated and very hot topic for research.*

*Lungs and Respiratory Tract has approximately 40 types of different cell in their parenchymal tissue*

*Your thought process is very scientific and also based on Ayurvedic Principles.*

👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻🌹🌹🌹👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

[12/13, 9:44 AM] Dr. R S. Soni, Delhi:

 यहां वातरक्त के उपद्रवों में श्वास, मोह, हिक्का, भ्रम आदि दिए हैं, जो COPD में  भी मिलते हैं।🤔

🙏आचार्य गिरीरराज जी🌹

[12/13, 9:44 AM] Vd V. B. Pandey Basti U. P: 

As per shastriya mat Vaat rakta and gout or even Pran vanha srot as rog may be proven as of same samprati but as per clinical presentation and tt it's entirely different.🙏

[12/13, 9:46 AM] pawan madan Dr: 

Arun ji

Can u please help to reveal the relation of metabolism in lungs and gout ?

[12/13, 9:46 AM] Dr. Arun Rathi, Akola: 

👆🏻👆🏻 ArticleArticl related with parenchymal cells of Lungs.

[12/13, 9:52 AM] Prof Giriraj Sharma:

 नमस्कार आचार्य,,,

*महास्रोत नाम फुफ्फुस*

आपकी बात से पूर्ण सहमत हूँ

फुफ्फुस उस जेठानी की तरह है जिसे हर कार्य करना आता है परन्तु वो सारे कार्य अपनी देवरानियों से करवाती है ।

इनके किये गए कार्य के हित अहित से    फुफ्फुस प्रभावित होते ही है ,,,,

कहीं उपद्रव के रूप में ,,, कहीं लक्षण के रूप में,,,,

मुझे लगता है 

*महास्रोतस नाम फुफ्फुस*

[12/13, 9:54 AM] Dr. Ramteerth Sharma, Ujjain: 

आचार्य गिर्राज शर्मा जी ने वात रक्त और फुफ्फुस के बारे में अपना विषय रखा था ।

उसका निर्माण रक्त फेन के द्वारा बताया है। आचार्य गिर्राज जी स्वयं शारीर के विद्वान हैं और उन्होंने फेन को वात दोष के समकक्ष माना है ।

परंतु मेरी मति के अनुसार फैन कफ का मल अथवा सधर्मी अंश होना चाहिए।

इस दृष्टि से वायु के स्थान पर कफ के फेन और रक्त के द्वारा उसका निर्माण अधिक प्रतीत होता है।

 अतः सभी विद्वानों के समक्ष उसके निर्माण में वायु की भूमिका अथवा कफ साधर्मी फैन की भूमिका ।

यह भी चिंतनीय है।

 यदि मूल रूप से चिंतन सही दिशा में होगा तो आगे भी बुद्धि विलास की आवश्यकता नहीं पड़ेगी ।

[12/13, 9:56 AM] Dr. Arun Rathi, Akola:

 *Good Morning Pawanji*

*It's very vast subject ,if we want to understand this subject,then basic knowledge of role of lungs and respiratory system in metabolism is must.*

*I am still going to learn this subject.*

*But I can assure you its very scientific and can co- relate with Ayurvedic principles.*

🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

[12/13, 9:58 AM] pawan madan Dr: 

🙏🙏

महतबापूर्ण विचारणीय।

[12/13, 9:58 AM] pawan madan Dr: 

जी सर

धन्यवाद

[12/13, 9:58 AM] Dr Sukhveer Verma: 

फुफ्फुस जन्य व्याधियों यथा श्वास में व वातरक्त दोनो में आचार्य ने विरेचन का प्रयोग किया है।

फुफ्फुस जन्य व्याधि ILD को तो वातरक्त की चिकित्सा के अनुसार ही चिकित्सा की जाती है 

लेकिन अनेक फुफ्फुस जन्य विकारों में उष्ण तीक्ष्ण औषधियों का प्रयोग किया जाता है जोकि वातरक्त चिकित्सा विरोधी हो सकती है

[12/13, 9:59 AM] Prof Giriraj Sharma: 

The lungs perform several metabolic functions including gas exchange, conversion of angiotensin I to angiotensin II by angiotensin converting enzyme (ACE), inactivation of vasoactive substances, and *protein synthesis*. Angiotensin converting enzyme is found on the surface of capillary endothelial cells in the lungs.

[12/13, 10:00 AM] Dr. Ravikant Prajapati M. D, BHU.: 

yeh shanka mere bhi mann me chal rahi thi... Guruvar Margdarshan karein🙏🙏

[12/13, 10:01 AM] pawan madan Dr: 

Yes sir.

I am aware of these.

But still copd and vaatrakt remains the issue...

[12/13, 10:04 AM] pawan madan Dr: 

*The following copy paste shows there is relation of uric acid increase in copd like conditions*.

*This is something like raised ESR or raised CRP in inflammatory diseases.*

*Or this is like increased TROPONIN in some cardiac disorders*

*Or this is like increased uric acid in CKD*.

👉🏻👉🏻👉🏻🤔🤔

Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) is one of the leading causes of morbidity and mortality with increasing prevalence worldwide. An acute exacerbation of COPD (AECOPD) is characterised by a significant change in symptoms that is acute in onset and may warrant a change in regular medication[1]. Some COPD patients are particularly susceptible to exacerbations, and this has a negative impact on survival [2]. Serum uric acid is the final product of purine degradation [3], 

which increases significantly during hypoxia [4]. Elevated uric acid levels have been associated with the presence of systemic inflammation [5] and increased cardiovascular risk [6]. 

In this context, increased levels of uric acid have been shown in respiratory disorders, including obstructive sleep apnoea [7] and pulmonary hypertension [8]. In COPD, cigarette smoke induces oxidative stress and lung inflammation, resulting in lung tissue damage and decline of pulmonary function [1].  Impairment of pulmonary function reduces oxygen intake, resulting in tissue hypoxia which is more prominent during AECOPD. Serum uric acid levels have been associated with the presence of airflow obstruction in a general population in Japan [9],  whereas a small cross-sectional study showed significant associations between serum uric acid to creatinine ratio and spirometry values and dyspnoea in COPD patients [10].
 Despite the above evidence, to date, no study has evaluated the role of uric acid levels on admission for acute exacerbations of COPD on the outcome of exacerbation and the long-term survival and exacerbation frequency of COPD patients.

[12/13, 10:05 AM] Dr Sukhveer Verma: 

Metabolic activity took place in every part of body

[12/13, 10:06 AM] Dr Sukhveer Verma: 

So Ayurveda Aama chikitsa concept is fruitful

[12/13, 10:10 AM] Pawan mali Dr.:  

Yes sir...this is important aspect for clinical purpose...it remind me a case Of ILD.....I had visited a patient two year back ..wife of one of allopath doctors who is additional director in Central govt.. ..patient female 55 year having diagnosed case of ILD on intermittent oxygen supply.... when I inquired detail history of patient she has joint pain and other symptoms in history which mimic vaatrakta symptoms... I don't remember exactly sequence of symptoms.. but when I am taking history ....  my first thought goes towards vaatrakta ... even on diagnosis I have written as udarka of  vaatrakta and I have prescribed all vaatrakta treat ment along with shvas chikitsa.. unfortunately he got transfer out of Delhi and couldn't get follow up of patient.. Another case i have gone through was one article i have gone through was case of ILD due to rheumatoid involvement and scholar has given virechan karma and  given her  details of improvement after  virechan karma in his dyspnea and walk test etc... virechan ultimately a treatment of raktadrishti has brought relief in symptoms of ILD...... I want to share this clinical experience towards concept putforth by giriraj sir reg vaatrakta and lung disease.....

[12/13, 10:10 AM] Dr Bhadresh Nayak, Surat: 

According to the ayurved laxan about any disease list are very large numbers

We have to think and decided how to interpret in patient is dependent on the skills and yukti.

[12/13, 10:10 AM] Prof Giriraj Sharma: 

*Regarding your query a copy paste*

The clinical manifestations of gout-associated lung disease include interstital lung disease, pleural effusion and gouty tophi in the lung. 

Higher levels of meat and seafood consumption are associated with an increased risk of gout so reduced intake of such high-purine-containing foods together with appropriate hypouricaemic drug therapy is important to improve the condition. 

Although our patient represented classic manifestations of gout-associated lung disease we feel that his non-adherence to medical advice may have worsened the outcome.

[12/13, 10:19 AM] pawan madan Dr: 

👏👏👏👏👏

This is very true.

I have also treated such an ILD case but with treatment line of Aamavaata.

And here it is not necessary that in such ILD cases there is a raised uric acid but they can be treated on the lines of Vaatrakta.

🙏🙏

[12/13, 10:21 AM] pawan madan Dr: 

Yes sir

This is quite acceptable.

My point was other.

[12/13, 10:24 AM] Dr Sukhveer Verma: 

Vatrakta n raised uric acid both are different. Uric acid may be raised in vatrakta cases but it is not mandatory.

[12/13, 10:25 AM] Pawan mali Dr.: 

Yes sir .... uric acid may not be always necessary for diagnosis of vaatrakta....

[12/13, 10:26 AM] Dr Sukhveer Verma: 

Rheumatoid arthritis may also be included in vatrakta but there is no raised uric acid

[12/13, 10:28 AM] Pawan mali Dr.: 

 In the south tradition of  kerala all patients of rheumatoid are diagnosed as vaatrakta and treated accordingly if anyone from kerala is in our group ... he may explain in detail about this.

[12/13, 10:29 AM] Dr Sukhveer Verma: 

Vatrakata is broad word which can be used for many allopathy diagnosis.

[12/13, 10:29 AM] Vd V. B. Pandey Basti U. P: 

Basically it's Aam Vish neutralizing managment.

[12/13, 10:29 AM] pawan madan Dr: 

Y e s 

Many many.

[12/13, 10:31 AM] Pawan mali Dr.: 

Yes....  many vessel obliterated   diseases are also treated on the line of vaatrakta...

[12/13, 10:32 AM] Dr Sukhveer Verma: 

In Ayurveda all the treatment are related to metabolic system

*और सही पूछो तो हम आयुर्वेद वाले इस आम के सूत्र से ही अपना काम चला रहे हैं*

[12/13, 10:36 AM] Dr Sukhveer Verma: 

आचार्यों ने फुफ्फुस व्याधि व वातरक्त व्याधि का अलग अलग विवेचन किया है।

चिकित्सा तो हम सबकी एक जैसी ही करते बस दोष ठीक होने चाहिए।

क्या हम त्वक रोगों में वातरक्त के अनुसार चिकित्सा नहीं करते या कर सकते इससे तो त्वक व फुफ्फुस जन्य विकार सब एक जैसे गुणधर्मि होंगे !

[12/13, 10:51 AM] Dr Shashi Jindal:

 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23441475

[12/13, 11:43 AM] Vd Raghuram Shastri, Banguluru: 

Great query for a mind storming discussion sir👌🙏💐

[12/13, 12:03 PM] Vd Raghuram Shastri, Banguluru: 

✅✅✅

The discussion can go ahead if *vatarakta = gout* is accepted. No doubt that most times Vatarakta treatment gives good results in gout. 

But *Vatarakta treatment is also applicable in RA and gives good results* 

Down south, *especially Kerala traditional treatment applies Vatarakta chikitsa principles to treat RA & also extend the treatment lineup to treat gout too* 

This is because *Ashtanga Hrudayam & Sangraha* are widely followed and accepted in Kerala. I don't think they apply *laws of amavata treatment in RA*. *Amavata has been touched upon only in layer treatises*. 

My hypothesis of this concept👇

👉 *Gut level manifestation as explained in samanya amavata lakshanas in Madhava Nidana - Angamarda aruchi.... Pertains to systemic manifestation of RA*

👉 *Pravruddha Amavata lakshanas - Sa kashtah Sarva roganam...* - pertaining to *musculoskeletal manifestation of RA or complicated RA* which is also considered as *Similar to Symptoms of Vagbhatokta vatashonita* 

👉 *Vata pradhana Vatarakta - RA or complicated RA* 

👉 *Rakta pradhana Vatarakta - Gout???*

I just thought of putting forth these points which may help the discussion (may be not). 

But we can take this discussion ahead only if we *equate Vatarakta with gout* and also *limit the discussion to this without added hypothesis of the disease* 

*@Giriraj sir*🙏🙏

*@ Pawan sir*🙏🙏

[12/13, 12:06 PM] Vd Raghuram Shastri, Banguluru: 

*Uttana and Gambhira* may be included in this hypothesis depending on the *level of manifestation of disease and its symptoms*.

*Amavata and Vatashonita lines of treatment are mutually applicable, one to the other and results have been obtained either way*

[12/13, 12:29 PM] Dr. Rituraj Verma: 

वातरक्त 

Gout is basically due to error in metabolism of protine. Uric acid is the product of impaired Agni vyapar.विदाहि and विरूद्ध आहार in वातरक्त निदान, lead to अग्निमांध and formation of excessive uric acid.

Uric acid can be considered as पित्त भाव .

Here it behaves as an आमयुक्त पित्त.gradual increase of पित्त from चय to प्रसर can be seen in rise of uric acid.

रक्त दुष्टि and associate वातकोप leads to a primary joint manifEstation. hance पित्त dominant वातरक्त feature are seen in gout.

दोष- पित्तप्रधान.वातानुबन्ध

दुष्य-रक्त

पित्त - रक्त संमुर्छना

रोगमार्ग मध्यम

[12/13, 1:09 PM] Vd V. B. Pandey Basti U. P: 

Sir It's not  necessary that raised Uric acid  will be prime etiology of Baat Rakta Some of  renal colic Pt.suffiring from regular ashmari formations has also raised Uric Acid

[12/13, 1:17 PM] Prof Giriraj Sharma:

 वातरक्त is not Gout,,,

Gout is a type of वातरक्त

 Increased Uric Acid is not only sign of Gout,,,, 

It Increases in many Diseases,,,,,

🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🌷🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼

[12/13, 1:33 PM] Dr Ashwini Kumar Sood, Ambala: 

ILD is a complex disease, one cannot make its diagnosis without BRONCHOSCOPY/ HRCT/LUNG BIOPSY. IT'S not a bed side examination disease. When ILD is autoimmune RA can coexist. Not all pts with ILD have RA. A pt of RA when treated with methotrexate he may develop ILD. Above a very good clarification is done by DR RAMAY.

[12/13, 1:34 PM] Dr Ashwini Kumar Sood, Ambala: 

True

[12/13, 1:40 PM] Dr Shashi Jindal: 

Lung diseases cause increase in endogenous purines due to tissue hypoxia and increase in uric acid levels in blood. 

Excessive consumption of excess purine containing foods cause increase in uric acid levels. 

Abnormalities in Uric acid metabolism cause increase in uric acid levels in blood.

[12/13, 1:48 PM] Dr Shashi Jindal:

 purine metabolism not uric acid metabolism.

[12/13, 1:52 PM] Dr. Rituraj Verma: 

Yes sir reactivate gout and pseudo gout.

[12/13, 1:54 PM] Dr. Rituraj Verma: 

True sir ji isiliye vaatrakt heading me gout ki ek condition k bare me post kita

[12/13, 2:02 PM] Vd Raghuram Shastri, Banguluru:

 *Gout v/s Copd*

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

Considering *Gout = Vatarakta*

*Hypothesis 1*

While explaining the upadravas of vatarakta, master Charaka tells –

अस्वप्न अरोचक *श्वास* मांसकोथ शिरोग्रहाः।

मूर्च्छाय मद रुक् तृष्णा ज्वर मोह प्रवेपकाः॥

हिक्का पाङ्गुल्य वीसर्प पाक तोद भ्रम क्लमाः।

अङ्गुलीवक्रता स्फोटा दाह मर्म ग्रहार्बुदाः॥

एतैः उपद्रवैः वर्ज्यं मोहेन / मेहेन एकेन वा अपि यत्।च.चि.२९/३१-३३।

*Worth noting* –👇👇

👉 *mention of shwasa*

👉 *shirograha, murcha, mada, moha, bhrama, klama can be due to hypoxia*

👉 *Chakrapani quotes mohena ekena from mula as mehena ekena* - this suggests that meha vis-à-vis presence of only diabetes as an associated complication with gout can make it difficult to treat

👉 ये तु *मेहेन एकेन इति पठन्ति ते मेह वात शोणितयोः विरुद्ध उपक्रमतया* मेह योगेन असाध्यताम् आहुः, वात शोणितस्य हि प्रायेण मधुरशीत उपक्रमः, तद् विपरीतः तु मेहस्येति विरुद्ध उपक्रमता। च्क्रपाणि।

*If meha is associated with vatarakta as complication, then it is incurable or difficult to treat*. This is because both have viruddha upakrama. Here what we need to see is that *diabetics (chronic most of the time) have breathing problems like copd, raised uric acid / gout, altered sensorium (as explained by mada, murcha, moha etc, and most importantly inability of the kidneys to flush out uric acid* .

👉 *Excessive uric acid in the system may not only cause gout but also many systemic complaints like copd etc* which have been explained already by other hon group members since morning. I am only highlighting the classical reference and added dimension to the discussion. So, *Meha – Vatarakta – Shwasa can be taken as a complicated triad* in this context of discussion, *each complicating the other and the treatment of one helping the other condition to recover*.

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

*Hypothesis 2*

रक्त पित्ता अति वृद्ध्या तु पाकम् आशु नियच्छति।

भिन्नं स्रवति वा रक्तं विदग्धं पूयम् एव वा॥

तयोः क्रिया विधातव्या भेद शोधन रोपणैः।

*कुर्याद् उपद्रवाणां च क्रियां स्वां स्वां चिकित्सितात्॥* च.चि.२९/१६१, १६२॥

Summing up the chapter on vatashonita, master Charaka tells (*I am only touching upon the highlighted aspect of shloka*) – *when upadravas are manifested treat them accordingly as per treatment principles explained in the related prakaranas of upadrava ukta vyadhi or lakshana*

*This shows the great wisdom of our Acharyas in emphasizing on* –

👉 Systemic impact of vatarakta (as we have in raised uric acid or vatarakta conditions)

👉 Grave nature of the disease

👉 Possibility of many complications

👉 Need for treating the complication / disease manifested in the form of complication / system or srotas afflicted first

*_This gives a hypothesis that_*

👉 the mentioned upadrava and vatarakta are interrelated at that point of disease status

👉 importance in addressing the complication first in comparison to addressing the main disease

👉 when the upadrava is treated, the vatarakta symptoms too may reduce (another hypothesis from this draws that, when vata rakta is properly treated, the complications might not occur)

*_Getting a gist of these hypotheses taking vatarakta and shwasa vis-à-vis copd as interrelated pathologies_* –

👉 Treating vatarakta might not allow manifestation of shwasa (so as other complications)

👉 Vatarakta chikitsa is applicable to handle the complications of vatarakta, if the complications are of mild to moderate quantum

👉 Treatment of shwasa, if it occurs as a complication, will / might reduce vatarakta symptoms

💐💐💐💐💐💐💐

*This is my humble submission to the elite panel of KS. I will add to this if / as and when I get time and ideas* . 

🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏

( *#Giriraj sir* 🙏)

[12/13, 2:11 PM] Prof Giriraj Sharma: 

प्रश्न पुनः वो ही है

Uric Acid Increasing  वातरक्त में कैशोर गुग्गल आदि योग वातरक्त के  साथ यूरिक एसिड को भी कम करता है ।

क्या ये ही योग कैशोर गुग्गल आदि ऑब्स्ट्रीक्ट पल्मोनरी डिजीज आदि में भी यूरिक एसिड को कम करेगा ।

*सोचिये अगर हम यह कहे कि* 

कैशोर गुग्गल यूरिक एसिड को कम करता है ,

हम कहे कि गिलोय या पपीता पत्र स्वरस प्लेटलेट्स को बढ़ाता है ,

सुदर्शन चूर्ण RBC को टूटने से रोकता है 

हम कहे कि पुनर्नवा मंडूर  क्रिटनीन को  कम करता है,,,,

इस सम्प्राप्ति विशेष से ,,,,

इस योग विशेष से ,,,,

आयुर्वेद में उल्लेखित रोग आज के रोग नही है ,,बल्कि आज के रोगों के समूह है ,,,,

और औषधि भी , योग भी इन पर आज के डायग्नोसिस बेस पर कार्य करती है 

🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🌷🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼

[12/13, 2:27 PM] Dr Chandra Shekhar Sharma: 

Pulmonary hypoxia promotes purine catabolism, leading to increased production of UA.

[12/13, 2:32 PM] Dr Chandra Shekhar Sharma: 

High levels of lung oxidative stress and inflammation, circulating UA levels may be elevated as a result of lung tissue damage.

Despite its anti-oxidative characteristics, Uric Acid activates leukocytes. Activated leukocytes cause damage to vascular endothelial cells.

hyperuricemia-induced endothelial dysfunction is possibly associated with impaired pulmonary function.

🙏

[12/13, 2:34 PM] Dr. Abhishek Kumar Singh:

 Sir is incresed uric acid level affect heart function ??

[12/13, 2:37 PM] Dr Chandra Shekhar Sharma: 

Hyperuricemia is known to be associated with cardiovascular disease. But the role of serum uric acid as an independent risk factor for CVD remains unclear till now.

[12/13, 2:51 PM] Dr. Rituraj Verma: 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5713715/

[12/13, 3:03 PM] Dr Shashi Jindal: 

kaishora guggul works on inflammatory pathogenisis, may it be  vaat rakta, lung disease or other tissues.

[12/13, 3:05 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

मुझे लगता है के इस तरह ये प्रश्न प्रश्न ही रहेगा

और हमे इस तरह से नही सोचना चाहिए।

🙏

[12/13, 3:06 PM] Samta Tomar Dr Jmngr: 

Complete my agree with you.

[12/13, 3:07 PM] Samta Tomar Dr Jmngr: 

🙏🏻sir

[12/13, 3:48 PM] Dr Shashi Jindal: 

Raktavrita vaata is also treated on same line of treatment as Vaata rakta ch chi 28.

If fuffusa are formed from rakta faina, when rakta is dooshit it will create morbidity in lungs also, this way you are on right track.

[12/13, 3:52 PM] Dr Ashwini Kumar Sood, Ambala: Which lung disease ?

[12/13, 3:53 PM] Prof Giriraj Sharma: 

जरूर आचार्य 

सारे डायग्नोसिस तो इसी आधार पर हो रहे है, 

RA factor Positive

Uric acid increased

ECG,,,

Platelets Amount low

जब निदान इनके आधार पर कर रहे है तो इस पर विचार क्यो नही करना चाहिए ,,,,

[12/13, 3:53 PM] Dr Ashwini Kumar Sood, Ambala:  TB ?

[12/13, 4:03 PM] Vd V. B. Pandey Basti U. P: 

I think Kaishor  Guggule  will be Best choice for acute Bronchitis instead of Tuberculosis.

[12/13, 4:09 PM] Dr Ashwini Kumar Sood, Ambala: 

KG in lung diseases is a HYPOTHESIS and it will remain so untill practically validated.

[12/13, 4:15 PM] Dr Ashwini Kumar Sood, Ambala: 

In Our Ayurvedic Hospitals wards are always full of pts with (श्वास रोगीs) COPD  this concept can be tried. Only some pts with terminal respiratory failure may have raised SUA levels which need hypoxia to be corrected respond and raised SUA levels need no Rx

[12/13, 4:16 PM] Vd V. B. Pandey Basti U. P: Please elaborate  I am not under standing.

[12/13, 4:20 PM] Dr Ashwini Kumar Sood, Ambala:

 Drji KG is not a 1st , 2 nd or 3rd line of choice drug in respiratory diseases.

[12/13, 4:25 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

Sir

When diagnosis are made based on these then these are certainly modern diagnosis.

And if some one is making a diagnosing vaatarakt based on uric acid then really it's a matter of serious discussion.

🙏

[12/13, 4:29 PM] pawan madan Dr:

 You have rightly pointed out Raghu ji.

E.g.....Generally...

Initial stages of RA cases...... Only Ajeern chikitsa works.

Acute attack of RA..... Vaatarakt chikitsa works.

Chronic stage of RA with deformities.... Only Vaatashaman with rasayan works.

[12/13, 4:30 PM] pawan madan Dr:

 Uttaan vatrakta chikitsa may be applied to many skin diseases.

🙏

[12/13, 4:32 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

This is a routine explanation sir.

[12/13, 4:33 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

👍🏻👍🏻

Can this mean that invreased uric amit treatment can help in the treatment of COPD like conditions ?

[12/13, 4:42 PM] Dr Ashwini Kumar Sood, Ambala: 

Heathy born infants either on mother's milk or on formula feeds and younger children (age ranging between 1 to 6 yrs ) coming with a symptomatology of उर्ध्वगत अम्लपित्त (erucations, loss of appetite, vomitings, inadequate wt gain) whereas the above mentioned disease is not of this age group. What can be the treatment guide lines ?

[12/13, 4:44 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

🙏🙏🙏🙏

....Here shwas is a complication in the later stage of vaatarakta when the person succumbs to milti system failure due to severity of the disease

... Mehen eken has been said to explain one of the many severe complications

...Increased uric acid as hetu of COPD.....I still need to explore this......Vice a versa is okk

...✅Mentioned upadrav and vaatrakta relation...👌

...When vaatrakta is properly treated then complications will not occur *but when there are complications like shwas they can't be treated with treatment of vaatrakta, they have to be treated as per their chikitsa sutra mentioned in different chapters* this has been texted clearly.

Raghu sir...🙏

For your kind review...🙏

[12/13, 4:54 PM] pawan madan Dr:

 @⁨Prof Giriraj Sharma⁩ sir

इस पर आपके विचार अपेक्षित हैं।

🙏🙏😌

[12/13, 5:06 PM] Prof Giriraj Sharma: 

नमस्कार आचार्य 

फेन वात प्राधान्य ही होगा 

आप इसे कफवातज कह सकते है ।

स्वविवेक, स्वानुभूत भिन्न है एव शास्त्र सम्मत दृष्टिकोण भिन्न है ।

🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🌷🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼

[12/13, 5:12 PM] Vd Raghuram Shastri, Banguluru: 

🙏🙏🙏🙏

....Here shwas is a complication in the later stage of vaatarakta when the person succumbs to milti system failure due to severity of the disease

*Right sir, that's what I hv mentioned. But when we HV reverse hypothesis, the physician treating Vatarakta, should know what complications might occur in a given patient, from strong therotical knowledge. Example, in the ongoing discussion, if as a physician if I find that the Vatarakta patient is susceptible to get respiratory diseases, or a clue from past history telling that he is prone for respiratory disorders, my job is to prevent it. Of all the complications, respiratory complications might be more in this patient. Therefore I will plan my Vatarakta chikitsa accordingly*

......... *Predictive medicine*

... Mehen eken has been said to explain one of the many severe complications

*But I was emphasizing the explanation of teeka. No doubt it is one of the complications, but it is the single most important complication, by explanation, I feel*

...Increased uric acid as hetu of COPD..... I still need to explore this...... Vice a versa is okk.

*Its a hypothesis sir. We need to explore as you said. I may be wrong. I haven't stressed in it as you see. For the other way around, My mother in law is a classical example of this. She is chronic diabetic, weak kidneys, undergone angio twice, bypass once, frequent breathing problems since 2-3years with fluid accumulation and varied sensorium. It goes to emergency many times. Whenever it happens her uric acids are high. Hv seen many more cases like this.*

...✅Mentioned upadrav and vaatrakta relation...👌

...When vaatrakta is properly treated then complications will not occur

*Preventive medicine on the basis of comprehensive knowledge of possible complications in susceptible cases.... again a hypothesis*

 but when there are complications like shwas they can't be treated with treatment of vaatrakta, they have to be treated as per their chikitsa sutra mentioned in different chapters this has been texted clearly.

*Yes sir, reference tells clearly. That's what I was trying to tell*

Pawan sir...🙏🙏

[12/13, 5:13 PM] Vd Raghuram Shastri, Banguluru:

 No doubt sir... absolutely✅✅✅✅✅

[12/13, 5:19 PM] Vd V. B. Pandey Basti U. P:

 Sir if we read Sam Dosh or aam  vish in place of vaat  Rakta it will be quite easily  co related.

[12/13, 5:32 PM] Dr Ashwini Kumar Sood, Ambala:

 Good explanation 👌🏼

But the example you have given is not matching the HYPOTHESIS. 

She must be  having uncontrolled DM/मधुमेह which because of diabetic microangiopathy  damaged kidneys causing it's compromised function, raised SUA levels, CAD again' diabetic microangiopathy damaged coronary arteries, it's pulmonary edema which causes exertional  dyspnea due to due to diabetic cardiomyopathy forcing pt for emergency hospital admissions. Exertional dyspnea is not COPD. SO no vatrakta history in this pt. Don't take it otherwise.

[12/13, 5:37 PM] Dr. Ramteerth Sharma, Ujjain: 

मेरा अभी भी यही विनम्र मत है यह सब एक बुद्धि विलास का हिस्सा है। वात रक्त की चिकित्सा में ऐसी औषधियों का प्रयोग होता है जो त्रिदोष शामक हैं और कम से कम ऊष्ण तो नहीं ।

परंतु फुफ्फुस रोग से संबंधित होने वाले समस्त स्वास्कास अथवा का फावृत उदान की स्थिति में निश्चित रूप से ऊष्ण युगों का ही प्रयोग होता है।

 त्रिलोकी चिंतामणि रस

 रस सिंदूर 

समीर पन्नग 

श्वास कास चिंतामणि 

विशाल गोदंती टंकण सितोपलादि तालीसदी इत्यादि का प्रयोग करने पर ही कफ से संबंधित विकारों का नाश होता है ।

अतः उसका निर्माण जोकि रक्त फेन बताया गया है वहां पर वास्तव में हमें कफ का ही आश्रय करना चाहिए।

[12/13, 5:38 PM] Dr. Ramteerth Sharma, Ujjain: 

परिकल्पना और सिद्धांतों की चिकित्सा की वास्तविकता के अंतर को हमें समझना चाहिए शास्त्रों में जो चिकित्सा सिद्धांत दिए हैं वह गहन परिकल्पना के पश्चात ही दिए हैं

[12/13, 5:41 PM] Dr Ashwini Kumar Sood, Ambala: 

No question of going against SHASTRAS .

[12/13, 5:43 PM] Vd Raghuram Shastri:🌷🌷👍🏻🙏🏼👍🏻🌷🌷

[12/13, 2:19 PM] Dr. Arun Rathi, Akola: 

👌🏻👍🏻🌹🌹🌹, Banguluru: 

I hv not mentioned the case as an example sir. I have also not mentioned the word Vatarakta therein. Since Pawan sir had mentioned that *increased uric acid as hetu for COPD... I still need to explore... vice versa is okay*... I was just giving the instance of this case *for the vice versa case*. She is my mother in law and I know every bit of her problem. The sequence of events you HV given is applicable for such conditions sir. I hv also not mentioned that *Ex.Dyspnea is COPD*.

There is nothing to take it otherwise sir. Your comments are always welcome. I thought it wise to give clarifications of what I hv written.😊🙏🙏

[12/13, 5:47 PM] Dr Ashwini Kumar Sood, Ambala: 

Your explanations nd clarifications are golden words for GR members 👌🏼🌸

[12/13, 5:54 PM] Dr Shashi Jindal:

 no sir it does not mean this, connection of hyperuricemia as cause of COPD or ILD is still not found.

[12/13, 5:58 PM] Dr Shashi Jindal: 

yes sir we do not use KG for respiratory disorders, even use septilin for bronchitis not KG.

[12/13, 6 PM] Dr. Neetu Agrawal: 

Yes, we have many more good medicines for respiratory disorders.. Kaishor guggulu has different indications.

[12/13, 6:04 PM] Prof. Deep Narayan Pandey: 

I think, the most significant risk factor  for COPD in contemporary times are two--- long-term cigarette smoking and long term exposure to air pollutants (both in ambient air as well as industrial point-source)

[12/13, 6:06 PM] Dr Ashwini Kumar Sood, Ambala: 

Your choice Dr,  no compulsion from side, just a cordial discussion.

[12/13, 6:08 PM] Dr Ashwini Kumar Sood, Ambala: 

U/s for PCOS

[12/13, 6:08 PM] Vd V. B. Pandey Basti U. P: 

no  doubt  septilin is good  but Kashore Guggle is far more efficient in any sort of acute infections. Well it may be atisyokti  but i will tell a quation Kahaa Raja bhoj  Kahaa  gangu.

[12/13, 6:21 PM] Dr Chandra Shekhar Sharma: 

Smoking inflames and irritates the lungs. Even one or two cigarettes cause irritation and coughing. Smoking also can destroy your lungs and lung tissue. This decreases the number of air spaces and blood vessels in the lungs, resulting in less oxygen to critical parts of body.

Even second hand smoking is dangerous.🙏

[12/13, 6:26 PM] Dr. Neetu Agrawal: 

Sir.. Acute infections of respiratory tract ?

[12/13, 7:11 PM] Vaidya Hiten Vaja:

 Mahasrotas ki swasangya AAM PAKWASHAY rup me nirdeshit hai...

Fuffus ko Ayurved me swatantra astitva wala nahi mana hai...

Pure charak me fuffus shabda hi nahi liya hai...

Hriday char prakaren hai

Pranvah mool

Rasavah mool

Pranayatan rup

Mahat rupen

Paraspar anugrah se pranabhisaran karke dehdharan me hetu bante hai...

[12/13, 7:13 PM] Vaidya Hiten Vaja:

 Prayashah hamara asamrthya hi pratispardhi ki jeet ka karan banta hai...

Pratispardhi ko apane tantra ki paridhi me lakar hi  nigrahsthan me stir kiya ja sakta hai..😄

[12/13, 7:29 PM] Dr Ajay Singh: 

तस्य स्थानं करौ पादावङ्गुल्यः सर्वसन्धयः|

कृत्वाऽऽदौ हस्तपादे तु मूलं देहे विधावति||१२||

सौक्ष्म्यात् सर्वसरत्वाच्च पवनस्यासृजस्तथा|

तद्द्रवत्वात् सरत्वाच्च देहं गच्छन् सिरायनैः||१३||

पर्वस्वभिहतं क्षुब्धं वक्रत्वादवतिष्ठते| ch.chi29/12-13

[12/13, 7:31 PM] Dr Ajay Singh: 

Due to vakrata of sandhis (पर्वस्वभिहतं क्षुब्धं) pathology begins in small joint.

[12/13, 7:33 PM] Dr Ajay Singh: 

उत्तानमथ गम्भीरं द्विविधं तत् प्रचक्षते !

[12/13, 7:37 PM] Prof. Surendra A. Soni: 

It's very vast question and we are to understand both pathologies then only some conclusion may be drawn.

First we should see the description of shwas roga in Charak......

रजसा धूमवाताभ्यां शीतस्थानाम्बुसेवनात् ।

व्यायामाद्ग्राम्यधर्माध्वरूक्षान्नविषमाशनात् ॥११॥

आमप्रदोषादानाहाद्रौक्ष्यादत्यपतर्पणात् ।

दौर्बल्यान्मर्मणो घाताद्द्वन्द्वाच्छुद्ध्यतियोगतः ॥१२॥

*अतीसारज्वरच्छर्दिप्रतिश्यायक्षतक्षयात् ।*

*रक्तपित्तादुदावर्ताद्विसूच्यलसकादपि ॥१३॥*

*पाण्डुरोगाद्विषाच्चैव प्रवर्तेते गदाविमौ ।*

निष्पावमाषपिण्याकतिलतैलनिषेवणात् ॥१४॥

पिष्टशालूकविष्टम्भिविदाहिगुरुभोजनात् ।

जलजानूपपिशितदध्यामक्षीरसेवनात् ॥१५॥

अभिष्यन्द्युपचाराच्च श्लेष्मलानां च सेवनात् ।

कण्ठोरसः प्रतीघाताद्विबन्धैश्च पृथग्विधैः ॥१६॥

1. Almost all diseases terminally affect the Pranvah srotas leading to Shwas-roga. I ve highlighted in Bold. 

2. Other Nidanas mentioned in shloka no. 14, 15, 16 highlight other Nidanas that are similar to Vatarakta Nidana.

3. In Lungs- as per anatomical view....

 A. Lung parenchymal tissue (combinedly known as anga- pratyanga of Koshthanga)

B. Bronchial tree close to Pranvah Stores.

C. Vasculature represent the Ras-rakta samvahan

D. Lymphatic close to Avalambak-kapha.

4. You emphasis on शोणितफेनप्रभवः फुफ्फुस: that is quite right. But the Sthayi-dhatu formation in context to lung completed before birth in case of fuffusa, it usually not active metabolically as 

स्रोतांसि खलु परिणाममापद्यमानानां धातूनामभिवाहीनि भवन्त्ययनार्थेन ॥३॥

5. We have well mentioned and established concept of Dhatugatatva for every disease hence in context to vatarakta if jeevarakta/shonitadushti are there because of any reason, fuffusa may get affected mainly because of vascular causes like hemoptysis in Good pasture syndrome or in Raktapitta. COPD may proceed to Dhatugatatva like other diseases but here starting point is pranvah srotas not the vascular system, but Vascular system may get involved later as dhatugatatva progresses. (That's why classical Virechana karma is indicated in Tamak shwasa.)

We are to establish the level of pathogenesis first then to decide which line of treatment is applicable.

On the basis of utpadak-dhatu of a organ there is definitive samvay sambandha with organ specific.

Prof. Giriraj ji !!

My efforts.🙏🏻🌹🌷

[12/13, 8:07 PM] Prof. Surendra A. Soni:

 आचार्य गिरिराज जी ।।

प्रत्युत्तर की अपेक्षा । 

🙏🏻🌷🌹

[12/13, 8:15 PM] Prof Giriraj Sharma: 

आचार्य नमस्कार

मैं तो सर्वग्राही हूँ,,,,

शास्त्र में असहमति कैसे हो सकती है ,,,

हर दृष्टिकोण श्रेष्ठ ही होता है ।।

आप का मन्तव्य भी श्रेष्ठ ही है ।।

🙏🏼🙏🏼😊🌹😊🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼

[12/13, 8:44 PM] Prof. Surendra A. Soni: 

रक्त फेन में रक्त का पांचभौतिकत्व विचारें तो शंका का निवारण हो सकता है । alveoli structure is place of gaseous exchange similar to structure of fen hence upaman praman was used to describe. 

आचार्य रामतीर्थजी ।

🌻🌹🌷

[12/13, 8:55 PM] Prof. Surendra A. Soni:

 मांस मल (पार्थिव मल) संज्ञा पित्त मल की अपेक्षा उचिततर हो सकती है ।

ऋतुराज जी ।

[12/13, 9:19 PM] Vaidyaraj Subhash Sharma, Delhi:

 *very well & nicely explained Dr. Soni !*

         👌👍👌👌👌

[12/13, 9:21 PM] Vaidyaraj Subhash Sharma, Delhi:

 *आयुर्वेद में उल्लेखित रोग आज के रोगों के समूह है । 👌👌👌 अधिकतर रोगों में ऐसा भी है आचार्य गिरिराज जी।*

[12/13, 9:22 PM] Vaidyaraj Subhash Sharma, Delhi: 👍👍👍👍

[12/13, 9:23 PM] Vaidyaraj Subhash Sharma, Delhi:

 *पवन जी, आपका सैद्धान्तिक और clinical पक्ष 👌👌👏👏👍👍*

[12/13, 9:28 PM] Vaidyaraj Subhash Sharma, Delhi: 👌👌👌👍👍🙏

[12/13, 9:28 PM] Vd Raghuram Shastri:

 🌷👍🏻🙏🏼👍🏻🌷🌷

[12/13, 2:19 PM] Dr. Arun Rathi, Akola: 

👌🏻👍🏻🌹🌹🌹, Banguluru: 

Nice perspective sir💐💐🙏🙏🙏. 

You are right. It's a wide topic. Many aspects need to be addressed.

[12/13, 9:29 PM] Vd Raghuram Shastri, Banguluru: 

Thanks Guruji🙏🙏💐💐

[12/13, 9:45 PM] Dr. Satish Jaimini Choumu, Jaipur: 

आचार्य आपकी बात में सारतत्त्व पर्याप्त है फैन की उत्पत्ति का निमित्त कारण वात है उपादान तो कफ ही होगा और श्वास रोग का समवायी भी वात कफ ही कहा गया है चिकित्सा भी वात कफ प्रधान ही बताई है लेकिन पित्त का कदाचित अनुबंध है और यहाँ  srotodusti संग या अतिप्रवृति  वात या कफ जन्य ही है

[12/13, 9:49 PM] Dr. Rituraj Verma:

 उरक्षत में रक्त मूत्रता लक्षण आया है 

इसलिए भी संबंध बन सकता है क्या गुरुवर ?

[12/13, 10:04 PM] D C Katoch Sir:

 🙏🏽 सुष्ठु मन्तव्य इति। मैं यह समझता हूँ कि वातरक्त में वस्तुतः रक्त के किट्ट की दुष्टि होती है और जिससे आश्रय-आश्रयी भाव के कारण रक्त दूषित प्रतीत होता है। तदर्थ रक्तप्रसादन व रक्तनिरहर्ण चिकित्सा ही वातरक्त में प्रभावकारी होती है शामक चिकित्सा नहीं ।

[12/13, 10:22 PM] Prof. Surendra A. Soni: 

1. क्षते-

विहारज अतियोग-

👇🏻👇🏻

उरोरुक्शोणितच्छर्दिः कासो वैशेषिकः क्षते ।

2. क्षीणे-(स्त्रीषु चातिप्रसक्तस्य रूक्षाल्पप्रमिताशिनः ॥८॥)

👇🏻👇🏻

क्षीणे सरक्तमूत्रत्वं पार्श्वपृष्ठकटिग्रहः ॥१३॥

It Seems that atimaithun is cause of Raktamutrata if you see the sequence.

Dr. Rituraj ji !

[12/13, 10:29 PM] Prof Mamata Bhagwat: 

Brilliant Soni Sir👏🏻💐🙏🏻

[12/13, 10:31 PM] Prof Mamata Bhagwat: 

Great analysis as always Raghu Sir💐👏🏻🙏🏻

[12/13, 10:37 PM] Dr. Rituraj Verma: 

अति उत्तम 🙏🙏

[12/13, 10:49 PM] Prof Mamata Bhagwat: 

Excellent topic raised for discussion indeed...

Some of the points which may need attention...

In vatarakta, 

The basic pathology is Rakta Avarana to vata and later vata and Rakta antoniya avarana. 

Dushta rakta does vriddhi of vata and vice versa also true. The vata marga is affected. *Nihanti*

The causative factors and pathology of shwasa are entirely different. Although shwasadi lakshanas are mentioned in the context of vatarakta, it is to be noted that Pranavaha srotas is not at all adhishtana for vatarakta. 

Vatarakta - vyana vata pradhana

ILD- predominantly pranavata. 

Ama chikitsa may be helpful in both conditions. But rakta mokshana, basti whether help in ILD?

COPD involves predominantly Pranavaha srotas and hridaya marma. Hridaya involvement in vatarakta is only in upadrava avastha. 

Raise in uric acid level in COPD is only a relative manifestation due to hypoxia. But in vatarakta raised uric acid level is seen from the beginning. 

Acharya Giriraj ji🙏🏻

[12/13, 11:14 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

Very nicely explained sir.

This is good explanation of Vaatrakta relating with lung disease and it is awesome.

And it has nothing to with raised uric acid.

👍🏻👍🏻👌🏻👌🏻👌🏻

[12/13, 11:21 PM] Dr Kapil kapoor: 

Giriraj Sir, if we take this concept in reverse order....

Swasakuthar Ras will act in cases of vatarakta ?

In my understanding it will not be a good choice.

Likewise...ksheerbala thailam of vatarakta rogadhikar will not be a good choice in lungs diseases.

🙏🏻💐

[12/13, 11:22 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

Only a small modification...

Raised s uric is found in only few cliNical presentations of vaatarakt....Not all...

🙏🙏💐

[12/13, 11:25 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

Kapil bro

Even reverse can be useful.

Like shwaskuthar can be used in some cases of skin disease (may be uttaan vaatrakt).

But here it is about vaatarakta and phuphuss samprati and not about raised s uric acid treatment.

🙏🙏

[12/13, 11:30 PM] Dr Kapil kapoor:

 Sir.... if that is considered then....

Jwara chikitsa can also be considered in various diseases.... from 1st to 30th chapter.

These concepts are conditional only. Conditional chikitsa sutras mentioned in a disorder are applicable in other rogas as well. 

All are interconnected.

🙏🏻

[12/13, 11:30 PM] pawan madan Dr: 

Yes

Sure....👍🏻👍🏻

[12/13, 11:40 PM] Dr Ashwini Kumar Sood, Ambala: 

Forming a शास्त्र based HYPOTHESIS and CONCEPT is a bold task. But number of pts where it is applicable are less. We can give relief to a pt of emphysema but can't cure him because of chronic nature of his pathoge genesis  similarly, it is difficult to even diagnose a pt of ILD as asking him for BRONCHOSCOPY OR HRCT as we get a ready made diagnosis of such cases.

[12/13, 11:56 PM] Dr Kapil kapoor:

 There are other examples of sutra overlapping...

Rakta pitta chikitsa 🔁 asrugdara chikitsa

Raktapitta chikitsa 🔁 Shukra dosha chikitsa

Vatarakta chi. 🔁 Kushtha chi.

Kshataksheena chi. 🔁 Rajyakshma chi. 

Likewise many more. 

vatarakta & Raktapitta have many things in common if we talk Clinically as the dhatu involved is common but dushti is of different  type .

So certainly at some stages the conditional  chikitsa sutras can have wider application. So is in the hypothesis raised at your end.

My small understanding 🙏🏻💐

[12/14, 8:44 AM] Dr Shashi Jindal:

 👍🏼👌👌Hikka shwasa roga, utpatti is from pitt sthana, "pittasthanam udbhavau" if not treated do upashoshana of hridya sthita rasadinaam dhatunaam. 👍🏼🙏🏼

[12/14, 9:02 AM] Dr Shashi Jindal:

 Good morning sir, this is the difference, difference in  rakta faina(vaat kafa yukta) nourishes fuffus) and pitt (including uric acid) kitt of rakta(ushan, sooksham, teekshana drava- cause of inflammatory pathology). Both are totally different. 👍🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼💐

[12/14, 9:05 AM] D C Katoch Sir: 

Right

[12/14, 10:04 AM] Dr Shashi Jindal:

 very informative, 🙏🏼🙏🏼💐💐

[12/14, 10:11 AM] Dr Shashi Jindal:

 Aayurved Saar Sangrah phal shruti for Kaishora Guggul, khansi is one indication, it may be pittaja kaas. Best for vaat rakta, kushtha, rakta dushti . 🙏🏼







**************************************************************************

Above discussion held on 'Kaysampraday" a Famous WhatsApp -discussion-group  of  well known Vaidyas from all over the India. 

Compiled & edited by

Dr.Surendra A. Soni

M.D.,PhD (KC) 
Professor & Head

P.G. DEPT. OF KAYACHIKITSA

Govt. Akhandanand Ayurveda College

Ahmedabad, GUJARAT, India.

Email: surendraasoni@gmail.com

Mobile No. +91 9408441150